It's all my fault.... (Guilliman)

[Prot]

I guess I should apologise to the Marine community in general, but the UM community specifically.

 

I took my 4th Guilliman out and put him together last week. I literally decided to play him regardless of his 'rules' and I started putting paint to the model late last week. This week... the point leaks came out and it was only then that I realized what I had done.

 

At 415 points (allegedly as of this writing) he seems... VERY expensive. So for now I'm trying to convince myself that this is truly worth it.

 

What do you think? Is Guillman worth  400+ pts.

[Karhedron]

Hard to say he is worth it when his brother the Lion is sitting there at 335 points and is arguably better.

[Tacitus]

6 hours ago, Karhedron said:

Hard to say he is worth it when his brother the Lion is sitting there at 335 points and is arguably better.

Have we seen his new datasheet yet?  I've seen hints/discussion but not the sheet itself.  I think.

 

And where did the points leak?

 

As for is Guilliman worth 415?  He's almost an Imperial Knight just on his beat stick profile and he's got the aura and the doctrine dispenser.  It depends on what you can pair him with and what you can do with him.  He's not something you can ad-lib or half-way with.  You've pretty much gotta have a plan and work it hard.

[Karhedron]

The Lion's datasheet hasn't leaked yet but there is a pretty thorough description of his abilities here.

 

https://www.tabletopbattles.com/11th-edition-datasheet-review-dark-angels

 

Basically he is slightly less tactical than Roboute but comes with a 3++ so is pretty much equal in terms of value but 20% cheaper.

Edited 8 hours ago by Karhedron

[Prot]

Yea there are a lot of people out there asking 'how do we take on the Lion?' The 3+ invuln has everyone shaking their head a bit. I think that invuln plus the ability to shake off Dev wounds on a 4+ (don't quote me on that) as opposed to Gman's flat 5+ FnP is huge.

 

But it's not like I'm complaining about Gman. His profile is no slouch! Losing the get back up rule for.... is it 16 wounds? Seems pretty resilient, and I think the re-roll aura is huge in the face of losing Oath and rerolls seem hard to come by now. But is all this worth more than 400 ?

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

The Lion's datasheet hasn't leaked yet but there is a pretty thorough description of his abilities here.

 

https://www.tabletopbattles.com/11th-edition-datasheet-review-dark-angels

 

Basically he is slightly less tactical than Roboute but comes with a 3++ so is pretty much equal in terms of value but 20% cheaper.

There's also a FNP Difference.  Guilliman is 5+++ all the time, The Lion is 4+++ situationally (Mortals and Psychics only).  I think I'd rather have the 5+++ for everything.  The Lion is not going to have Superdoctrines, he only has the pick one (potentially additional) doctrine per turn.  It depends on what he is going to end up with to compare to Guilliman's other abilities - Primarch of the XIII and Author of the Codex - And the 3++ Invuln isn't new or a change.  He's had the 3++ for as long as he's been around I think.  The changes are +1T and +6W which sounds like a lot more than it is. 

 

The things to really look at for a direct comparison haven't been leaked/shown yet.  Guilliman got two buff-bot abilities to replace his Primarch Pick Two's - and the FNP replaces his Stand Back Up.  The Lion does not - as yet - have any buff-bot.  He has two abilities that only affect himself.  It SOUNDS LIKE he's at least for now keeping his Primarch Pick Twos, and his Pick Watcher gives a 5+++ to units within x" - he may or may not keep his Reroll 1s within X" (I'm guessing he does) which leaves the Shadow First Turn Deepstrike/Ingress as his third.  Does he keep Deep Strike at all?  But again this is just guesswork until they release/leak his whole sheet.  If what they showed is all he gets he's not in Guilliman's class and being cheaper makes sense.  Even if he does keep his Primarch Pick Two plus his new self buffs I still think Guilliman is in a better position.  Especially if they again don't fix the Lion's keywords.