Warhammer Tone Pro Paints + Drybrushes

[01RTB01]

Do we know if shades are going or just rumour? I thought they said the new stuff was purely additional and nothing was going?

 

I'm quite reliant on Seraphim sepia, reikland fleshshade and agrax for my ork metallics. Losing any would mean a stockpiling is required. 

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

I am thinking of the various colour schemes I can use these for. For my Salamanders Space Marines, I’m am thinking of using Lustria No.3 as a basescoat, recess shading/black lining with Vallejo Carribean Turquoise, edge highlighting with Plage Toad Venom No.3 and then an all over glaze with Two Thin Coats Yellow Glaze.

Edited yesterday at 05:34 AM by FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants

[Arkhanist]

1 hour ago, 01RTB01 said:

Do we know if shades are going or just rumour? I thought they said the new stuff was purely additional and nothing was going?

 

I'm quite reliant on Seraphim sepia, reikland fleshshade and agrax for my ork metallics. Losing any would mean a stockpiling is required. 

 

GW have explicitly said the new paints are not replacing any of the normal citadel range; given the age restriction of tone pro, and the lack of shades and metallics it's not a replacement anyway. They might drop a few unpopular citadel colours here or there maybe, as it is absolutely huge. Seraphim & reikland & agrax are absolutely core paints to the range, they're safe. The paint range has evolved since 2012, new metallics, new shade formula, new colours etc, but they very rarely kill old paints since the 2012 full reboot. The only ones I can think of are glazes which effectively got replaced by Contrast and some of the primers - most just got merged into similar lines, like edge->layer, or the technical paints rejigger. Take Contrast - several of the wave 2 paints effectively made some of the wave 1 ones obsolete, but they're still making the originals, same for some metallics which really need to be taken out back and shot. Citadel is already going through a rebrand to Warhammer, and I'm sure their paint factory has been mixing Tone Pro stock for months for launch, plus no doubt a bit of panic buying from people thinking the old range is disappearing, plus not unusual GW stock constraints (there's only so much space to build up supply) - I'm certain the shades are staying, for now anyway. And even if I'm wrong, there's multiple good options for alternatives; new vallejo, ak gen 3, pro acryl etc that do very similar or near identical washes with similar performance.

 

Now, what could be interesting is if they reboot the base paints off the tone pro formula, maybe even fold them into the layer line. Same colours (unlike tone pro), but better coverage, saturation and less chalkiness, maybe dropping e.g. self-levelling to keep it kid friendly. Or pre-mixed tone pro washes based on the new shading medium. I doubt they're going to stop, they rested on their laurels a long time after the 2012 reboot (their competition was army painter warpaints, old vallejo game paints etc at the time) and the competition caught up and surpassed them with better paints. Though the thought did cross my mind if the whole thing started from a joke about stitching up Duncan Rhodes by making a One Thin Coat paint that went too far...

 

1 hour ago, FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants said:

I am thinking of the various colour schemes I can use these for. For my Salamanders Space Marines, I’m am thinking of using Lustria No.3 as a basescoat, recess shading/black lining with Vallejo Carribean Turquoise, edge highlighting with Plage Toad Venom No.3 and then an all over glaze with Two Thin Coats Yellow Glaze.

 

One thing I've seen pointed out is since the saturation is better at the top end, you can just highlight in the colour you want, you don't necessarily need to go up whiter/yellower than you want and blend it back in with a glaze, particularly noticeable in the reds. Though doing so to filter the whole colour is of course still legit. I'm eyeing up bloodtoof for highlighting/repairing slips on my ink airbrushed blood angels reboot, as my current paints aren't great (I have way too many reds, but most of them are very old). A good green triad for highlighting ork skin is also highly tempting given Armageddon eyeing my from my backlog and my few greens trend foresty.

[Xenith]

The only application I've seen of these paints is globbing it on and letting it dry. I presume with whatever consistency they have you can do use them as regular paints for highlighting etc? 

[appiah4]

7 hours ago, Arkhanist said:

I'm genuinely quite intrigued by tone pro, because the scuttlebutt is they've based them on liquid pigments, which could potentially be something different than Yet Another Paint Range.

 

First; liquid pigments are not new - but I think the way they're being used might be.

Generally, the modelling paint we use has much the same things in it:

- Pigment: insoluble coloured particles.

- Binder: a transparent acrylic polymer that dries into a film as the water evaporates.

- Water & dispersants: these keep the pigment particles in suspension.

- Fillers: talc, silica, etc. These add body and matte down the glossy binder.

- Thickeners: sets the creaminess/body of the paint

- Retarders: extend working time.

