Black Legion Gunline in 11th

[techsoldaten]

Taking a look at 11th edition rules, thinking about resurrecting the Black Legion gunline I ran in 8th.
 

Abaddon - 285 pts
 

Daemon Prince with Wings - 180 pts
 

Chaos Terminator Squad - 180 pts

• 5 Terminators
• Abaddon's bodyguard
• Power fists / chainfist / heavy weapon as desired

Helbrute - 130 pts

• Twin lascannon
• Missile launcher

 

 

Cultists - 90 pts

• 20 Cultists

Cultists - 90 pts

• 20 Cultists

Cultists - 90 pts

• 20 Cultists

Cultists - 50 pts

• 10 Cultists

Cultists - 50 pts

• 10 Cultists

Cultists - 50 pts

• 10 Cultists
   

Havocs x 3 - 125 pts each

• 4× Lascannon

 

Chaos Predator x 3 - 135 pts each

• Predator twin lascannon
• 2× Lascannon
• Havoc launcher

 

Total: 1,995 pts

What I liked about this list is I could mostly line it up on my own table edge and shoot up opponents from range. While lascannons are no longer 60", I can deploy at 6" and still limit opponents to their own table edge / obscuring terrain if they want to keep them protected. The Havocs and Preds would get lethal and sustained hits from Abaddon and the Helbrute while the cultists screen everything out. Deployment would span about a 22" wide region in my deployment zone, covering a couple objectives. This would make it hard for anything to deep strike in my deployment zone. The Daemon Prince and the Terminators are there to act as beatsticks for anything that gets past the screens. 

The point of this list is to abuse range with high target saturation, allowing me to take out the biggest threats at range and force opponents to deal with a mass of bodies contesting the objectives I don't already control. While the performance of the list would likely drop in situations where I don't go first, it's not a terrible situation - as long as I have a few clear firing lanes, I pretty much don't need to move the army to do damage.

Have been considering hard counters. Dark Eldar Scourges with Dark Lances come to mind, along with mass Wardog spam. Am not really concerned about Orks the way I once was, the better part of a mob can be taken out if thing go wrong. Not really worried about Custodes the way I once was, low model counts with incredible saves are still not invulnerable to focus fire. Big difference fielding 90 cultists versus 60. 

Looking at current tournament lists, I don't see so many hard counters as stiff challenges. The Necron list with 4 C'Tan seems like a bad matchup but not a steamroller. The worst Tau list I could find was Five Crisis suits with 2 Sunforge and 2 Starscythe and 2×2 rail Broadsides, which would mean a lot of shooting at different angles to contend with. Not saying the other tournament winners are easy to handle, but not seeing the lists that would automatically break my core mechanics. Even if Abaddon and the Helbrute go down, there's still enough ways to get sustained and lethal through dark pacts / VotLW / various stratagems that the gunline remains lethal.

Thoughts?

[abaumann]

I think covering the board with cultists could be beneficial for some dispositions and not as much for others.  Additionally, with my limited time in 11th, I can say that firing lanes are not as effective in this edition if you are trying to target infantry in cover due to the 15” rule. You may run into a situation where you don’t have good targets for that many lascannons, and good positioning from your opponent could make them useless for several turns. Also, with a lot of armies having access to -1 to wound as a defensive measure, that means your lascannons might be wounding on 5s on the bigger targets which is not great. One bad round of shooting could cause you the game, depending on what your opponent is doing with their units you aren’t trying to take out. This army would be fun to play against because it would be fun trying to chew through that many cultists, and would be fun to play in games where it’s effective! However, in order to give yourself a little more flexibility, I would consider dropping a squad or two of cultists, a predator, and a squad of havocs for some other types of firepower, such as a Defiler, maybe a forgefiend, etc if you have these models. Your success will probably be highly dependent on which detachment you’re running, so which one are you planning to run?

Edited September 10 by abaumann

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Its an interesting list, but I think it would struggle on 11th ed standard (aka tournament) layouts, where sight lines over 18" are quite limited.  Still, I'm interested in hearing how things go for you.

