Codex: Space Marines | Multi-Part Intercessor & Vanguard Vet Teaser | Legends Culling

[MoriyaSchism]

Warhammer 40,000 is a vast setting with a long history that stretches all the way back into 3 years ago. 

[Jukkiz]

While yes, making rules and for that, 11th already starting powercreep make some armies look good, the true question is: How many upcoming people who see the game, actually want to buy more then one box, if that with current and surely rising prices? 

No amount of good looks and media can make, lets say kiddos with only pocket money, buy a box of 10 marines at what, 51€ to 55€ by now? They might try the game for fre at store and get neat onetime build/paint experience with free model to entice them to buy and get into army of their intrest. But the never stopping price hikes ain´t encouraging people to actually buy more then one regular box, an hq unit or patrol box. 

GW can and should lower prices, they can do that very easily to lure in more buyers. Yes, i know that there is "savings" in patrol boxes and others of such, but regular troops shouldn´t cost you half a hundred?! 

[Robbienw]

Yep, all true.  It will happen to Primaris/MKX units one day as well, they'll be an all new refresh 8-10 years or so from now and you'll find your favorite units gone.  The next time around it probably will happen even faster, unlike where classic marines were still sold/playable for a while after 8th edition release for heritage/legacy reasons, the next replacement will be faster and more efficient.  Either that it will be a constant churn and old units will disappear and new units come into being every year.

 

What it comes down to is core units that have been part of the setting for so long disappearing, its led for me to 40k not feeling like 40k anymore.  And makes you think what they will do it to next. No more tactical squads, what's next? No more dire avengers, no more Leman Russ tank etc?

[Indy Techwisp]

Aren't the "In 8 to 10 years all of your favourite units will be gone" type posts just more complaints about firstborn/primaris stuff with a slightly different coat of paint on it?

 

Why can't we discuss what's actually happening with this codex rather than prophecising doom for 40k because some stuff went to legends as is expected of every codex launch since the concept of legends was introduced.

[Griefbringer]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

And looking at Magic the Gathering comparatively, they have made precious few cards obsolete despite being around for a similar amount of time as Games Workshop. 

 

Regarding the length of history, GW was established in 1975, though in the first decade it was a bit different from what it later became (see the book "Dice Men" for more info on early GW). Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader was first released in 1987, and its descendants have been in some form continuously in production since then. OTOH pretty much every other GW game released before 2001 - and several released since then - has been discontinued at some point.

 

Wizards of the Coast was established in 1990, and released Magic the Gathering in 1993 (the same year WH40K 2nd edition was released). WotC was later acquired by Hasbro, but MtG has remained in production for respectable 33 years.

 

 

Speaking of firstborn marines, what happened to that Mk 7 Power Armour marine statue that used to be in front on GW headquarters once upon a time? Do they have it still stored somewhere, or has it been melted for scrap metal?

[Captain Idaho]

4 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Why can't we discuss what's actually happening with this codex rather than prophecising doom for 40k because some stuff went to legends as is expected of every codex launch since the concept of legends was introduced.

 

We certainly can, but this topic is specifically about Space Marine units going into legends. To discuss the rules and units going into the Space Marine Codex, a different topic would be required.

[Robbienw]

7 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Aren't the "In 8 to 10 years all of your favourite units will be gone" type posts just more complaints about firstborn/primaris stuff with a slightly different coat of paint on it?

 

No, its an observation.

 

The topic is about Marine units going to legends, its not without the bounds of the topic to say this is likely to happen again in future.

Edited 20 hours ago by Robbienw

[Indy Techwisp]

1 minute ago, Robbienw said:

No, its an observation.

I'd be surprised if anything else manages to last 9 years sharing a codex with it's direct replacement.

This whole thing was an exception to the norm and if GW decide they need to replace Intercessors with something else later down the line I expect it'll happen in the same codex the replaces releases in like how it works for the other Factions.

