Codex: Space Marines | Multi-Part Intercessor & Vanguard Vet Teaser | Legends Culling

[nodnol88]

I posted this in the other Legends thread, but the Rhino is showing as “Last Chance To Buy” on the UK site.

 

Coming sooner rather than later? 

[phandaal]

4 minutes ago, Firedrake Cordova said:

Whilst some Chapters very much do specialise in lightning assaults, it's probably inaccurate to say it is the only form of engagement employed by the Space Marines as a whole. I might be misremembering, but I seem to remember when the mixed metal and plastic Vindicator kit was introduced way back in WD 231, it was described more as an assault tank, used for dealing with hard points and urban assaults where extreme short-ranged firepower was required.

 

Many chapters are explicitly heavy metal enthusiasts, yeah. Imperial Fists are big fans of their Vindicators, and other chapters like the Aurora Chapter make heavy use of all different kinds of armor. Chapters have also been noted to typically have about a dozen Vindicators apiece on average for the last 20+ years.

[Marshal Reinhard]

A redone rhino would be relevant to my interests. especially if just slightly bigger

[Orange Knight]

The Dreadnought has now been added to the list of units moving to Legends.

[Old-Four-Arms]

18 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

t6 termies, t5 marines, its getting out of hand now

 

Power creep on steroids

 

 

I still remember when Space Marines went from T3 to T4 (UK WD129).

 

Good old times...

[Orange Knight]

13 minutes ago, nodnol88 said:

The Rhino has “Last Chance To Buy” on the UK site.

 

Refresh coming sooner rather than later? 

 

New kit or a re-boxing. They might be removing the Razorback bits from the box.

[Mazer Rackham]

17 minutes ago, nodnol88 said:

Refresh coming sooner rather than later? 

 

Just confirmed, new Rhino variant transport leaked:

 

Mk III 'Mehtul Bawkses'

 

Spoiler

 

 

[mecanojavi99]

I can totally see a new artillery tank that is literally a version of the Impulsor with an even bigger missile launcher array that could double as AA.

[Jukkiz]

30 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

A redone rhino would be relevant to my interests. especially if just slightly bigger

"GW: We heard you and added 100% pricehike to og rhino, but you now get it slightly longer. No more annoying opening backdoor, front armor, side doors or top hatches. Everything molded in 6 easy pieces that you can build and paint in an hour to haul your new Tactical marines™ across battlefields"

[Karhedron]

28 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The Dreadnought has now been added to the list of units moving to Legends.

 

Disappointing, but not unexpected.

 

37 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

A redone rhino would be relevant to my interests. especially if just slightly bigger

 

Now I am torn. My Wolves have plenty of Rhino hulls so I will stick with the classic one. But my Blood Angels have the original Mk1 Rhinos. I never updated them as I mainly relied on jump packs for mobility (as a true son of Sanguinius). But I do have a few BA units like me Hellblasters that would really enjoy riding in a Rhino. Maybe I should just skip the Mk2 completely for my BAs and wait for the Mk3 to turn up.

[brother_b]

I am all for Space Marines getting stronger, tougher, harder to kill. I’m all for their bolters being able to cut down the enemies in droves. It’s lore consistent and has rarely been accurately represented on the table top.

 

I’m really interested, however to see how this plays out. Are they going to price the units to reflect this increase in power and toughness? If they do, will this result in substantially fewer models on the table?

 

To me, it’s hard to want to sell a ton of models and then potentially restrict the number on the table because they’re so powerful. What’s the plan GW?

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 02:51 PM by brother_b

[Karhedron]

20 minutes ago, brother_b said:

I’m really interested, however to see how this plays out. Are they going to price the units to reflect this increase in power and toughness? If they do, will this result in substantially fewer models on the table?

 

I think that this is the plan. Orks have had some price increases to account for their overall increased lethality. The Warhammer Community article backs this up.

 

Quote

Each warrior will be better, stronger, and faster, making them feel like the superhuman soldiers they are supposed to be. This will also mean an increase in points values, so armies will be smaller, playing like the elite strike forces from the lore.

 

So smaller armies are definitely on the way for some factions.

[Xirix]

1 hour ago, ChargingSoll said:

Yo people they just edited the dreadnought in now aswell to the list of legends. 

 

They have no mercy for survivors.

Dreadnought though, not Venerable. The Dreadnought model's already been gone for a while.