 

There's a bunch you can do with playing with that chemistry, the amount of dry pigment (weathering powder is basically just this part), self-levelling, flow, satin vs matt finish, how much the different pigments that are combined to make up a colour can separate with water etc etc, and that's largely where you get the differences between e.g. citadel, AK gen 3, vallejo's reboot, fanatic, pro acryl, scale 75 etc etc.

 

One problem is that many vibrant pigments are organic, and their refractive index is similar to the binder, so they are also quite translucent. So you need something to provide opacity (coverage) - and that's TiO2, titanium dioxide  e.g. white, which is honking large, or more filler; either way you're pushing the paint towards physical chalkiness, and white scatters all light, so you reduce saturation - it makes it pastel. You can still fiddle plenty with the chemistry, and that's what we've seen over the last couple of decades. Hence the usual trade off - acrylic inks are basically acrylic paint without the fillers, thickeners and modest pigment load - they're quite vibrant, very liquid, and translucent. Great for airbrushing intense colours over white, but their coverage and control is pants with a brush. Then think of a typical light colour, like yellow - to get that coverage, it's likely chock full of filler and TiO2, runs the risk of going chalky if diluted for e.g. edge highlighting, and is either weak coverage or pastel.

 

Liquid pigments are very finely milled, and dispersed in water with dispersants - usually a very high pigment load. This stuff is what they use in high-grade artists acrylics for example - or if you've ever seen them mix custom colour paint at the DIY store by squirting a little liquid colour into a white base then shake it to mix, well that was liquid pigment.

One advantage of liquid pigment is because it's very well dispersed and not clumpy, you get more tinting per gram. And you can buy organic pigments with better opacity if they come in this format.

 

It's strongly suspected that the mono-colour contrast paints (the 2nd wave ones, like baal red, imperial fist etc) are liquid pigment based. The clever bit is if they've managed to turn that approach into a an opaque brush-ready paint. For starters, by starting from fixed liquid pigment concentrates, you squirt that in the rest of the brew, and you get the same mix of binder, thickeners and additives, rather than customising them based on the specific performance of the pigment combo (rubbish coverage, add moar filler). which gives you very similar behaviour across the range - something several of the pre-reviewers have called out. This is often used for this exact reason in industrial tinting. Instead of relying on so much white and filler to give you opacity, you've got your liquid-only organic pigments, and a higher pigment load to do it - so you don't have to sacrifice saturation for your lighter colours (which are still likely the midtone + white at the heart). There's several ways to do self-levelling; maybe flow aid. 

 

Where this setup will breakdown is glazing. With such a finely dispersed high pigment load giving strong tinting, you need to add a LOT of water to get down to the translucency you'd expect from a traditional acrylic modelling paint. Dilute your binder too much, it's going to be hard to control, and it'll dry patchy, tide-marks, lift easily etc. Hence the shading medium, as you have to put more acrylic binder in, not just water when you're thinning it right down.

 

This approach is not new. Golden, Liquitex, Daler-Rowney etc use liquid pigments already, but their target market is people with a 6 foot canvas, not a 30mm hard plastic figurine so a) they sell it in like 200ml bottles or tubes, b) even liquid versions tend to be pretty thick so it intentionally holds brushstrokes, and usually stays open for a long period so c) getting it to an appropriate consistency/flow/finish for use with models and a size 0 brush can involve quite a bit of mediums and becoming a bit of a chemist. (pro-tip those mediums though, way cheaper per ml). d) when you're mixing tints to cover big areas, you tend to stick to single pigments. No pre-mixed subtle pentad graduations for you, you mix them yourself. e) artists are prepared to pay top-dollar for the best pigments, and toxicity is tolerated for saturation. This is not true for stuff intentional sold to children next to the plastic toys, with a much higher chance of ingestion.

 

Closest example of the artist approach in the hobby space would probably be Kimera Pure Pigments. Single hue high load pigments. With a range of 39, you need to mix them yourself. Coverage depends upon the underlying coverage of the pigment itself, so traditional weak coverage for certain hues (yellow etc). Satin finish. Mixing needs to be very careful, as strong pigments will overwhelm weak ones. £5 a pot. All absolutely great for pros who love mixing their own graduations, are blending and glazing individual miniatures to an incredible standard.