[techsoldaten]

Have not yet played 11th, still learning the new rules. I have all the models, used to run this in 8th. Will let you know how it turns out.

For detachments, thinking Veterans of the Long War and Devotees of Destruction.

WRT the hidden rule and LOS, nothing says the army can't move. 3 Predators and 3 squads of Havocs aren't exactly a huge footprint, I used to do this with Legionnaires instead of Havocs and could mostly handle terrain.
 
Trick is to outrange / outgun in each exchange while keeping screens. As long as I get 3 or 4 good turns of shooting, games will be interesting. 

[abaumann]

@techsoldaten

curious about your success! Let us know how it goes. I know I’d be scared of that many lascannons if I’m not running a horde army.  

[techsoldaten]

First game was against an Ork Squighog list. This was my first time playing 11th and first time facing Ork Squighogs in any form. Forgive me for getting some of the names wrong.

The opponent's' list had Ghazgull Thrakka, a squad of Lootas, a mob of 20 Boys, several squads of Gretchin, the new walker from the boxed set, and 3 units of Squighogs - looked like 2 units of 8 and a unit of 4 plus at least 3 bosses mixed in. 

We deployed using Dawn of War. He placed most of his stuff 12 inches from the table edge. I kept most of mine as close as possible to the table edge, Predators were behind Abaddon and the Helbrute. There was a large ruin in the middle of the board which affected my deployment of the Cultists, they were split to the right and left with the Daemon Prince in between. 

He went first and ran up with his hogs. Was surprised to learn they advance and move about 20 inches. I did nothing my first turn, just adjusted screens to make it hard for him to consolidate. The second turn, he charged the Cultists with 3 units of Hogs, wiping out 2 of the 10x squads and reducing a 20x squad by about 12 models. His boys moved up with Ghaz to where they could get around the ruin in the next turn. While I wasn't following objectives very closely, he had gretchen covering them and a unit of Lootas positioned around the middle objective.

For my second turn, had my Cultists fall back, then the lascannons gunned down all of the Hogs. There were 2 bosses on Squigosuaruses left with a few wounds each after the shooting, the remaining cultists and the Daemon Prince were able to finish them off. It went by quickly.

For his third turn, he was able to charge the Daemon Prince with Ghazghul and his Boyz mob. They killed the Daemon Prince and consolidated into a Cultist squad. The Lootas and Gretchin stayed put. For my part, it made sense to break up the gunline. I moved the Predators off to the left, had the Havocs stay put and moved up Abaddon and the Helbrute for a charge. Shooting from Lascannons and autopistols wiped out the Boys and did a couple wounds to Ghaz. He shrugged off a lot with his a 4+ save. Abaddon took him out on the charge. The Predators were able to shoot up the Ork walker which had been making it's way up the left side.

The rest of the game was my Predators shooting up Lootas and Gretchin while the rest of the army moved up the board. He had a squad of gretchen on the board at the end of the game.

So... interesting test against an army I had no experience with. Pretty much everything went wrong. My list was designed to abuse range, all the fighting happened close in. Deployment was not favorable to me, the opponent was incredibly fast, and I had to go a turn without shooting (which is a big deal for a gunline.) It was my first game with 11th edition, did not take advantage of any stratagems / special rules interactions that might have given me a bonus. There was a moment during the second turn where I genuinely wondered if I was about to get tabled, and it's very possible that would have happened if he'd been able to get his walker into position. 

Basically, the theme of this initial test was "the screens held and he had no answers for the rest of the army." 

[abaumann]

@techsoldatengreat report! Thanks for sharing. Sounds like your plan was effective overall. Orks can be pretty difficult to deal with.  Nice work navigating the aggressive plays from your opponent.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Sounds like your game was a pretty good proof of principle.  That said, a lot of the stuff you stated (no shooting turn 1, turn 2 [or earlier] charges) are really just features of 11th ed., so I think you should put them more in the "that's the way it is now" rather than "things lined up against me" column.  Did you guys use 11th ed dispositions and scoring?  If so, you'll want to put some thought into what disposition works best with this army and how best to score it - in this edition, its pretty easy against to lose against assault armies - even if you manage to survive, they can hold you in you deployment zone for a couple of turns (referred to as "being jailed" among 40K youtubers), which can really depress your scoring.

