Codex: Space Marines | Multi-Part Intercessor & Vanguard Vet Teaser | Legends Culling

[lansalt]

21 minutes ago, Rhavien said:

Now look up some real world tanks like the leopard, Abrams or T90. Now look at the predator and tell me that it doesn't look more like a toy or caricature than a serious battletank.

The Predator wasn't designed to be a main battle tank, but an infantry support vehicle. The current design from 3rd edition was inspired on the british army's FV432 APC variants.
So whatever its other design flaws, it looks pretty serious if you ask me.

 

 

 

 

 

[Griefbringer]

39 minutes ago, Doghouse said:

 

Here's the original from White Dwarf 118 1989.

 

Original for WH40K, that is.

 

The respective rules and background for the Epic (Space Marine 1st edition) actually appeared whole two months earlier in WD 116 (pages 10-15), together with various other vehicles. The background description for Vindicator is rather brief, though:

 

"Like the Predator, the Vindicator is a variant on the Rhino APC chassis. It carries a single heavy weapons in a front swivel mount - normally a heavy assault gun known as the Thunderer. The Vindicator was originally designed by the Loyalist forces for fighting in built-up areas, where range was secondary to effect against buildings and enemy armour. After its decisive role in the clearance of Stahlenburg during the Scouring of Rotstern I, the forces of Horus copied the design, and within months the Vindicator was used by both sides."

 

The actual Epic metal model for the Vindicator can be first seen in the following months issue (WD 117). For some reason, within the next two years this is replaced by a revised model with a ridiculously huge gun in the front.

 

[Dezron]

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

"Old good new bad"-posting will continue until the new stuff stops being bad.

 

Bad according to who?

Whatever the new models (any for any faction) are "good" or "bad" is subjective.

[Crimson Longinus]

I have to say I never liked that predator was just a rhino with a turret on top. I think a tank and APC should have different designs. And then they of course repeated that with the impulsor and the gladiators...

 

It is too bad that they're so adamant about keeping HH and 40K ranges separate. Sicaran is really nice marine battletank design, way better than either predators or gladiators. 

[lansalt]

4 hours ago, Firedrake Cordova said:

it was described more as an assault tank, used for dealing with hard points and urban assaults where extreme short-ranged firepower was required.

Yeah, the Vindicator was inspired by the WW2 german Sturmtiger, which was used exactly for that. The current kit took many details from the real thing, like the ring of holes around the barrel, or the little crane to lift the heavy rocket mortar shells (Which were basically gigantic bolt rounds!)

 

 

[FarFromSam]

caricature

30 minutes ago, Rhavien said:

I wanted to ignore this, but I had to come back to reply anyway. Please, just for a moment try to forget that you know the predator for some decades, that it has grown to you and you have fond memories of it. Now look up some real world tanks like the leopard, Abrams or T90. Now look at the predator and tell me that it doesn't look more like a toy or caricature than a serious battletank.

Before you pigeonhole me into a "new is always bettah" guy, please know that I also love predators and hate that they go away into legends and I think they have a place aside the gladiator variants.

However, in my opinion it perfectly fits 40k when a mad genius with a gigantic hubris invents an massive antigrav tank where you need some yet engines to somehow push it forward. Those tanks (I'm including repulsors and repExes) are not flying sky high through the air rather than crushing the ground beneath them while being shoved forward. Why do they do it? Don't know! Does it bring any advantage over tracks? Also don't know. But it's 40k and sometimes it's ludicrousness that makes it appealing (at least to some of the fans).

 

 

I hear ya. And give me the same grace asked of me.  I like tacticus.  I like redemptors.  I like a lot of the the scale marines.  

 

But Cawl is not representative of an imperium in decline.  He reeks of name carving into primarch hearts levels of fanfiction.    So think about what they claim Cawl has created.  Superior marines, a super primarch entire new lines of vehicles, multiple variants of each. Oh but in secret... and even though he belongs firmly mechanicum he gave it away.  Okay.  Does that sound like 40k, or a marvel super hero?

 

Thats my gripe.  A dozerblade and tracks on a valiant looks great.  Listening to Cawl slop not great.  So, you're right, but lets get classic ludacrousness back like plaid, or luda in the back of your chevrolet, and not actual ludacrous

[Moonstalker]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

Lasguns stay at a 5+.