 

Not so great for slapping down your army base coat and wanting repeatable highlights in identical shades over and over again. Biggest downside of course is the cost - high intensity liquid pigments plus the rest is not going to be cheap, plus it's not going to be as low-toxicity with the extra stuff (self-levelling, consistent flow etc), plus GW tax. But Two thin paints is £4.50 a pot, and lots of people love those. So I don't think the price alone is a breaker. The pots are, well, GW sees them as a highly recognisable brand that nobody else uses, and you can paint direct from them, so that's not going to change. And really try to break the habit of licking your brush with them I suspect, i.e. the 16/18+ label - if bacteria laden dirty rinse water isn't enough. So not for everyone, absolutely.

 

But a liquid, high flow paint, that's consistent between colours, isn't chalky or spidery off the brush, with strong coverage and decent saturation? Sounds like everything I've ever wanted for an edge paint. I already have good coverage base paints (airbrush, pro acryl etc), contrast type paints are great for speed and organic texture, but I've been looking for better edge paints, in a decent pre-mixed range. Reaper MSP is hard to get in the UK, and my existing pots are really showing their age, and coverage is so-so. Fanatic paints are nice, but edge painting with them seems harder than it should, Gen 3 is all over the place range wise (though I'm trying out some). I find myself keep going back to citadel layers, simply because I can get them to behave even if it is pastel city. If the top ends of Tone pro aren't it, then I'll probably give TTC another go now the range has widened.

 

 

There. Is. NO. Such. Thing. As. LIQUID PIGMENT.

 

It does not exist.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 08:29 AM by appiah4

[Arkhanist]

Check out the Darcy and Ninjon videos from the previous page - Stupid name black 5 matches the best white on the market for opacity and flow off the brush, and ninjon shows it seems to work nicely for conventional layer highlighting with feathering given the viscosity from the pot, with the performance consistency between colours being a particular plus point. Pentads/flexible triads are a love-em hate-em thing - some of the paints are likely skippable since you could potentially mix from two of the pentad or just add white, and the darker colours are less interesting simply because strong coverage dark colours pretty much everyone does gud now, so the novelty is the self-levelling there. Though being able to paint a consistent dark-to-light layered scheme without needing a wash for shading (then re-doing the base coat selectively) or a glaze to resaturate pastel edging, could be interesting for hordes.

[Redcomet]

Blending and glazing seems to be this ranges mainly drawback. So as with every other paint range, it doesn’t do everything. It seems to be aimed at the GW paint style of easy basecoating, a shade and an edge highlight.

I am excited for the vibrancy and the coverage. I can see myself replacing all my warpaints fanatics with these, as I am not a super fan of that range, as the paints often are too pastel for me

44 minutes ago, Xenith said:

The only application I've seen of these paints is globbing it on and letting it dry. I presume with whatever consistency they have you can do use them as regular paints for highlighting etc? 

The globbing on is only because one influencer tried it so now they all have to. You apply it like regular paints in a normal layer

[appiah4]

Vallejo "blob test": https://www.instagram.com/reel/Ddvq0MgqdkQ/?stkn=MXc5ZjE4YnB1aDU3NA==

 

At this point the whole OMGZ ONE THICK COAT hype is comical..

Edited yesterday at 10:14 AM by appiah4

[Redcomet]

2 minutes ago, appiah4 said:

Vallejo "blob test": https://www.instagram.com/reel/Ddvq0MgqdkQ/?stkn=MXc5ZjE4YnB1aDU3NA==

 

At this poşnt the whole OMGZ ONE THICK COAT hype is comical..

It must be weird to be a SoMe staffer or influencer. The race to copy every one and everything.

[Waaagh?]

Went had had a go of these this morning. They're very good, lovely coverage, smooth drying and worked nicely on a wet pallet.

 

10th of Oct preorder and they're £4 a pot in GW stores. The stores will be stocking the full range too.

[Lord Marshal]

1 hour ago, appiah4 said:

Vallejo "blob test": https://www.instagram.com/reel/Ddvq0MgqdkQ/?stkn=MXc5ZjE4YnB1aDU3NA==

 

At this point the whole OMGZ ONE THICK COAT hype is comical..

 

I think the hype is more that they're idiot proof and showing that the self-levelling is so good that even leaving a heavily streaked/blob of paint will still result in it levelling out and looking smooth. The Blob Test is just showing how idiot proof they really are, which gives people who dislike or are new to painting more confidence to... actually paint. It's Contrast all over again really.

 

The Blob Tests also don't tend to move it around/blend it out like he's doing on that Squidmar(tm) Vallejo paint. Yeah you can blend out most paints (you'd hope), but I can take an old pre-Fanatic AP paint, thin it down and eventually get a smooth, opaque blue... it's just gonna take a lot longer and with much greater risk of brush strokes. Showing blue (one of those colours which traditionally has good coverage) over a grey is also quite funny if they're trying to show these up.

