Codex: Space Marines | Multi-Part Intercessor & Vanguard Vet Teaser | Legends Culling

[brother_b]

I think a possibility could be that 2500 or 3000 points will be the new 2000. 

 

 

 

[Mogger351]

5 hours ago, brother_b said:

I think a possibility could be that 2500 or 3000 points will be the new 2000. 

 

 

 

You mean as a community led decision right? Because GW saying "points are up, barrier to entry down, value per box is up", being met by a community cry of "no! I want to buy more! I wajt longer games! More points!" Wpuld be really dumb.

[Rusted Boltgun]

13 hours ago, Zoatibix said:

Call me a cynical, tired and grumpy Xenos but I think part of GW’s love of all these army templates things is their belief that folks will buy multiples of things that work in a couple of detachments but not others.

 

I'd been mulling this over and wondered whether GW were thinking that you would vary your army depending on your force disposition and detachments - so that you would mix it up depending on your opponents, calling from a roster of units.

 

I would love to see how much data GW can gather now. Can they track repeat purchases from the website and see how many people order a starter box and then follow it up?

How much data can they gather from the app about which units are deployed, by whom and how often?

 

[Karhedron]

20 hours ago, DarkAddick said:

Apologies for being slow but will there be actual codices for the divergent chapters over time or will it be this book plus what’s on the app/website?

 

We don't really know, GW were a bit vague on the subject of divergent Chapters. The impression I got is that they will effectively get digital Indices to bring them in line with the new Marine codex when it drops. What happens longer term is not clear. I imagine they will get either codices or supplements at some point because I can't imagine GW passing up on the opportunity to sell us more paper. 

[Ace Debonair]

13 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

I dont think anyone thinks it wont happen. 

I'm legitimately shocked we didnt get a new replacement that actually covered both tacticals and intercessors frankly. 

 

 

Even the name "Tactical Intercessor Squad" sounds like money.

Colour me very surprised that wasn't the chosen route.

 

Given the Chaos Marines got a Kill Team based on their basic boys, I could potentially see Tactical Squads making a return in the same way. Eventually. 

Probably not for a good while though, unless GW have been planning this exact move for a long time. 

 

[ZeroWolf]

21 minutes ago, Ace Debonair said:

 

Even the name "Tactical Intercessor Squad" sounds like money.

Colour me very surprised that wasn't the chosen route.

 

Given the Chaos Marines got a Kill Team based on their basic boys, I could potentially see Tactical Squads making a return in the same way. Eventually. 

Probably not for a good while though, unless GW have been planning this exact move for a long time. 

 

You mean like the rumours of a Legion of the Dammed rescaled firstborn kill team that is supposed to be revealed shortly?

[Orange Knight]

Tepid take:

"Intercessor" is one of the best names GW have ever given to a unit. 

Meaning:

-Someone that intervenes on behalf of another

-Someone that is the bridging of the gap between man and God (This is just brilliant as Astartes are known as Angels within the Imperium)

 

Honestly, this name is more fitting for the 40k Imperium, whilst Tactical Squad is more fitting for the enlightened age prior to Religion taking hold over humanity. I have no problem with never seeing Tactical Squads again in 40k.
"Intercessor" doesn't roll off the tongue as easy and it hasn't been beaten into my mind over the last 40 years, but it's a great name.

 

 

As for the more divergent chapters getting their own books - Honestly I hope they are all consolidated into a single tome. I sound like a broken record saying this, but I also believe that it would sell more overall across all 40k hobbyists.
Every collector of Marines will probably buy 2 books, but there is a lot les value in someone buying individual expansions connected to a single chapter they might not collect.

I'm not suggesting for a second that their rules be dilluted or made less thematic, I just don't think they need individual books when GW is happy to sell is a 230+ page codex without hesitation. It also means that all the divergent chapters would get their rules at the same time, so no one has to be left in the dust waiting for their updated for 2+ years.

They definitely could not have done this prior to now as most of the divergent chapters have a full range of models now. Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Wolves could all get a new release or two, and a flurry of chapter specific units could just be introduces as a 2nd, large Marine release wave at some point in the edition. 
When the Marine codex drops, we'll be looking at 6 new kits being released alongside it at an absolute minimum, but it will probably be more. There is nothing stopping GW from dropping 2 kits each for Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves in the same month.
 