 

Shuriken catapults, flamers, galvanic rifles, shootas, gauss flayers, autoch bolters are all going from 4+ to 5+ as core infantry weapons. Pulse rifles go from a 3+ to a 4+.

 

Overcharged plasma, meltas, ion weapons and a whole slew of anti-marine options go from a 3+ to a 2+.

 

Please stop trivialising the impact it has on the rest of the game as being a side grade at 2pmm with your suggested 10%.

 

Would Heavy Intercessors break the game at 90 points instead of 100?  This sort of durability and damage already exists and no one takes it, at least not at a competitive level.

 

Now, overcharged plasma.  Let's fire a squad of hellblasters into a squad of intercessors at T4 and T5, yeah?  Keep it simple, no OoM, just overcharged plasma into MEQ.  10 attacks into T4, hitting on 3s, 6.66 hits, wounding on 2+, 5.328 wounds, AP3 so 6+ save, 4.262 wounds through armor.  2 damage each, 4 dead marines.  10 attacks into T5, hitting on 3s, 6.66 hits, wounding on 3+, 4.396 wounds, AP3 so 6+ save, 3.516 wounds through armor.  2 damage each, 3-4 dead marines.

 

As I said, you're talking about 1 extra guy surviving.  Against terminators, the math actually does not change with their toughness increases when it comes to overcharged plasma.  They're going to get more expensive and die just the same - 3+ to wound either way, and forced onto their invul.  You brought up Votann weapons - consider the EtaCarn Plasma Gun on Hearthguard, it is literally no worse into any of the new marine profiles.  A plasma gun that requires no overcharge, still has AP-3 and damage 2.  Now it just kills more points of marine with every shot.

 

A 10% price increase across the board for marines would be 200 points less army on the table.  It may not work out that way - who knows how whether the price and stat increases will be limited to infantry or spread across the entire range - but 10% across 2000 points means you're going to have to give something up, and it won't be little.  1 extra marine survives each volley of hellblaster fire, in exchange for you having to give up something like a Redemptor, a Repex, or a Vindicator (may their casino cannons rest in peace).

 

It is a change, and many armies may need to re-evaluate.  Maybe the incidental damage they relied on to kill marines isn't reliable anymore, and they need to tech in something else.  Some may simply be left holding the bag till they get a codex, and that sucks - it's why this would've been better done as part of an index edition.  But I just don't buy the idea that this is such an earthbreaking, sky-shattering change that it will suddenly make every non-marine army into second-class have-nots.  The meta will shift, people will find answers, and some of those answers will just be the ones they were already using.

[Crimson Longinus]

5 minutes ago, FarFromSam said:

But Cawl is not representative of an imperium in decline.  He reeks of name carving into primarch hearts levels of fanfiction.    So think about what they claim Cawl has created.  Superior marines, a super primarch entire new lines of vehicles, multiple variants of each. Oh but in secret... and even though he belongs firmly mechanicum he gave it away.  Okay.  Does that sound like 40k, or a marvel super hero.

 

Sure, the fluff is bad. But before the primaris happened they had already brought a loyalist primarch back, destroying the thematic core of the setting, so who cares any more?

The lore is ruined already, but the new minis are pretty. So buy cool models, and concoct whatever headcanon you need to cope. 

[Evil Eye]

16 minutes ago, Dezron said:

Bad according to who?

People with taste?

[Mogger351]

14 minutes ago, Moonstalker said:

 

Would Heavy Intercessors break the game at 90 points instead of 100?  This sort of durability and damage already exists and no one takes it, at least not at a competitive level.

 

Now, overcharged plasma.  Let's fire a squad of hellblasters into a squad of intercessors at T4 and T5, yeah?  Keep it simple, no OoM, just overcharged plasma into MEQ.  10 attacks into T4, hitting on 3s, 6.66 hits, wounding on 2+, 5.328 wounds, AP3 so 6+ save, 4.262 wounds through armor.  2 damage each, 4 dead marines.  10 attacks into T5, hitting on 3s, 6.66 hits, wounding on 3+, 4.396 wounds, AP3 so 6+ save, 3.516 wounds through armor.  2 damage each, 3-4 dead marines.

