Codex: Space Marines | Multi-Part Intercessor & Vanguard Vet Teaser | Legends Culling

[Mogger351]

6 minutes ago, Tastyfish said:

Both the Tau and AdMech example are still looking at this from the point of view of the marines being the standard benchmark.

A Skitarii would seem equally ridiculous holding a Astartes scale bolt rifle - but if marines now cost twice as much as rangers, the galvanic rifle only needs to be half as good for their shooting power to be roughly comparable.

 

That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see an increase in lethality anyway - if only to make the recon guard/endless swarm builds less viable

Well I doubt intercessors are going up to 170 points for 5 from 80.

 

But when the skitarii are now both 33% less likely to wound and can now be hurt on 2s in return it's going to be awkward.

 

I get wanting marines to be more elite and in lower numbers, but doing it via robbing other factions of their historic interactions with them and telling them it's tough luck isn't good for the game.

 

I don't know the numbers but unless marines shuffle to be basically what custodes are now (who will in turn get a stat boost and shrink on the table top accordingly), they'll either be too dominant to none marines, or it'll force anything not a marine to get huge point cuts and just be a meaningless horde.

 

Also, pour one out for hellblasters.

[Rhavien]

While talking about intercessor damage output please consider that they do not double their bolter shots anymore like with their old datasheet. They are to two shots at 24" or three at 12". They also lost 6" max range.

[nodnol88]

Even as a Marine player I don’t have any skin in this game. I left the hobby as a youngster and when I returned I could see the writing on the wall with the Firstborn so never invested in them. 
 

If the rumours are true on a new Rhino and Landraider, then it wouldn’t surprise me if in a few years we get replacements for the tanks being sent to legends anyway, and maybe a streamlining of the range. 
 

This needed to happen though. I think the biggest loss is actually the loss of weapon variety, particularly with the Devastator Squad. Where are the Primaris Grav weapons (Techmarine aside), or bigger version of Neo-Vulkite? 
 

A lot of the retired units already have rough approximations in the newer kits, like Impulsors for Razorbacks and Gladiators for Predators, but there’s now a hole for a new Primaris flyer, siege tank and artillery tank. 
 

Valrak colloquially referred to this edition as a fast attack edition, so I wonder if next edition is the heavy armour edition. The second wave for 11th could be the Rhino and Landraider refresh and then 12th can introduce the new whatever to fill the gaps. 
 

 

[Orange Knight]

I would argue that a Siege Tank like the Vindicator has no place in a Marine Chapter, and belongs more in a Marine Legion.

A Siege Tank camping outside the walls doesn't play to the shock and awe, lightning assault that the Chapters are built around, although I don't feel so strongly about it that I see it as a real negative.

 

Now that the codex is cleaned up, I would like to see some exciting new units in the future. More gravis variants, more phobos variants etc, and of course - more chapter specific units across the board to make each chapter more distinctive. Give the White Scars jet bikes like the one used by their character, for example.

[Mogger351]

33 minutes ago, Rhavien said:

While talking about intercessor damage output please consider that they do not double their bolter shots anymore like with their old datasheet. They are to two shots at 24" or three at 12". They also lost 6" max range.

On the smaller tables I don't think 30" ranges really mattered that much, the saturation profile is still more shots that other mainline bolters get largely, it's admittedly mostly irrelevant to t3, still an upgrade into t4 and the heavy s6 d2 balances out some of the loss into t3 and makes them edge superiority back against their immediate peers.

 

Overall I'd say they're slightly better. Bolt rifles alone for example into a crisis unit have gone from 4.5 to either 6 wounds on the heavy at max range or ~3.5 on the saturation out of rapid fire.

 

They now go from slightly over 2 damage on a big knight to 3ish on the heavy.

 

Ironically they go from 6.75 wounds against marines with the 40 shots to flat 6 with the heavy profile outside 12".

 

So largely the same if not a gentle increase in places based on situation ability.