 

A lot of people really, really, really, desperately want these to be terrible so that GW catches an L but at the end of the day these are primarily being aimed at Lil Timmy and/or people who aren't very experienced painters (sans maybe the black, white and yellows). 

 

Edited yesterday at 11:20 AM by Lord Marshal

[Deakz28]

41 minutes ago, Lord Marshal said:

 

I think the hype is more that they're idiot proof and showing that the self-levelling is so good that even leaving a heavily streaked/blob of paint will still result in it levelling out and looking smooth. The Blob Test is just showing how idiot proof they really are, which gives people who dislike or are new to painting more confidence to... actually paint. It's Contrast all over again really.

 

The Blob Tests also don't tend to move it around/blend it out like he's doing on that Squidmar(tm) Vallejo paint. Yeah you can blend out most paints (you'd hope), but I can take an old pre-Fanatic AP paint, thin it down and eventually get a smooth, opaque blue... it's just gonna take a lot longer and with much greater risk of brush strokes. Showing blue (one of those colours which traditionally has good coverage) over a grey is also quite funny if they're trying to show these up.

 

I know a lot of people really, really, really, desperately want these to be terrible so that GW catches an L but at the end of the day these are primarily being aimed at Lil Timmy and not experienced painters (sans maybe the black, white and yellows). 

 

I do agree I think these are marketed for less experienced painters, and I think they’re fantastic for that, although odd they’re not promoted for under 16s, but staffers said they could still use them at my flgs, just not promoted for them. So feels odd, but I do think this will help a lot of people who are in the market of making their paint jobs look better, and hopefully it doesn’t teach them any bad base coating habits! Luckily I think for the layering and highlighting the paints won’t fix anything, so it’ll still help teach people how to master painting, and again I can’t see any issue with that! 
end of the day they’re good paints, abit pricey on 12ml for £4 but hey ho, and if people don’t like them or need them there’s no need to buy them. I personally won’t buy any except maybe the white, but I’m glad other people will enjoy them and get genuinely nice looking minis out of them :) 

[Kurgan the Lurker]

Lil Legend interviews one of the painters invited to the GW event:
 

 

[Flaherty]

Is there a chemical that makes them unsuitable for under 16s? I know they're being secretive, but I assume an SDS disclosure is required for anything particularly nasty?

[Kurgan the Lurker]

OmegonEdge also gives a review:

 

 

[DarkMark]

I popped into my local shops to check these out today. The 1st shop had a card game thing going on and no sign of the paints. I had slightly more success at the 2nd place. However, the store had only received a small sample box. I got to have a look at the paints in their sealed pots and that's all.

 

There were quite a few blues which didn't fire my synapses, tbh. The Redtoof #4 (?) did look a lot like Mephy Red I must say. None of the small selection really wowed me. The staffer said they would be a 13+ product so that's interesting. The shop is planning a painting demo for the 25th of October, which for me today was as useful as a chocolate teapot. 

[Gamiel]

4 hours ago, Arkhanist said:

Stupid name black 5

Is it not named "Blackstone Void 5"? And a void can be white.

[Arkhanist]

5 hours ago, appiah4 said:

There. Is. NO. Such. Thing. As. LIQUID PIGMENT.

 

It does not exist.

 

 

I'm absolutely not going to bother wasting time watching some 'because some guy on youtube said so'. They absolutely do, you can buy them, they are an industrial product that are used in many freaking processes for textiles, paper, epoxies, yes, paints, too many to mention. I have literally seen them being used, and the purpose of them is specifically to get different robust properties for high volume manufacturing, reducing waste, increasing tint, and repeatability of results. Yes, the organic and non-organic chemistry used to make them come from much the same place as powders - 5,12-Dihydroquinolino[2,3-b]acridine-7,14-dione etc etc is the same molecule no matter what you do to it mechanically - but the mechanical properties and additives and dispersion absolutely make them a real distinct thing. Don't confuse them with weathering pigments in some fixer (the hobby 'liquid pigments')

 

https://www.crodaindustrialspecialties.com/en-gb/applications/liquid-colour-concentrates

https://rakemgroup.co.uk/blog/what-are-pigment-slurries-and-how-do-they-enhance-colour-performance/

https://www.ingilby.co.uk/shop/Pigments-Liquid-Pigments-&-Raw-Materials-c27241644

 

Or talk to basically any industrial engineer, or read a book on dyes and pigments. Christ on a cracker, we're just denying massive industrial process that makes billions just 'does not exist' because you hate the idea that GW maybe employ some chemists to try and make a better product? Just like every other freaking paint company?

[Evil Eye]

Oh hey, Arkhanist, long time no see!