 

As I said, you're talking about 1 extra guy surviving.  Against terminators, the math actually does not change with their toughness increases when it comes to overcharged plasma.  They're going to get more expensive and die just the same - 3+ to wound either way, and forced onto their invul.  You brought up Votann weapons - consider the EtaCarn Plasma Gun on Hearthguard, it is literally no worse into any of the new marine profiles.  A plasma gun that requires no overcharge, still has AP-3 and damage 2.  Now it just kills more points of marine with every shot.

 

A 10% price increase across the board for marines would be 200 points less army on the table.  It may not work out that way - who knows how whether the price and stat increases will be limited to infantry or spread across the entire range - but 10% across 2000 points means you're going to have to give something up, and it won't be little.  1 extra marine survives each volley of hellblaster fire, in exchange for you having to give up something like a Redemptor, a Repex, or a Vindicator (may their casino cannons rest in peace).

 

It is a change, and many armies may need to re-evaluate.  Maybe the incidental damage they relied on to kill marines isn't reliable anymore, and they need to tech in something else.  Some may simply be left holding the bag till they get a codex, and that sucks - it's why this would've been better done as part of an index edition.  But I just don't buy the idea that this is such an earthbreaking, sky-shattering change that it will suddenly make every non-marine army into second-class have-nots.  The meta will shift, people will find answers, and some of those answers will just be the ones they were already using.

We can agree to disagree on the minutae of the maths, all I know is that -1 to wound is usually quite a rare and expensive upgrade and doesn't always come with increased potential damage output.

 

That said the biggest casualty is the feel and perception to the rest of the game. It doesn't matter if they get the points perfect, it will feel bad knowing your common infantry and core units/profiles are getting worse by design with no upshot. Few people buy into a force to be a wet noodle to feed a marine power fantasy.

[Crimson Longinus]

4 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

People with taste?

 

I see. I have great taste in aesthetics, I even have an art degree. So I can tell you, that the primaris are obviously and objectively better looking than the malformed low detail chimps that preceded them. Marine range has literally never looked better than it does today. 

 

I am glad we got this settled!

[Crimson Longinus]

BTW, It is a bit weird, that they just casually sneak revealed the new intercessors and multipart vanguard in the video, instead of doing a proper reveal of the kits. I hope they still do one, and give us a breakdown of the weapons and other bits.

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 11:45 PM by Crimson Longinus

[Robbienw]

7 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

Marine range has literally never looked better than it does today. 

The 30K marine range.

[Zoatibix]

11 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

That said the biggest casualty is the feel and perception to the rest of the game. It doesn't matter if they get the points perfect, it will feel bad knowing your common infantry and core units/profiles are getting worse by design with no upshot. Few people buy into a force to be a wet noodle to feed a marine power fantasy.

Agreed.  It's not that I think the sky is falling but this certainly contributes to the feeling that I'm playing running a  bunch of NPCs for the actual player to shoot up.  

[FarFromSam]

34 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

Sure, the fluff is bad. But before the primaris happened they had already brought a loyalist primarch back, destroying the thematic core of the setting, so who cares any more?

The lore is ruined already, but the new minis are pretty. So buy cool models, and concoct whatever headcanon you need to cope. 

I know what youre sayin, and i agree with most it, but i cant help but feel like we'd be a lot worse off with some of the rediculousness if we hadnt pushed back against it.   Id say thats why we should care.  Lol, i forgot about roboute being resurrected in such a silly way. Lol thanks for the laugh.

Edited Tuesday at 06:57 PM by FarFromSam

[Dezron]

31 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

People with taste?

 

And those are?

Because I could find someone with taste that would call old Marine models garbage.

 

 

[Moonstalker]

12 minutes ago, Zoatibix said:

Agreed.  It's not that I think the sky is falling but this certainly contributes to the feeling that I'm playing running a  bunch of NPCs for the actual player to shoot up.  

 

I can understand and respect that, though I do not think it will be as bad as you two are afraid that it will be.