 

[Rhavien]

22 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

There is nothing stopping GW from dropping 2 kits each for Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves in the same month.

 

 

Uuuh, that's a tough one to choose. 

 

- Baal Gladiator with Flamestorm cannon (I 100% expect the Baal Pred to be gone to legends when the index drops)

- Scriptor Redemptor (Feel free to give it out to everyone, but give me a BA sarcophagus option)

 

Also appreciated:

- Corbulo 2.0

 

Regarding divergent chapter books I don't think GW would skip the money to sell us more books. I already hat to pay fully for a space marine codex and again BA supplement in 10th...

 

[Ace Debonair]

50 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

You mean like the rumours of a Legion of the Dammed rescaled firstborn kill team that is supposed to be revealed shortly?

 

Honstley, I didn't mean that because I didn't know about it.  

And while I can't personally picture a LotD-specific Kill Team doing double duty as a normal Ultramarines Tactical Squad, I'll be quite happy if they go on to prove me wrong! 

Edited yesterday at 10:32 AM by Ace Debonair
Incorrect Punctuation making my eye twitch

[Sete]

Will the Vanguard Vets have a non jump pack option?

[FarFromSam]

hope so, but flavor isnt gws MO any more.  But we can hope.

[Vassakov]

33 minutes ago, Sete said:

Will the Vanguard Vets have a non jump pack option?

 

Are these not functionally Bladeguard? Melee weapons, shields and pistols - not sure what else you'd add beyond diversifying the weapon options, which I daresay will come if/when Bladeguard are refreshed. 

[Emperor Ming]

How long before heavy bolters get bumped to s6, then so on

[Captain Idaho]

2 hours ago, Ace Debonair said:

Even the name "Tactical Intercessor Squad" sounds like money.

 

Colour me very surprised that wasn't the chosen route.

 

I think Games Workshop falls into the same trap as modern video games developers in that they believe their own hype about themselves and believe they're the industry savants to which the customer base follows or is just wrong.

 

They don't get their cues from customers, rather dictate to customers what they think the customer wants.

 

They even have fallen into the same prattle habits politically, rather than just doing their jobs.

 

So really... I'm not surprised GW never understood that Tactical Marines and all the other staples of Space Marines were sacrosanct.

 

After all, like them or loath them, Primaris would never have been set up as an alternative/replacement to Firstborn in the first place.

[Crimson Longinus]

14 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

How long before heavy bolters get bumped to s6, then so on

 

They have to. At least to s6. Normal bolt rifle can already shoot three s6 AP -1 and D2 shots, that more powerful than the current heavy bolter. 

 

It has been a terrible weapon for a long time, so it could use a hefty buff. It often is a weapon option that can be chosen instead of weapons such as lascannon, multimelta and plasma cannon, but it is just so much worse than all of them. 

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, Emperor Ming said:

How long before heavy bolters get bumped to s6, then so on

 

I expect all weapons and units to be adjusted.

Heavy Bolter will be Str6 with the new codex.

Perhaps the Landraider will go to Toughness 14.

2 hours ago, Rhavien said:

 

Regarding divergent chapter books I don't think GW would skip the money to sell us more books. I already hat to pay fully for a space marine codex and again BA supplement in 10th...

 

 

I think they could sell more books by putting all the chapters in one. Add a few extra detachments/units for the codex chapters, and you'll get the same sales as the main codex.

[Lexington]

15 hours ago, Kallas said:

That's my point, yeah. They never got a separate sprue - so the argument that "they didn't sell well, so we won't support them any more" is kind of a chicken-egg thing: did they not sell well because they were bad, or did they not sell well because they were only ever in a more expensive bundle that people might already have plenty of.

I doubt GW views or tracks it this quite this way - they're probably not that concerned with 'Suppressors' as a concept so much as the production logic involved. They have a big production bottleneck right now, and one part of handling that seems to be trying to scale down the frankly absurd amount of Marine SKUs that are available in one way or another. With those kinds of limitations, they're choosing what stays and what goes, and of the things that live in the weird limbo of "were in a big box, never got their own separate release," Suppressors are one of the easiest things to dump. Unlike Outriders, they don't have existing synergies with character boxes, and they compete with  Inceptors, Assault Intercessors and now Vanguard Veterans for the "flying Space Marines" niche. Bad luck for Suppressors, but I doubt it's a case of GW looking at something that's never been released on its own anyway and saying "well, they didn't sell."