[techsoldaten]

Thank you for the kind comments. My army's disposition is Take and Hold. 

Played another game last night, this time against a Custodes list. He had a Shield Captain with a squad of 3 jetbikes, 2 squads of 3 jetbikes, 3 squads of 6 Alarus Terminators, and a Sisters of Battle squad. 

He went first, kept his Terminators in reserve and moved up with his jetbikes. We had a ruin in the middle of the table, he had 2 squads of bikes coming on the left and one on the right. The bikes on the left were able to shoot, he advanced with the ones on the right. They took out the Daemon Prince and did 4 wounds on a Predator first turn before failing a charge into the cultists.

In my half of the first, lascannons destroyed 1 of the bike squads and 1 bike from another before he used a strategem to move his bikes behind the building. But he was still close enough to my cultists that I was able to use the Grenades strategem to deal another 4 mortal wounds and take out another bike. I did not try for a charge because I wanted to keep the screens intact - there was really no where for his Terminators to land on my side of the board. 

The next turn, he brought his bikes around the right side and had his terminators arrive from reserve. He moved up with his shield captain and the bikes, managed to kill a Predator and put some wounds on another before charging cultists. Wiped out a 10 man unit and consolidated into another. The Terminators shot up another 10 man cultist squad then one of the units made a charge into a 10 man squad. Then he used a strategem to split one of the Terminator squads into 6 separate targets, which was going to make it hard for my lascannons to target each one.

Fell back with the cultists who were in combat and shot up the bikes. Managed to destroy the Shield Captain's unit and take out 3 Terminators with lascannons. Did the Grenades strategem again, which took out another 2 Terminators (1 was on 1 wound). Charged with a 20 man cultist squad, who did nothing against the remaining Terminator. 

At this point, he had like 11 Terminators and a bike on the board. The bike moved into my lines. took failed shots at the Helbrute, then charged the cultists. He moved up with his mass of Terminators then used his Strategem again to make his other squad of Terminators into individual units. He took some shots at Predators without killing anything, then everybody started charging cultists. I think I lost about 30 cultists that turn. 

On my half, killed the Jetbike with lascannons, fell back with cultists again, killed 4 Terminators with lascannons, did the Grenades strategem again to kill 1 more Terminator, took a wound off 1 Terminator with cultist autopistols, took another wound off with my Terminators, then charged the remainder with more cultists. He was down to 5 models with his sisters in the backfield and then he called the game. I still had like 40 cultists, most of my lascannons, the Helbrute, plus Abaddon and his Terminator bodyguard, the most likely outcome was him getting tabled.

We talked after the game, said he was counting on getting more cultists off the board but could not ignore the lascannons (which appear to be the only things that can really hurt Custodes reliably.) He was making all these 4++ saves throughout the game, just not often enough for it to matter. He said he thought going after the Daemon Prince right away was a mistake, he would have done better thinning the screens or taking a turn to set up. I told him that Strategem where he can split his Terminators into individual units was really annoying and made things a lot harder, his response was I know. He said he doesn't like the Grenades strategem allowing meatshields to do mortal wounds, and I said I know.

My take was Custodes are always awful, part of the reason this worked was he could mostly not get into range to shoot the main threats to his list. Anything range 24" or less is going to have a hard time firing past the Cultists, and large obstacles forcing opponents into firing lanes is a huge advantage for this gunline. While it's too early to draw conclusions, this was my second game against a really aggressive, fast opponent. Feels like they are the ideal matchup for the Black Legion gunline.

[abaumann]

@techsoldaten

That’s badass dude! Certainly an atypical list these days from what I’ve seen, love to see when that stuff works for people. You should post some battle report photos next time for us. Keep this thread goin! Curious what Pactbound Zealots would do for you btw, given cultists could get lethals on 5s, and could get rerolls plus sustained on 5s for your shooty stuff. Maybe that’s not necessary though.