 

1 minute ago, Captain Idaho said:

We certainly can, but this topic is specifically about Space Marine units going into legends. To discuss the rules and units going into the Space Marine Codex, a different topic would be required.

If this topic isn't supposed to be related to the stuff that is or is not going to Legends this codex and is instead supposed to be a General "Space Marines Legends" topic shouldn't it be in the Space Marines category then?

[Captain Idaho]

Well it's news, innit.

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

If you believe your loyal investment to Primaris will be rewarded with a return in loyalty, take a look at Suppressors, Hammerfell bunker, or impending doom of Outriders etc. Look at Uriel or Pedro Kantor.

 

I don't expect loyalty. It is a simple equation of whether the fun of playing the game and/or painting the minis is still worth the money I spend on it. As long as the answer is "yes" then I will keep spending. Now possibly in future GW may do something to shift that calculus but that is a problem for the future.

 

It is not about loyalty, my relationship with GW is better described as "transactional". 

[Lexington]

9 hours ago, phandaal said:

Also, "we are going to sell fewer Space Marines" is not a line that will go far at HQ. It is hard to see them lasting extremely long as a truly elite army.

Maybe. It's interesting to note that both Space Marines and Orks are seeing significant shifts upwards in points costs, necessitating smaller armies overall. One bit of info from GW's most recent financial report is that they're making long-term changes in their business to account for the current US tariff situation. I wonder if they foresee the costs of a full army alienating some newer customers, and are adjusting the size of the game accordingly.

Edited 13 hours ago by Lexington

[DarkMark]

Shrinkflation is a thing with GW. The number of models in a box has decreased, but the price certainly hasn't. There are many legitimate retail practises GW could adopt, but they never will. 

 

Anyways, I like the look of those VanVets. I've seen some great versions of the starter box models, so these will definitely be a big step-up. The Intercessors are very yawn.   

[Crimson Longinus]

Whilst I am very pro-primaris, I still think that removing rules of old units is a bad thing, even the absolutely atrocious centurions. If they all got proper legends rules and we could trust GW to keep the legends rules updated for every edition to foreseeable future, it would be one thing, but now some units are not even getting legends rules and GWs track record on legend maintenance is very spotty. And that quite new units like hammerfall bunker, suppressors etc being legended means that nothing really is safe. 

 

GW stuff has always been expensive, and building and painting them takes time, but it used to be that you could trust that your investment would be usable to foreseeable future. This is no longer the case. 

 

Now I'm on the record saying that many of the old models look terrible and should be removed, but at the same time I think they should get proper primaris replacements that either have similar enough rules so that the old models can be used as counts as, or failing that giving the old units proper legends rules that are maintained into perpetuity. I don't think intercessors and tactical nor devastators and desolators are directly equivalent. Sure, a bolter marine is bolter marine and a missile marine is a missile marine, but the other weapons simply have no equivalent. At minimum these units should have some sort of "legendary upgrades" option that allowed intercessors and desolators to take tactical and devastators weapons as a legends option. And suppressors counting as inceptors is even worse. They do not even have same armour type, inceptors are a gravis unit, suppressors very clearly are not.  

[Marshal Reinhard]

Some people here trying their damndest to make sure they don't gather any sympathy for their losses I feel.

 

Regardless, it took 9 years to get here. While the loss of the much younger kits is disturbing from a "nothing's safe" perspective, those were poor performing kits that never really took off. Its rather safe to say intercessors arent really part of that club. Doubt this means intercessors are thus at half their life span spent already.

 

(Also, what happened to the "terminators means classic marines are safe forever" crowd? Termies are still here?)

[Robbienw]

One day Intercessors will go just like tacticals did.  Or even more abruptly than tacticals, as they don’t have as much historical cache and another refresh of the space marine line wouldn’t cause as much of a shock.  Just because you like them better doesn’t mean it won’t happen.

