Help identifying Warmaster weapons

[Ahzek451]

 

 

Can someone please me identify the 2 cannon looking weapons on step 56 (2 cannon lookin' guns on the sides of the head) instructions(see photo below) ? I can't for the life of me google-fu them. I keep getting the answer of Mauler bolt cannons, but they don't look like Mauler bolt cannons and I believe the only Mauler bolt cannon is one on its butt. 

I am basically trying to figure out what all the small secondary weapons this things has around its body. You got the missile launchers/twin las at the knees, the 2 twin lascannons on its back and the single Mauler bolt cannon on the tush. And of course the 4 carapace guns which are those anti-air or mortar guns. 



Main guns:
ARMS- x2 Suzerain-Class Plasma Destructors
ABOVE HEAD- Revelator Missile Launcher
TOP OF ARMS- x2 Turbo-laser Destructors (or Apoc Missile Launchers, Inferno Guns, Vulcan Mega Bolters, Melta Cannons, Plasma Blastguns).

SECONDARY
KNEES- x2 Ardex-Defensor Twin las or Missile Launchers
SIDES of HEAD - x2 ??????
REAR PELVIS - Ardex-Defensor Mauler bolt cannon
REAR BACK - x2 Ardex-Defensor Twin Lascannons
TOP CARAPACE - x4 twin linked Ardex-defensor Autocannons OR x4 Ardex-Defensor Bombard Turrets

Edited August 13 by Ahzek451

[Ahzek451]

Just curious, been a few days and the topic show zero views. Making sure this isn't glitching or something and others cannot see it. 

[Captain Idaho]

I haven't been able to log on due to some sort of website based techno curse and I suspect others have had similar.

 

Ardex Defensor cannons in the rules for Adeptus Titanicus, lumping all the weapons as the same...

 

In Legions Imperialis the front facing are Ardex Defensor Mauler bolt cannons, specifically different to the lascannons which are rear facing.

 

So my answer is likely mauler bolt cannons.

 

However, they do indeed look like battle cannons right.

[Ahzek451]

I noticed a lot of connection and slowdown issues myself.

 

OK, Im not going crazy then(at least not with this). But it has been driving me nutz. Ive looked up and down, left and right across the internet and and across publications(titanicus and LI) and it kinda astounds me that these 2 cannons are considered the same as bolt cannons. The same defensive weapons on the armpits of a warlord and the butt of the warmaster that clearly look the same....like techy super heavy bolters. And then you get these 2 cannons on the warmaster that look a lot more like battle cannons and I dont ever see anyone talking about it. Call me neurotic , but this seems like a notable oversight. I know as secondary defensive weapons, there level of importance wont mean much to many but...I like these details. Its just weird. And seems like an overlooked detail. 

[Captain Idaho]

It does look overlooked. Or handwaved away for space saving or "well it's just a front facing Ardex Defensor cannons".

 

Annoying as they should definitely be battle cannons.

[Griefbringer]

This thread got me inspired to take a look at how the secondary weapons on titans are handled in the Legions Imperialis rulebook, and it seems that they were handled in a rather generic way, sharing the same profiles across the various titan classes. I presume that the designer(s) tasked with the task of transferring the existing titans in were mainly focused on the big titan-class weapons than the smaller secondary systems (in comparison on tanks the various sponson and pintle-mounted weapons are handled in more detail).

 

1.) Ardex-defensor mauler bolt cannon turrets are identical on Warbringer, Warlord and Warmaster class titans, with short range and all around arc of fire.

 

2.) Ardex-defensor lascannon turrets, with their rear firing arc, are identically shared between Warlord and Warmaster class titans.

 

3.) Anvillus pattern defense batteries, with all around arc of fire and Skyfire trait, are identically shared between Warbringer and Warmaster class titans.

 

4.) Ardex-defensor bombard turrets are the only ones that are exclusive, in this case to Warmaster class.

 

Looking at pictures of Warmaster titan, those two guns on both sides of the head certainly look a bit like battlecannons, and the location they are mounted on does not really look ideal for close range anti-infantry weaponry. I guess in house rules they could be handled as a pair of forward-facing battlecannon, in addition to the other existing armament - though the Warmaster is not exactly lacking in firepower (or void shields, for that matter).

 

I presume that back in the day when Warmaster model was designed, the secondary weapons layout and design may have been more driven by the Rule of Cool than about concerns on how those weapons would be rules-wise handled in Legions Imperialis (which was a couple of years away from release at the time).

[Ahzek451]

Spot on woth your weapon call outs. 

 

I do think in the case of the warmaster, this is simply an effect of the model and lore being designed for the titanicus scale first, before a 28mm scale.

 

When GW introduced the resin warlord, they kinda had to give more of an effort in describing and giving rules for the defensive weapons it had, especially as it mattered a lot more at the 28mm scale. With the warmaster not getting(and possibly never) a 28mm version, it seems GW didn't feel like bothering to get into the nitty gritty of it all. I disnt see much in the LI book, and I never found anything in the titanicus books either. 

 

Which...even then astounds me. Im not sure if it speaks to laziness, GW's slippage in lore quality, an oversight, or what....but it seems very weird that in neither Titanicus, LI, or any other publication they didnt go all out in lore dumpage(especially with such a massive, new titan introduced) and give us a nerd level of extensive details about this massive machine that you would THINK would call out what those cannons were specifically. 

 

It makes me feel like..in the design process the model designer thought, "cool, ill add cannons here". Then when it was handed off to the lore and rule guys they go "hey, what are these?". "*shrugs* I dunno, the designer never said." "Screw it, just call them mauler bolt cannons" "dont they look different though?"  "Hey man, they dont pay me enough to care, move on".