 

I also always leave room for GW to screw things up and do it wrong.  On its face, I don't think the changes they've floated are that crazy (maybe, perhaps, +2 inches of movement for Phobos is a little much.  Maybe it should've been +1 inch).  Remember always that this is the GW that sold us on "fewer rerolls, we promise" followed by "here's the new Space Marine army rule, it's full rerolls."

[lansalt]

The pros and cons of the changes since 8th edition have been discussed to death. But I'd say that the important thing is that until now it was still possible to play the game with old marines.

Maybe they were not good enough for tournaments, but the rules gave players a way to do it in friendly games. Which if you ask me, should be the actual goal for most people.

But you could still choose your own way to play.

 

Not anymore. With Rhinos variants, Tacticals and Devastators gone without getting updated versions like other old units, the people who like their old armies are screwed without options. They are forced to quit, play old editions or homebrew. And that's a legitimate reason to be upset as a customer.

[Firedrake Cordova]

=][= Blanket bashing of either the first-born or Primaris range, or criticising those who like a particular one is not conducive to constructive and civil discussion =][=

[Griefbringer]

1 hour ago, lansalt said:

The Predator wasn't designed to be a main battle tank, but an infantry support vehicle. 

 

In the original rules, it even had a transport capacity of five models, making it a sort of infantry fighting vehicle. This capacity was however dropped from the rules after a while, though the Razorback was introduced instead to fulfill a similar role.

[Brother Captain Vakarian]

@Moonstalker thank you for taking the time to detail how this change will actually impact the game. This thread has been a difficult and discouraging read but your posts have been appreciated. I’m very excited for the changes, personally, with appropriate points balancing. It’s good that GW is taking better advantage of the room the new wound roll table gives them to expand stat differences, but it’s frustrating to see people reacting so negatively without taking the time to evaluate the changes as a whole instead of in a vacuum. 

[MoriyaSchism]

8 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I would argue that a Siege Tank like the Vindicator has no place in a Marine Chapter, and belongs more in a Marine Legion.

A Siege Tank camping outside the walls doesn't play to the shock and awe, lightning assault that the Chapters are built around, although I don't feel so strongly about it that I see it as a real negative.

I'm pretty sure levelling entire city blocks, cracking castles in half and demolishing bunkers is part of a lightning assault. Good luck having successful rapid assault operations without a way to destroy fortifications or rocket artillery to destroy gun emplacements. What is a Primaris Chapter anyway? I remember when I read Dark Imperium it was utter nonsense. A tank falls through the atmosphere without any support or assistance, then a bunch of Inceptors deploy and not even half-way through the fight they run out of ammo and are forced to beat the chaos cultists with their fists and empty guns. Then a bunch of Intercessors show up and almost get tabled by a plague marine squad. 

The new Codex is so good. From now on I'm going to start calling the returned Guilliman "The Abomination" because he's clearly some sort of Eldar made freak or a remotely controlled corpse when you consider what he's done to our beloved Space Marine Chapters. 

[Mogger351]

10 minutes ago, Brother Captain Vakarian said:

@Moonstalker thank you for taking the time to detail how this change will actually impact the game. This thread has been a difficult and discouraging read but your posts have been appreciated. I’m very excited for the changes, personally, with appropriate points balancing. It’s good that GW is taking better advantage of the room the new wound roll table gives them to expand stat differences, but it’s frustrating to see people reacting so negatively without taking the time to evaluate the changes as a whole instead of in a vacuum. 

Oh it's not being considered in a vacuum I assure you. I just think this is a very marine heavy forum and between people loving a buff and being sad about legends, not much thought goes into how it impacts, mathematically or otherwise, everyone else.

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

We can agree to disagree on the minutae of the maths, all I know is that -1 to wound is usually quite a rare and expensive upgrade and doesn't always come with increased potential damage output.

 

The important thing to remember is that it is not a-1 to Wound. It has no effect on S3, S6/7 or S10+

[Mogger351]

4 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

The important thing to remember is that it is not a-1 to Wound. It has no effect on S3, S6/7 or S10+

Yes, but if we're honest there is a lot of s4, s5, s8 and s9 that's widely in use either by virtue of line weaponry or as an intended solution to marines. So for a lot of units it is essentially a -1 to wound.