Edited 17 hours ago by Robbienw

[Doghouse]

2 minutes ago, Robbienw said:

One day Intercessors will go just like tactical did.  Just cause you like them better doesn’t mean it won’t happen.

 

I think this is an excellent argument for people jumping off the edition churn train and looking at other editions outside of tournament play.

 

 

[Zoatibix]

Call me a cynical, tired and grumpy Xenos but I think part of GW’s love of all these army templates things is their belief that folks will buy multiples of things that work in a couple of detachments but not others.

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, Robbienw said:

One day Intercessors will go just like tacticals did.  Or even more abruptly than tacticals, as they don’t have as much historical cache and another refresh of the space marine line wouldn’t cause as much of a shock.  Just because you like them better doesn’t mean it won’t happen.

I dont think anyone thinks it wont happen. 

I'm legitimately shocked we didnt get a new replacement that actually covered both tacticals and intercessors frankly. 

 

one caveat, how much "historical cache" intercessors will have will depend on:
1) how long it is before it happens
2) who you ask

 

there are plenty of people that prefer intercessors. I wont describe them as "og" fans, because realistically, I more or less fall into that category myself, only missing out on rogue trader but buying and enjoying the hobby since 2nd edition. And I do prefer intercessors model wise, and rule wise its all fluid anyway so no point building armies for 40k around rules, never has been.

 

Without a doubt, things will go to legends over time. But I doubt the humble bolter marine (in any variety) will truly die, ergo tactical marines and intercessors will both live on when their inevitable replacement comes along. 

[Lathe Biosas]

How do we know there aren't some new Marine models to be released when the new Codex drops?

[Ahzek451]

3 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I don't expect loyalty. It is a simple equation of whether the fun of playing the game and/or painting the minis is still worth the money I spend on it. As long as the answer is "yes" then I will keep spending. Now possibly in future GW may do something to shift that calculus but that is a problem for the future.

 

It is not about loyalty, my relationship with GW is better described as "transactional". 

Makes sense. In the days of old, a customer's relationship with GW, things like "loyalty" was more fitting. But in the days of canned, soulless, corporate shenanigans a customer is much more likely to shift gears from loyalty to transactional.  

[Kallas]

4 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

some stuff went to legends as is expected of every codex launch since the concept of legends was introduced.

4 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

This whole thing was an exception to the norm and if GW decide they need to replace Intercessors with something else later down the line I expect it'll happen in the same codex the replaces releases in like how it works for the other Factions.

 

Tell that to Suppressors and Hammerfall Bunkers I guess.

 

What the whole shebang has shown is that GW is totally willing to scrap anything they want, and now they'll do it without giving any damns. Next Codex they might drop Hellblasters and release some Gravis Plasma unit in their place - there's a good likelihood they won't, but there's no doubt that if they decide "hey, let's just make a new, different version of X unit and can the old Y version of that unit, that'll boost sales" then they will do it without care.

 

If the face of 40k, that almost literally built it up from the earliest days and carried it through some of the toughest financial times of the company, is not safe from being canned, then nothing is.

 

2 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

While the loss of the much younger kits is disturbing from a "nothing's safe" perspective, those were poor performing kits that never really took off.

 

Perhaps they never took off...because some of them didn't get solo releases (Suppressors). The Hammerfall Bunker was always clunky, considering its size, but it's still a disturbing issue that they're completely willing to just can units whenever they want.

 

It's kind of the old Xenos problem: Xenos don't sell as well as Marines, so we won't support them, but because they don't get support they don't sell as well, and since they don't sell as well we won't support them... If a unit is only released in a (whatever box it was, I don't remember: the Vanguard box or something?) and not standalone, it's gonna put off a lot of people who don't want to splash a ton of money on other units they might not want when they might otherwise get the separate box of Suppressors.