 

I expect this will get ironed out with lethal hits galvanic rifles, s6 pulse weapons, knights going back up in toughness and so on. But it sucks until that happens.

[Evil Eye]

27 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I would argue that a Siege Tank like the Vindicator has no place in a Marine Chapter, and belongs more in a Marine Legion.

...What? The Vindicator has been a mainstay of the Astartes vehicle fleet for most of 40K's lifespan. It certainly has more business in the Codex than the various Aspect Marines or the vile excuses for grav-tanks we're stuck with now.

[Dark Shepherd]

13 hours ago, Marshal Loss said:

I'm a big fan of the idea of marine armies getting smaller and more elite, but 11th is already feeling like GW are going to inevitably go way too far with stat/codex creep. Guess time will tell. But it's good to see they've learned from the farce that was CSM's nearly 20 month wait for their second wound back in 9th. 

GW made a rod for their own back with smaller (recommended) board sizes, by adding that to bigget models AND increased model count

 

But hey, think we can bank on new Preds and Vindicators after the new rhino

Edited Tuesday at 11:59 AM by Dark Shepherd

[Evil Eye]

17 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

If by paying the price you mean "made record sales and record profits" then I guess they have...

 

Your daily reminder GW nearly went under shortly after 8th launched and it was Contrast that saved them. At least, according to Chris Peach.

Edited Tuesday at 04:18 PM by Evil Eye
Adding citation.

[Mogger351]

Please don't rehash the old stuff good/bad vs new stuff good/bad cycle again.

[Jukkiz]

GW could easily keep og vanguard, sternguard, devastators, assault and tacticals boxes out for all the useful bits they have that CAN still be used with primaris. But nooo, lets primarinade everything so they can IP and name lock their silly ideas and slowly trickle maybe couple useful extra bits around

[Lexington]

Disappointed that Intercessors aren’t getting Special/Heavy Weapons to fully emulate old Tac Squads. Really thought they might go there this time around.

[FarFromSam]

Luckily primaris tanks are there to buy instead of rhino chasis visuals.  And they have the iconic marine stubbers!  And boring predators only have like 4 guns, these have 5!  And what mainline battle tank doesnt need like ... 4 JET ENGINES?    Oh, and in the decaying imperium of the 41st millennium what heavy battle tank shouldnt.... fly?  My dads tank can totally beat up your dads tank.

 

In a few years maybe theyll retire these and we'll get tanks that can fly into the sun and fight on lava land or somethin.  

[Marshal Reinhard]

21 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

I just realized, that since any and all devestators are desolation squads now... you could technically swap all guns on the desolation squad with the guns from a devastator kit now, and you'd not even have to explain the proxy.

Someone else apparently had the same thought: (or well, made primaris sized devestators that are now a desolation squad):

 

Courtesy of this instagram account: https://www.instagram.com/p/Dcb6tm_jXLI/?igsi=bHQ0YzNvcGZzMm0z

 

Edited Tuesday at 01:45 PM by Marshal Reinhard

[Tastyfish]

42 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I would argue that a Siege Tank like the Vindicator has no place in a Marine Chapter, and belongs more in a Marine Legion.

A Siege Tank camping outside the walls doesn't play to the shock and awe, lightning assault that the Chapters are built around, although I don't feel so strongly about it that I see it as a real negative.

 

Now that the codex is cleaned up, I would like to see some exciting new units in the future. More gravis variants, more phobos variants etc, and of course - more chapter specific units across the board to make each chapter more distinctive. Give the White Scars jet bikes like the one used by their character, for example.

 

Don't think of it as a 'siege tank' but instead a breaching tool. Can't easily drop pod into some fortifications, so send a door kicker down to smash a hole then drop marines to surge through the breach.

[Jings]

7 minutes ago, Lexington said:

Disappointed that Intercessors aren’t getting Special/Heavy Weapons to fully emulate old Tac Squads. Really thought they might go there this time around.

