40k September & Marine Stats Update

[Lathe Biosas]

I'm guessing Bolters across the game got an upgrade. 

 

I guess Militarum players are going to be taking every Bolt Pistol upgrade available  now.

[01RTB01]

8 minutes ago, Kommisar_K said:

 

8 minutes ago, Kommisar_K said:

 

Ey I won't complain if we see a little more durability in armies all around. It's fun to exchange fire for a couple rounds before the casualty count really starts going up. Poor DG might be worthy of a little pity but if everything starts going up in toughness GW will end up having to rework the stat altogether. 

 

Is there a roadmap yet for codexes besides, what, the Custodes and Tau?

 

Apparently tau then either nids or dark eldar. I'd be intrigued to see the new dark eldar stuff that's coming.

Edited yesterday at 06:27 PM by 01RTB01
Accidental double post. Apologies.

[Zoatibix]

I hope that Drukhari get a huge update of the units they've had sent to Legends, along with (and this isn't a likely but hopium) some of our many missing Characters.

We don't need new units, we just need back what we've lost but in plastic with some options.  

 

[Mogger351]

8 minutes ago, Lathe Biosas said:

I'm guessing Bolters across the game got an upgrade. 

 

I guess Militarum players are going to be taking every Bolt Pistol upgrade available  now.

This is the point though, they haven't yet.

 

It does (to me) point towards a bolter is a bolter and guard/sisters go to S5 ap-1 bolters.

 

This seems to be displeasing to marines players?

[Crimson Longinus]

Personally I am very displeased that SoB didn't get an update.  And apparently they only updated bolters and chainswords for CSM, the other weapons that are same weapons that loyalist marines have weren't touched. It is a mess. I get wanting to revamp the stats, but this should have happened in a index edition and not like this.

[Borbarad]

3 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Speaking of Legends, the Kratos tank looks absolutely brilliant in terms of rules.

 

Might be putting that bad boy on the table!

 

Where did you find the rules for the Kratos? I have trouble finding the HH vehicles and cost for legend units. 

[Dudley Nightshade]

14 minutes ago, Borbarad said:

 

Where did you find the rules for the Kratos? I have trouble finding the HH vehicles and cost for legend units. 

There's a little slider at the top-right to “Show Legends”.

[Borbarad]

12 minutes ago, Dudley Nightshade said:

There's a little slider at the top-right to “Show Legends”.

I know there use to be one in a previews version of the field manual, but can't seem to find it anymore:

 

Nevermind, it on the faction level. But for some reason i could not find it in the World Eaters section, despite them having access to a few legends units.

 

Edited yesterday at 08:17 PM by Borbarad

[Dudley Nightshade]

54 minutes ago, Borbarad said:

I know there use to be one in a previews version of the field manual, but can't seem to find it anymore:

 

Nevermind, it on the faction level. But for some reason i could not find it in the World Eaters section, despite them having access to a few legends units.

 

Ah, I found it easy to miss. Thought it might have been hiding from you. 

[techsoldaten]

Getting back to the topic at hand, personally stoked about the updates for Chaos.

S 5 AP -1 Bolters and T6 Terminators are what I thought they needed for several editions. 3 wound Havocs sorts a weakness I have currently and the new wound profile makes them roughly as durable as a Predator (not as tough, but about as many wounds.) 

For my current Black Legion list, the net change is +20 points. Very small nerf for a pretty big toughness boost.

[Evil Eye]

15 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

tournaments

Honestly at this point tournament play needs its own set of restrictions and for the points adjustments to be confined to a document with "FOR TOURNAMENT USE ONLY AND NOT MEANT FOR REGULAR PLAY" written on it in large red letters. That way tournament players can have a more balanced experience and the rest of us can play the game in peace without having to worry about our army list being invalidated every week by balancing patches that just break the game elsewhere.

[Mogger351]

25 minutes ago, techsoldaten said:

Getting back to the topic at hand, personally stoked about the updates for Chaos.

S 5 AP -1 Bolters and T6 Terminators are what I thought they needed for several editions. 3 wound Havocs sorts a weakness I have currently and the new wound profile makes them roughly as durable as a Predator (not as tough, but about as many wounds.) 

For my current Black Legion list, the net change is +20 points. Very small nerf for a pretty big toughness boost.

That would mean it's not a nerf, it means that your units get net more powerful and are likely under costed in relation to none power armour factions.

[jaxom]

I’m curious if the PDF release dataslate will have the thing for Sanguinary Guard where chateaxtwrs who can join certain units can join them.

[Blindhamster]

12 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

That would mean it's not a nerf, it means that your units get net more powerful and are likely under costed in relation to none power armour factions.

Or… the list mostly didn’t use things that actually really benefited

[Mogger351]

11 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Or… the list mostly didn’t use things that actually really benefited

Nah the chaos point changes are tiny for what they got largely and their not legends tanks got reduced to compensate for reasons I don't see.

[Karhedron]

19 minutes ago, jaxom said:

I’m curious if the PDF release dataslate will have the thing for Sanguinary Guard where chateaxtwrs who can join certain units can join them.

 

Don't worry, even if they don't it is listed in the MFM that Jump Captains can lead them. 