 

From what I've seen I'll probably be picking up a few colours for specific jobs that need high coverage (notably basecoating and freehand); Black and white are obvious picks, and I want to see how good the yellows and reds are as they're notoriously translucent colours. Also curious about Plague Toad Venom as it looks like a really nice acid green.

[Arkley]

The most hilarious reactions I have seen to Tone/Pro is the desperation to hate GW for maybe and actually possibly releasing a good product.

 

I got to try them today at my local GW... I got to paint a leg on a Assault Intercessor. One of the Gorkshrooms I think. It feels nice to use, but I am not gonna go all in... I am still on the path to try the Ultramar Blue Penta.

Edited 20 hours ago by Arkley

[Sabadin]

Got a chance to try them out today. I found contrary to the all the rage online they behaved pretty well with water as long you are aware they need more thinning than standard Citadel Colour range. They do work and look surprisingly well out of the pot, even without the current "blob" trend. The marine helmet in the attached image is 2 layers of unthinned yellow, washed with orange, 1 more layer untainted yellow, and one edge highlight of unthinned yellow mixed with unthinned white. Red thinned with water gave a fairly solid coat over the black with 2 layers.

 

The washing medium is less effective than one would be prepared for coming from Lahmian/Contrast medium, but also need to give patience with the final result. A 3:1 mix still looks pretty opaque when applied but does settle into the recesses nicely after.

 

Also the brochure they're giving out for the new range still advertises the full current Citadel Colour range and method on the reverse side, so hopefully puts that rumour to bed.

[Redcomet]

24 minutes ago, Arkley said:

The most hilarious reactions I have seen to Tone/Pro is the desperation to hate GW for maybe and actually possibly releasing a good product.

 

I got to try them today at my local GW... I got to paint a leg on a Assault Intercessor. One of the Gorkshrooms I think. It feels nice to use, but I am not gonna go all in... I am still on the path to try the Ultramar Blue Penta.

GW could give away free money and online communities would find some way to get angry about it

[Bryan Blaire]

From what I could tell from folks using them today in the shop I visited and the influencers’ videos - GW made some new paint. It has a couple of interesting properties, some which other paints already do. They don’t seem to replace anything anyone may already have, don’t necessarily do anything any better than paints already on the market, but have good coverage and flow, while seemingly having some drawbacks (one person I know paints well was having some difficulty mixing and blending with them, but others seem to have gotten it figured out - seemed like you can do more if both paints are still wet, which makes sense).

 

Good on GW for making what seems to be a good product (to me) that folks can use without going outside the GW ecosystem, but it doesn’t replace anything you can already find if you don’t need it. The pots still clearly leave a lot to be desired.

 

Nothing worth a lot of dislike over, but also nothing to give GW huge kudos over either.

 

The new range won’t change the way I currently paint, or what I paint with, but I’m happy for the folks that struggled to get better quality paints that this range will fill the niche for with GW branding, because I know that for some folks, that’s all they can get access to.

Edited 19 hours ago by Bryan Blaire

[Arkhanist]

6 hours ago, Flaherty said:

Is there a chemical that makes them unsuitable for under 16s? I know they're being secretive, but I assume an SDS disclosure is required for anything particularly nasty?

 

It will be, but they're not published yet. I can't imagine they're going to be particularly noxious, but not as non-hazardous* as e.g. citadel potentially, so sold as an art product rather than the more rigorous toy safety rules that apply to products marketed to children. E.g. biocides/preservatives to prevent mold growth, probably some small amount of surfactants for flow & self-levelling (not a new idea obviously, but new for citadel), propylene glycol or similar (extends open time, prevents freezing). Don't pour in your eyes, drink it, or pour it in your fish tank, basically. And have some ventilation & respirator if airbrushing (good practise with all brands for particulates at least, you only get one pair of lungs) for VOC.

 

Potentially more toxic pigments like cadmium (strong yellows) but it'd be unusual in hobby paint if they did; Vallejo had some but phased them out and they're relatively rare these days, as you definitely don't want to be airbrushing that (and it's pricy), so I'd expect a separate warning on the bottle if they used any heavy metal pigments.

 

*non hazardous does not mean zero risk, just very low risk for expected use. Still stop licking your brush.

Edited 18 hours ago by Arkhanist

[Lord Marshal]

Not letting me embed for some reason, but Helstorm Wargaming did a test with an airbrush. Unsurprisingly they needed a bit of thinning to go through properly without speckling, but they don't appear drastically different to putting any other paint through an airbrush while retaining excellent coverage. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-9s2WntoKNc

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Lord Marshal