[Moonstalker]

With the loss of Oath and Hail of Fire the change to the Intercessor bolt profiles feels like a wash or a slight downgrade.  Divergent marines weren't enjoying the +1 to wound, so it's a buff for them, but I think any kneejerk reactions about increased marine damage output are unwarranted.  Some units, like terminators with storm bolters, we've talked about needing a buff for a long time.  They just aren't good.  For them, the S5 AP-1 change is welcome and needed.  But, again, this all has to be weighed with the loss of Oath in mind.  Competitive marine lists are often built around double Oath and the reliability of its rerolls and +1 to wound.  That is going away, and the power it offered needs to be compensated for somewhere.

 

Moving up one toughness can be a 16% durability boost, roughly, but it's not always gonna be that.  Some stuff wounded on 3's, and will still wound on 3's.  In that regard, I think a lot of the wailing and gnashing of teeth I see on forums (not necessarily this one) is also overwrought.  A lasgun was wounding on 5+ yesterday, and is wounding on 5+ when this codex comes out.  Yes, Terminators will move to a 6+.  Were you really bringing lasguns to kill terminators, anyway?  And is that 16% decrease in lethality vs one unit type worth getting that worked up over?

 

Especially if the unit sees a 10% point increase?

 

Marines won't become unkillable, they'll go from "you wiped the unit of 5" to "this one guy survived."  That can be really important for scoring objectives, but I don't think that's the oppressive power creep that half of the communities on the internet seem to be losing their mind about.

 

GW could still screw this up, but I'm a fan of the idea of the change.  I think it should've been done when they re-scaled the upper end of the toughness curve as part of an index edition.  But I think it's something that needs to be done to create more room at the bottom end of the scale for more variation between infantry, and it's better done sooner than later.  I look forward to the idea of things like T4 Skittles and Sisters, or possibly even T4 aspect warriors.

 

I'm still going to field my Predators, legends or not.

[redmapa]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

The Dreadnought has now been added to the list of units moving to Legends.

 

Goodbye my sweet short king, you will always be my favorite!

 

Icons never die! 

[FarFromSam]

Oof, losing the regular dreadnought is a shame, but between the two it makes sense if most dreadnoughts are venerable i guess.  Would appreciate an upsized ferrum.  The remptor looks pretty cool, i can't think of a dreadnought i don't like. 

 

Checked.   I thought the floating tanks had the fly key word... what's the point of floating tanks with jet engines?   Other than to look like  children's saturday cartoon slop that is?

Edited Tuesday at 04:35 PM by FarFromSam
Got off topic, sorry.

[Evil Eye]

4 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

Please don't rehash the old stuff good/bad vs new stuff good/bad cycle again.

"Old good new bad"-posting will continue until the new stuff stops being bad.

[Mogger351]

44 minutes ago, Moonstalker said:

With the loss of Oath and Hail of Fire the change to the Intercessor bolt profiles feels like a wash or a slight downgrade.  Divergent marines weren't enjoying the +1 to wound, so it's a buff for them, but I think any kneejerk reactions about increased marine damage output are unwarranted.  Some units, like terminators with storm bolters, we've talked about needing a buff for a long time.  They just aren't good.  For them, the S5 AP-1 change is welcome and needed.  But, again, this all has to be weighed with the loss of Oath in mind.  Competitive marine lists are often built around double Oath and the reliability of its rerolls and +1 to wound.  That is going away, and the power it offered needs to be compensated for somewhere.

 

Moving up one toughness can be a 16% durability boost, roughly, but it's not always gonna be that.  Some stuff wounded on 3's, and will still wound on 3's.  In that regard, I think a lot of the wailing and gnashing of teeth I see on forums (not necessarily this one) is also overwrought.  A lasgun was wounding on 5+ yesterday, and is wounding on 5+ when this codex comes out.  Yes, Terminators will move to a 6+.  Were you really bringing lasguns to kill terminators, anyway?  And is that 16% decrease in lethality vs one unit type worth getting that worked up over?

 

Especially if the unit sees a 10% point increase?

 

Marines won't become unkillable, they'll go from "you wiped the unit of 5" to "this one guy survived."  That can be really important for scoring objectives, but I don't think that's the oppressive power creep that half of the communities on the internet seem to be losing their mind about.

 

GW could still screw this up, but I'm a fan of the idea of the change.  I think it should've been done when they re-scaled the upper end of the toughness curve as part of an index edition.  But I think it's something that needs to be done to create more room at the bottom end of the scale for more variation between infantry, and it's better done sooner than later.  I look forward to the idea of things like T4 Skittles and Sisters, or possibly even T4 aspect warriors.