 

14 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Orks got a huge redesign when gorkamorka came out, they got closer to the modern more ramshackle look and feel, rather than the old crab claws and stuff like that. But they were also proportioned way differently from either old or later orks for the most part. Then.. 4th? edition, maybe even sometime later in 3rd? we got orks that were closer to the take on orks we've had for a long time since

 

Gonna engage in Extreme Pedant Mode here and note that the just-retired Bryan Nelson Ork Boyz, which defined the look of Orks 'till recently, were released in early 3rd, less than a year into the edition. ;)

[Jukkiz]

6 hours ago, Rhavien said:

Uuuh, that's a tough one to choose. 

 

- Baal Gladiator with Flamestorm cannon (I 100% expect the Baal Pred to be gone to legends when the index drops)

- Scriptor Redemptor (Feel free to give it out to everyone, but give me a BA sarcophagus option)

 

Also appreciated:

- Corbulo 2.0

Corbulo is basically in miniature form but for some reason they didn´t name the mini as him. As of dreadnoughts, Furioso is basically brutalis now. Only librarian and death company don´t have proper models, even if GW says putting two skulls on brutalis makes it death company one. 

 

Edited yesterday at 05:06 PM by Jukkiz

[Griefbringer]

10 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

As for the more divergent chapters getting their own books - Honestly I hope they are all consolidated into a single tome. I sound like a broken record saying this, but I also believe that it would sell more overall across all 40k hobbyists.

 

Horus Heresy is rather marine-centric, but there all the marine legions are packed into two books - one for loyalists, another for traitors, nine legions covered in each. That said, both of these books in their present version are 300+ page hardcover tomes.

 

[LostTemplar]

Hello, 

 

Long time lurker here. Old 3rd Ed. Player.

 

I think the tacticals had their time in the sun. I greatly love Mk7 armor, since 2nd ed. I didn't play 2nd ed, but I had some lovely pewter Mk7 marines and some plastic standing old-marines.

 

I have great memories of that time. The rhinos, the predators, metal dreadnoughts, etc.

 

The game changed heavilly in 8th ed. The tactical marines were gone, and came the primaris.

 

I like primaris. But I don't understand why GW doesn't print money by just making a upscaled mk7 armor for 40k. 

 

So I bid the tactical squad goodbye, as I have the original Rhino, and hope we finnaly get anti-grav tanks.

 

I think all models that include tactical marines are being phased out, which isn't surprising.

 

The new Intercessors are ok. I am sad to see the currenf intercessors go, because I like their abilities and, while I like the incoming statline boost, I think the current abilities worked. 

 

I honestly don't understand why people cling to tracked vehicles for marines. I like the whole hover tanks (repulsors look awesome to me). The new speeder is a gift. And I am sorry GW didn't do grav-bikes right off the bat. 

 

Edited 19 hours ago by LostTemplar
Spelling sucks :(

[Antarius]

6 hours ago, LostTemplar said:

 

I honestly don't understand why people cling to tracked vehicles for marines. I like the whole hover tanks (repulsors look awesome to me). The new speeder is a gift.

 

Hi and welcome :)

 

For my part, the answer is twofold; I simply think the tracked vehicles look cooler (in the same way that you find them awesome, I find the hover thanks look wrong. They don’t necessarily look bad per se, but they simply don’t look as good to me). The other part of the answer is that, at least to me, they don’t fit in with the core aesthetic/theme of anachronistic, decaying WWII/fantasy sci-fi that is so appealing about Warhammer 40.000.

Ironically, it is precisely the fact that hover tanks would make more sense for a “realistic” sci-fi army like marines that make them not make sense for Marines. That’s my take on it anyway.

I really like the updated speeder, though.

[Lathe Biosas]

I had a thought. Maybe they are trying to make the vehicle style divide between the Space Marines and Imperial Guard wider.

 

IG forces are tracked/wheeled and very old school military, while Space Marines are the futuristic scifi super soldiers.

 

Just a guess... 

 

[SpecialIssue]

19 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Tepid take:

"Intercessor" is one of the best names GW have ever given to a unit. 