 

 

35 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Honestly at this point tournament play needs its own set of restrictions and for the points adjustments to be confined to a document with "FOR TOURNAMENT USE ONLY AND NOT MEANT FOR REGULAR PLAY" written on it in large red letters. That way tournament players can have a more balanced experience and the rest of us can play the game in peace without having to worry about our army list being invalidated every week by balancing patches that just break the game elsewhere.

 

You always have that option. You are your opponent aren't obliged to use the updates. You can just use the stats and points printed in the codices if you want.

Edited 10 hours ago by Karhedron

[Mogger351]

Well obligatory suck it up everyone else, btw Drukhari are a dying race of people who fear their souls being consumed on death feed bodies into the grinder horde schmuck faction article:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/vzqu6tzw/warhammer-40000-balance-update-chaos-the-imperium-and-xenos-fight-back/

[techsoldaten]

48 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

That would mean it's not a nerf, it means that your units get net more powerful and are likely under costed in relation to none power armour factions.

Any points increase is a nerf. The changes affected Predators, Havocs and Terminators in my list. If Predators stayed the same, it would be a +45 swing.

I suspect the point cost for the Predators were reduced because of the Hidden rule. They can't benefit from it the same way Havocs could. Both units could have 48 inch lascannons, but only one can't be shot from more than 15" inches away.

Huge difference in first turn survivability. 

[Mogger351]

8 minutes ago, techsoldaten said:

Any points increase is a nerf. The changes affected Predators, Havocs and Terminators in my list. If Predators stayed the same, it would be a +45 swing.

I suspect the point cost for the Predators were reduced because of the Hidden rule. They can't benefit from it the same way Havocs could. Both units could have 48 inch lascannons, but only one can't be shot from more than 15" inches away.

Huge difference in first turn survivability. 

Right, your units got both more deadly and more resilient, you gained 5 wounds on the havocs, strength and ap on bolters, then toughness on the terminators. If you believe that's a nerf because it cost a whole 45 points (which btw both units were increased in multiple of 10 points, so it's not just those units), then I don't know what to tell you. It's 10 terminators and 10 havocs? You benefitted a lot.

 

The tanks aren't cheaper due to terrain interactions or all factions tanks would have dropped. If anything they're cheaper as a result of bolters wounding main tanks on 5s now. Note again, not the same for other factions.

[techsoldaten]

43 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Right, your units got both more deadly and more resilient, you gained 5 wounds on the havocs, strength and ap on bolters, then toughness on the terminators. If you believe that's a nerf because it cost a whole 45 points (which btw both units were increased in multiple of 10 points, so it's not just those units), then I don't know what to tell you. It's 10 terminators and 10 havocs? You benefitted a lot.

 

The tanks aren't cheaper due to terrain interactions or all factions tanks would have dropped. If anything they're cheaper as a result of bolters wounding main tanks on 5s now. Note again, not the same for other factions.

Fair observation about the tanks.

For my list, it's 5 Terminators, 3 x Havocs and 3 x Predators. The points changes mean I have to sacrifice Cultists to continue running it. 

So a nerf is a nerf, even if it nets out low. It still means I have to change my list.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

Well obligatory suck it up everyone else, btw Drukhari are a dying race of people who fear their souls being consumed on death feed bodies into the grinder horde schmuck faction article:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/vzqu6tzw/warhammer-40000-balance-update-chaos-the-imperium-and-xenos-fight-back/

 

The core argument -- mentioned i think 3 or 4 times within -- is that non-Marine armies are fine because there will be fewer Marines per army due to the point changes.

 

I'm not convinced that's enough.  Maybe time will adjust that opinion.

[Mogger351]

3 minutes ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

 

The core argument -- mentioned i think 3 or 4 times within -- is that non-Marine armies are fine because there will be fewer Marines per army due to the point changes.

 

I'm not convinced that's enough.  Maybe time will adjust that opinion.

I mean to run with the above example that gained 15 T5 wounds alongside the other increased profiles at the cost of 10 cultists, that's not really doing a lot. If anything in that example there are now more power armour wounds on the table than before.

[Blindhamster]

21 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

I mean to run with the above example that gained 15 T5 wounds alongside the other increased profiles at the cost of 10 cultists, that's not really doing a lot. If anything in that example there are now more power armour wounds on the table than before.

keeping in mind that chaos marines have been one of the worst performing armies since 11e dropped (only astra militarum, imperial knights, blood angels and imperial agents doing worse)... they maybe didnt see as much of a price hike as perhaps they were deemed a little over costed originally.

 

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

You always have that option. You are your opponent aren't obliged to use the updates. You can just use the stats and points printed in the codices if you want.

 

My own personal experience confirms this - the best option for people with this mindset is to simply not play in the current system. There are many other ways to play 40k that do not require Current Edition/Latest Patch.

 

However (in my opinion), it should be the other way around. The onus should be on tournaments to adjust a fluffy wargaming ruleset to their competitive game mode, not on the rest of the customer base to adjust to changes made for tournaments. When more and more people go "nah, not playing this mode" and start fracturing into ever-smaller groups using different rules, what is the end result?

 

Obviously tournament players have already "won" this, because GW does in fact build and adjust their published rules based on tournament feedback. Arguing about it here is not going to reverse that.

[Northern Walker]

I find the differences between equivalent weapons on different datasheets really odd - heavy bolters right now are particularly egregious.

 

I really miss the old systems and design ethos.