[gaurdian31]

10 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Perhaps they never took off...because some of them didn't get solo releases (Suppressors). The Hammerfall Bunker was always clunky, considering its size, but it's still a disturbing issue that they're completely willing to just can units whenever they want.

 

It's kind of the old Xenos problem: Xenos don't sell as well as Marines, so we won't support them, but because they don't get support they don't sell as well, and since they don't sell as well we won't support them... If a unit is only released in a (whatever box it was, I don't remember: the Vanguard box or something?) and not standalone, it's gonna put off a lot of people who don't want to splash a ton of money on other units they might not want when they might otherwise get the separate box of Suppressors.

Suppressors were released back when Chaos got its refresh back in the Shadowspear 8th edition boxset and never got a separate sprue. Same for the venom crawler and obliterators. So not looking to hopeful for those units, at least not venom crawlers, obliterators might finally get a separate release. Also sad to see the centurions go, many people may not like them but I did. I guess I will use the shooty ones for obliterators and the drill guys as mutilators. 

[Laurence]

  

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

It's kind of the old Xenos problem: Xenos don't sell as well as Marines, so we won't support them, but because they don't get support they don't sell as well, and since they don't sell as well we won't support them... If a unit is only released in a (whatever box it was, I don't remember: the Vanguard box or something?) and not standalone, it's gonna put off a lot of people who don't want to splash a ton of money on other units they might not want when they might otherwise get the separate box of Suppressors.

It's kind of the opposite problem.  Xenos may not sell well, but that means there's no incentive to make new stuff to invalidate the old.  But since 'everyone' plays marines, to make new stuff that needs to be bought, GW needs to trash the old stuff and replace it, requiring more customer purchases.  Their very popularity is their undoing.

[Kallas]

3 hours ago, gaurdian31 said:

Suppressors were released back when Chaos got its refresh back in the Shadowspear 8th edition boxset and never got a separate sprue.

That's my point, yeah. They never got a separate sprue - so the argument that "they didn't sell well, so we won't support them any more" is kind of a chicken-egg thing: did they not sell well because they were bad, or did they not sell well because they were only ever in a more expensive bundle that people might already have plenty of.

 

1 hour ago, Laurence said:

Xenos may not sell well, but that means there's no incentive to make new stuff to invalidate the old.

You might have missed the context of what I was saying, which was more about the Suppressors not getting released as a separate kit - the comparison was not about Xenos stuff getting retired, more about the fact Xenos stuff typically sells less well than Marine stuff, but is that because it's not supported enough (eg, some factions having gone multiple editons before getting significant releases).

 

1 hour ago, Laurence said:

But since 'everyone' plays marines, to make new stuff that needs to be bought, GW needs to trash the old stuff and replace it, requiring more customer purchases.  Their very popularity is their undoing.

I don't really disagree with this, though it's pretty much a problem of their own making. GW have successfully released multiple iterations of Firstborn models before, the decision to change the entire range to Primaris and cull the Firstborn stuff is an entirely new way of doing things - entirely unlikely to happen to Xenos.

[Blindhamster]

31 minutes ago, Kallas said:

 entirely unlikely to happen to Xenos.

 

I get you... and its kind of true. It's 100% true from a lore perspective.

 

but from a model perspective?

Orks.
Orks got a huge redesign when gorkamorka came out, they got closer to the modern more ramshackle look and feel, rather than the old crab claws and stuff like that. But they were also proportioned way differently from either old or later orks for the most part. Then.. 4th? edition, maybe even sometime later in 3rd? we got orks that were closer to the take on orks we've had for a long time since... but then a few editions ago we moved toward stuff like the hotrods and other stuff (look at the new trukks compared to earlier ones...) Fairly huge design shifts, easily as big shifts as marines got going to primaris - just without the lore. 

 

Dark Eldar

They got totally overhauled in design language in 5th? edition. 

 

SquatsVotann
This one says it all.

 

Necrons

They went all egyptian... slowly been walking that one back too to some extent.