 

I would like to dive deeper however. Instinctively I do see battle cannons...but after looking for awhile, I wonder if the barrel is too short...or it looks more in common with another cannon-like weapon in the imperial guard arsenal. Id love to flesh this thing out more. Doing GW 's job for then I suppose lol.

[Ahzek451]

They dont look particularly small or big. Id like to take a knight battle cannon and hold it next to it. 

[Lathe Biosas]

There's plenty of Titan/Imperial Mecha information that's never been filled in...

 

From the question of how a pilot gets into or out of certain Knights (see the Moriax Armiger as one example)... to the secret workings of Legio Sinister

 

 

Remember the Legio Sinister (aka the Psi Titans)? They have their own Knight House: House Sinister that tools around with them.

 

How they work, or what they look like or how they're armed are all a mystery.

[Ahzek451]

I think the key point here is that we are discussion something that has a model with no clean indication what a certain weapon is on said model. 

[Lathe Biosas]

7 minutes ago, Ahzek451 said:

I think the key point here is that we are discussion something that has a model with no clean indication what a certain weapon is on said model. 

 

There's a bunch of models like that. 

 

Look at the Space Marine Repulsor, you have a conglomeration of random weapons that are grouped together under one "array."

[Ahzek451]

Ok....but I know what those weapons are. GW has had a list of what each of those are.

Edited August 21 by Ahzek451

[Griefbringer]

2 hours ago, Ahzek451 said:

I would like to dive deeper however. Instinctively I do see battle cannons...but after looking for awhile, I wonder if the barrel is too short...or it looks more in common with another cannon-like weapon in the imperial guard arsenal.

 

There are of course other battle cannon -like weapons. Forge World used to produce (maybe they still do?) Leman Russs Conqueror, which was armed with a shorter version of battle cannon, called Conqueror cannon, firing smaller shells.

 

Speaking of Leman Russ battle cannons, I checked the dimensions of the ones on Legions Imperialis models, and the part of the battle cannon that extends outside turret is around 11 mm long, measuring ca. 2 mm wide closer to the turret and ca. 1 mm wide farther away.

 

I also managed to locate this rather in-depth article about building a Warmaster titan (on Chaosbunker website):

 

https://www.chaosbunker.de/en/2021/05/05/review-adeptus-titanicus-warmaster-titan-with-plasma-destructors/

 

About half-way through there is the following image, which seems to show the cannons we are discussing:

 

 

Assuming that the grid in the background consists of 10 mm squares, then the length of the barrel protruding outside the titan hull is around 10 mm, or pretty close to that on the Leman Russ tank. While the overall shape of the gun does not exactly match with the Leman Russ battle cannon (there is e.g. a support underneath on the Warmaster one), the general dimensions seem close enough that I would be willing to classify it as a battle cannon (just a bit different design than the one mounted on Leman Russ). And I do consider myself moderately pedantic at times.

 

As for comparison with knight battle cannons, keep in mind that with those the whole cannon mechanism is exposed, unlike with Leman Russ where big part of the gun (including the breech) are somewhere inside the tower.

[Ahzek451]

Thanks Griefbringer thst was very useful. Im inclined to agree with you.

 

I did manage to get a picture of a knight battle cannon vs the warmaster.  Agreed. Not the same. But you think it looks closer in length to the regular battle cannon over the conquerer?

[Ahzek451]

It also reminds me of the malcador cannon

[Griefbringer]

I have to admit that I am not an expert on the conqueror cannon, having only seen a handful of pictures of the thing in question, but that gun certainly does not have the distinctive shape of the conqueror cannon (which according to Imperial Armour 1 was exclusive to Gryphonne IV forge world).

 

As for the rapid fire battle cannon on Knight Paladin (I presume that is what is shown in the picture), according to Legions Imperialis it is stronger weapon than the basic battle cannon on Leman Russ (longer range, better AP modifier), so it makes sense that it has a longer and thicker barrel than a basic battle cannon. Not to mention that the knight may be required to use it as an improvised close combat weapon in emergency situations, in which case a particularly stout construction may be welcome feature.

[Ahzek451]

Well, color me convinced. Im going with warmaster battle cannon. I.e. Just a battle cannon. Appreciate the insights and shares!

[Griefbringer]

Regarding the Malcador tank, the one in picture mounts the basic battle cannon, the same as on Leman Russ - and with identical dimensions if you compare the Legions Imperialis models (both tanks can be conveniently found in the starter box). However, on Malcador the battle cannon turret has limited traverse, while on Leman Russ it can pivot around 360 degrees.

 

I have to admit that I found this an interesting subject to investigate.

[Griefbringer]

As an afterthought, I would like to add that the Warmaster models was released a couple of years before Legions Imperialis, so the designers likely could not just grab in-scale details from the LI designs - they might rather need to consult the large scale Forge World resin models for inspiration.

 

However, by my understanding the Aeronautica Imperialis plastic models, which were in the same scale as the titans, had been out for a while, so weapon designs from them could be easily reused. However, looking at the models and the armament lists, there is nothing resembling these weapon, though there are plenty of lascannons, autocannons, heavy bolter (or bolt cannons), missiles and bombs sticking out of the aircraft. These could have provided useful basis for designing many secondary weapons for titans.

 

[For reference, the original metal Epic marauder bomber model from mid-90's had a battle cannon stuck in the nose - not exactly a practical aircraft weapon in my view. Later marauder models seem to have settled for slightly lighter nose armament; the big Forge World resin models from ca. 2000 had either two lascannons or six autocannons placed at the front of the aircraft.]