 

Really beggers belief. I think I'll be modelling all the now quite frankly insane Grenade Launchers as old Plasma Guns though seeing as the heavy profile about matches. 

 

Personally quite a big fan of the Stat changes though. I think it's a good step towards increasing granularity between faction infantry provided GW can stop themselves from just flat moving everything bar the a guard to T4 but we'll see. 

[Mr Farson]

Watch the scouring game be completely its own rule system and end up being 2ed / 3rd ed 40k ala old world rather than 30k. 3.0

[Crimson Longinus]

9 minutes ago, Tastyfish said:

 

Don't think of it as a 'siege tank' but instead a breaching tool. Can't easily drop pod into some fortifications, so send a door kicker down to smash a hole then drop marines to surge through the breach.

 

Exactly this. Vindicator and Stormtalon are the two units from my active marine army that will be affected by this, and the vindicator will be sorely missed. It just has an iconic look and has been a MVP in many games. 

[Mogger351]

5 minutes ago, Mr Farson said:

Watch the scouring game be completely its own rule system and end up being 2ed / 3rd ed 40k ala old world rather than 30k. 3.0

To be fair this level of marine fan service is up there with HH anyway.

[Mogger351]

Just now, Crimson Longinus said:

 

Exactly this. Vindicator and Stormtalon are the two units from my active marine army that will be affected by this, and the vindicator will be sorely missed. It just has an iconic look and has been a MVP in many games. 

You can still use it outside of tournaments, in lists you build in the app, fully supported.

 

If we're talking competitive use then builds changing and swapping units is expected.

[Crimson Longinus]

I think bumping the marine stats makes certain amount of sense. The ceiling of ten in the stats was lifted quite a while ago, yet marines have been stuck just one point above basic guardsmen in most stats. This created a ceiling how some other units that should be perhaps stronger (catachans) or tougher (skitarii) couldn't, because then they would be at the marine territory. So creating this middle step between normal humans and marines is potentially a good thing. (Though damage two still is a mistake.)

 

But these sort of paradigm shift in keep-your-old-codices edition will create the awkward mismatch between newer and older codices, and it is rather feels-bad time for the older books. I've been building my Eldar and they're the army I've been practicing 11th with, but they're in sorry state now and marines and orks being supercharged this way makes the elves feel even more pathetic. Supposedly elite Aspect warriors are so massively behind the marines now that it really saps my desire to use them. 

[01RTB01]

25 minutes ago, Mr Farson said:

Watch the scouring game be completely its own rule system and end up being 2ed / 3rd ed 40k ala old world rather than 30k. 3.0

There was a huge difference there. One was an outstanding game, well loved and sorely missed. The other was 3rd edition. 

[Lord Marshal]

53 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

There was a huge difference there. One was an outstanding game, well loved and sorely missed. The other was 3rd edition. 

 

Nah, much like 2nd edition Heresy, as soon as we get 4th/Scouring, 3rd edition will immediately go from The Great Satan into Sovlfvl Flawed Masterpiece. 

[ChargingSoll]

Yo people they just edited the dreadnought in now aswell to the list of legends. 

 

They have no mercy for survivors.

[Firedrake Cordova]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I would argue that a Siege Tank like the Vindicator has no place in a Marine Chapter, and belongs more in a Marine Legion.

A Siege Tank camping outside the walls doesn't play to the shock and awe, lightning assault that the Chapters are built around

Whilst some Chapters very much do specialise in lightning assaults, it's probably inaccurate to say it is the only form of engagement employed by the Space Marines as a whole. I might be misremembering, but I seem to remember when the mixed metal and plastic Vindicator kit was introduced way back in WD 231, it was described more as an assault tank, used for dealing with hard points and urban assaults where extreme short-ranged firepower was required.

[nodnol88]

The Rhino has “Last Chance To Buy” on the UK site.

 

Refresh coming sooner rather than later?