Meaning:

-Someone that intervenes on behalf of another

-Someone that is the bridging of the gap between man and God (This is just brilliant as Astartes are known as Angels within the Imperium)

 

Honestly, this name is more fitting for the 40k Imperium, whilst Tactical Squad is more fitting for the enlightened age prior to Religion taking hold over humanity. I have no problem with never seeing Tactical Squads again in 40k.
"Intercessor" doesn't roll off the tongue as easy and it hasn't been beaten into my mind over the last 40 years, but it's a great name.

 

 

7 hours ago, LostTemplar said:

 

I honestly don't understand why people cling to tracked vehicles for marines. I like the whole hover tanks (repulsors look awesome to me). The new speeder is a gift. And I am sorry GW didn't do grav-bikes right off the bat. 

 

These two thoughts touch on the same thread as to why some people's taste doesn't quite gel with the design direction of 40k for the past decade now.

 

For me it is precisely the juxtaposition of the modern with anachronistic, the secular with the spiritual that makes 40k so appealing, and the Imperium's culture so interesting. These are Tactical squads, fighting with advanced heavy firearms and orbital insertion capabilities, that nonetheless chant:

and are known as the Angels of Death. That is what makes them so unique, interesting, and original.

 

These are tanks of the most elite and advanced fighting forces of the far future, armed with energy weapons, remote weapons and independent combat AI; which nonetheless roar forward on grinding metal tracks that literally stamp the Imperial Aquila into the dirt they drive over, and have the same design ideas as ancient first-gen tanks. That is what makes them so unique, interesting, and original.

 

The religiously-tinged name of Intercessors is also a juxtaposition with the fact they have advanced tech and use guns, sure - but it is far more clumsy and not nearly as effective, and even worse is revealed as not being the actual intent behind the name, because this religious language is not repeated anywhere in the other units. In fact it seems to be merely coincidental given its simply following a name convention of giving units names starting with "In" and ending with "-er/or", and of the transparent corporate reason of producing a copyrightable name. There is no design ethos behind the name other than the most surface-level reason.

 

In comparison, naming the most basic feudal-chapter-warrior-monk Space Marine unit the Tactical Squad was a definite conscious choice for a thematic reason.

 

My biggest fear is that as with every other major IP and media, the secret sauce is being blurred and lost by recognising only the most surface-level elements of what makes up the idea, and blindly copying it without thought for the ethos or innovation they originally had. I can get surface-level, one-note design ethos anywhere, but that is exactly where this universe is heading in its design, and I lament that greatly.

Edited 12 hours ago by SpecialIssue

[Antarius]

2 hours ago, SpecialIssue said:

My biggest fear is that as with every other major IP and media, the secret sauce is being blurred and lost by recognising only the most surface-level elements of what makes up the idea, and blindly copying it without thought for the ethos or innovation they originally had. I can get surface-level, one-note design ethos anywhere, but that is exactly where this universe is heading in its design, and I lament that greatly.

I agree almost completely with your whole post and almost-almost completely with this. But I think there is an element of "lightning in a bottle" about 40K that is probably just impossible to sustain forever, especially since I think they originally came up with the "secret sauce" by a mix of deliberate design and happy accident and I'm not sure the recipe was ever precisely understood or written down by anyone.

It sounds very pessimistic, I know, but I think there is simply an element of time wearing away at the magic of the setting that probably can't be entirely avoided. Individual decisions can still be lamentable, of course and going corporate rarely does a lot of good for any artistic endeavour, but even without all that, I think keeping the setting fresh for 40ish years was always going to be a tall order.

[Griefbringer]

2 hours ago, SpecialIssue said:

and of the transparent corporate reason of producing a copyrightable name. There is no design ethos behind the name other than the most surface-level reason.

 

Actually, the unit-naming sub-department of corporate lawyer demi-company is not really interested in copyright issues when it comes to unit names, but about how strong trademarks they can establish.

 

Ideally, a strong trademark is distinctive and non-descriptive of the product (in the minds of general public), as you cannot claim effective trademark to descriptive terms. If you ask a member of general public about what they associate term "Primaris Intercessor" (or whatever you had in mind) with and they answer is "Absolutely nothing!", then you have probably come up with a strong trademark.

 

Nowadays some companies even add what looks like intentional misspellings to some of their product names to establish even stronger (more distinctive) trademarks, though so far GW has not really strayed into that sector - unless you count some of the Orky names, but those kind of names have been part of Orkyness at least since early 1990's, well before corporate lawyers started to meddle with the product names.

 

"With the chainsword ... we wil purge!"