 

I'm still going to field my Predators, legends or not.

Lasguns stay at a 5+.

 

Shuriken catapults, flamers, galvanic rifles, shootas, gauss flayers, autoch bolters are all going from 4+ to 5+ as core infantry weapons. Pulse rifles go from a 3+ to a 4+.

 

Overcharged plasma, meltas, ion weapons and a whole slew of anti-marine options go from a 3+ to a 2+.

 

Please stop trivialising the impact it has on the rest of the game as being a side grade at 2pmm with your suggested 10%.

Edited Tuesday at 04:18 PM by Mogger351

[Lathe Biosas]

11 minutes ago, FarFromSam said:

Checked.   I thought the floating tanks had the fly key word... what's the point of floating tanks with jet engines?   Other than to look like  children's saturday cartoon slop that is?

 

Only the Flying Tanks of the Custodes have FLY... which is really strange to me.

[Evil Eye]

1 minute ago, Lathe Biosas said:

 

Only the Flying Tanks of the Custodes have FLY... which is really strange to me.

Fluffwise I was under the impression it was because the grav-tanks are so damn heavy that the grav-repulsion tech (which is very crude compared to Custodes vehicles and works more like a sort of brute force gravity-thruster, hence pancaking anything that gets caught underneath it) is only just able to lift them off the ground. Crunchwise I guess it's for balance. I don't mind as it means you can convert/proxy them with tracks and it won't lead to silly "How the feth does that work!?" moments.

[phandaal]

10 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Fluffwise I was under the impression it was because the grav-tanks are so damn heavy that the grav-repulsion tech (which is very crude compared to Custodes vehicles and works more like a sort of brute force gravity-thruster, hence pancaking anything that gets caught underneath it) is only just able to lift them off the ground. Crunchwise I guess it's for balance. I don't mind as it means you can convert/proxy them with tracks and it won't lead to silly "How the feth does that work!?" moments.

 

This has come up every now and again due to various depictions of those grav tanks in lore. The bottom line is they do not behave in a manner consistent with any kind of modern-day tech equivalents like hovercrafts or even with existing 40k tech like the grav plates on a Speeder.

 

The lore depicts them doing what seems cool in any given scene. The rules make them do whatever the rules people feel is appropriate on the table. It won't map back neatly to any consistent depiction of the tech or any kind of analogous 21st century machine.

[LSM]

47 minutes ago, FarFromSam said:

Checked.   I thought the floating tanks had the fly key word... what's the point of floating tanks with jet engines?   Other than to look like  children's saturday cartoon slop that is?

 

IIRC, Repulsors and Impulsors originally had [Fly] in 8th, but lost it in... 9th? 

[Doghouse]

3 hours ago, Firedrake Cordova said:

Whilst some Chapters very much do specialise in lightning assaults, it's probably inaccurate to say it is the only form of engagement employed by the Space Marines as a whole. I might be misremembering, but I seem to remember when the mixed metal and plastic Vindicator kit was introduced way back in WD 231, it was described more as an assault tank, used for dealing with hard points and urban assaults where extreme short-ranged firepower was required.

 

Here's the original from White Dwarf 118 1989.

 

        

[Rhavien]

44 minutes ago, FarFromSam said:

 I thought the floating tanks had the fly key word... what's the point of floating tanks with jet engines?   Other than to look like  children's saturday cartoon slop that is?

I wanted to ignore this, but I had to come back to reply anyway. Please, just for a moment try to forget that you know the predator for some decades, that it has grown to you and you have fond memories of it. Now look up some real world tanks like the leopard, Abrams or T90. Now look at the predator and tell me that it doesn't look more like a toy or caricature than a serious battletank.

Before you pigeonhole me into a "new is always bettah" guy, please know that I also love predators and hate that they go away into legends and I think they have a place aside the gladiator variants.

However, in my opinion it perfectly fits 40k when a mad genius with a gigantic hubris invents an massive antigrav tank where you need some yet engines to somehow push it forward. Those tanks (I'm including repulsors and repExes) are not flying sky high through the air rather than crushing the ground beneath them while being shoved forward. Why do they do it? Don't know! Does it bring any advantage over tracks? Also don't know. But it's 40k and sometimes it's ludicrousness that makes it appealing (at least to some of the fans).

[ZeroWolf]

47 minutes ago, Doghouse said:

 

Here's the original from White Dwarf 118 1989.

 

        

This takes me back. Would love to leaf through old white dwarfs again.