Heresy ain't narrative

[Gorgoff]

I can only recommend anyone who hadn't already to "get" the first two black books.

Betrayal has some awesome material about how legions were structured and each one which handles your legion has tons of stuff about those. So get them as well. 

I have all and was even able to get a physical copy of book three which is about some of my most favorite legions. 

Awesome books. 

[Marshal Rohr]

11 hours ago, jaxom said:

 

The journals or the libers? I'd love to see what they have.

 

 

I probably could have gotten away with calling the 2 Tac Squads+Support Squad a platoon instead of a strategic unit.

 

Okay, checked BB1: Betrayal and it is 2 battalions per chapter, 5 companies per battalion, and 100 marines per company. I did miss a detail in he Principia Bellicosa image specifying company 1 was veterans, 2-4 were line companies, and 5 was composed of specialist troops; which is weird because it was next to thing I remembered previously reading.

 

Per HH5: Tempest, it's specifically the War-born who operated companies of 1000 Marines, with 10 companies per chapter, while "the XIIIth Legion had remained true to the strictures of the Principia Bellicosa, as laid down by the Emperor and his advisors at the beginning of the Great Crusade" and "they made little attempt to re-codify the structure or vary the size of individual units," compared to other Legions who strayed from the Principia Bellicosa. As a pseudo-historian of a fictional setting, my supposition was the War-born represented a post-Solar Wars Principia Bellicosa legion compared to the original post-Unification War/beginning of the Great Crusade Principia Bellicosa legion. I.e. same structure, just more companies per chapter to account for larger legions.

The Libers themselves, it’s breaks down the “strike forces” and the difference between Battalion, Company (Legiones Imperialis), and Demi-Company (AoD) strike forces. It’s only a page long and right before the reprinted Org Chart from 1st edition. 

[Griefbringer]

15 hours ago, jaxom said:

I probably could have gotten away with calling the 2 Tac Squads+Support Squad a platoon instead of a strategic unit.

 

That would certainly make the text more readable, and I would find it quite descriptive for a unit of 50 astartes led by a junior officer. Even if it is a term that is not actually used in source material. [As regards astartes "strategic unit", I would consider the battalion to be the smallest one in the 30K setting (*).]

 

Personally, however, I would prefer to call it "demi-company" as that is a term that appears in the source material - at least in the diagram in the Legions Imperialis book, which I presume is reproduced from an earlier source. According to my dictionary, that term literally translates as "half-company" (**), which works well in relation to the original 100 legionaire company (consisting of two demi-companies, company command element plus company level tactical assets). However, it would be less appropriate term for legions with companies much larger than the original 100 man structure.

 

As to the other criticism I had, maybe I should reiterate:

 

1.) "Chapters consisted of two battalions, thus each battalion was 500 Astartes."

 

While this is definitely true for the Principia Bellicosa chapter (1 000 legionaries), it appears in the context of the Ultramarine organisation, where an Ultramarine chapter has just been defined as being 10 000 legionaries strong (***).  Perhaps the honourable pseudo-historian might want to more clearly differentiate as to which kind of chapter is being referred at which point. The same with company, as there is a major difference between Principia Bellicosa company (100 legionaries) and Ultramarine company (1 000 legionaries).

 

2.) "A chapter being 10 companies and a company probably being 10 such strategic units is unlikely a coincidence."

 

Assuming that company here refers to a Ultramarine company (1 000 legionaires) and the "such strategic unit" refers to a platoon-style structure (50 legionaires and junior officer) then the numbers just do not add up (10 x 50 = 500). It would certainly make sense for there to be intermediate level units at 500 and 100 legionaire levels. Assuming that the Ultramarines kept the Principia Bellicosa (PB) organisation and pretty much just shifted names up one decade (1 000 marine chapter being renamed as company), then 500 marine (PB) battalion might be referred to as demi-company in Ultramarine organisation. However, this leaves open what 100 man Ultramarine would be called - could it be "deci-company" (one tenth of a company)? Also, do the Ultramarine chapters (10 000 astartes) have an intermediate half-chapter organisation (5 000 astartes) that they would call battalion?

 

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

(*) About Strategic Astartes units: in my view, for an Astartes unit to qualify as "strategic", it should have integral strategic level mobility and ability to carry out independent operations. Which in the case of Astartes is achieved by major spacecraft (strike cruisers, battle barges) carrying the marines, drop pods, gunships/dropships, teleporters, supplies and maintenance/medical facilities. This allows a unit to travel (and fight) independently in space, conduct planetary assaults on strategic objectives, as well as recover and repair personnel and equipment afterwards. In 30K context, such assets are typically concentrated at battalion (500 astartes). Post second founding re-organisation, individual companies tend to have access to their own strike cruiser, making them effectively into strategic units.

 

(**) Apparently, in some circumstances companies could be expanded by attaching a third demi-company (or possibly more), while keeping the demi-company term, in which case it should no longer be taken in the literal "half-company" sense. Not that it should be taken very literally in the first place, as the company command and company level assets are not (fixed) part of either demi-company - though on field they can be temporarily attached.

 

(***) To complicate Ultramarine organisation further, the Evocatii chapters are described as being "double-strength" (HH 2.0 rulebook, page 81), though what this exactly means is left unclear. Though how this was achieved in practice is a bit unclear, especially as the same source mentions that "many Evocatii would not be deemed worthy to become Legionaries". Typically, the astartes organisations are expressed purely in the numbers of legionaries present, not counting the numerous chapter thralls/serfs/non-legionaires found in supporting roles (manning spacecraft, assisting techmarines in repair and maintenance, running other logistic duties). Presumably, the Evocatii chapter organisations would need to somehow account for the large numbers of neophytes present.

 

Edit: regarding the term "War-born" in relation to Ultramarines, my understanding is that it refers to the original units recruited from Terra, and was a term associated with the Ultramarines in the early days of the Great Crusade, falling out of use later on. In this context, the war in question would be the Unification Wars, and what was "born" of that war. 

Edited Wednesday at 12:22 PM by Griefbringer
Regarding term "war-born"

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Griefbringer said:

 

That would certainly make the text more readable, and I would find it quite descriptive for a unit of 50 astartes led by a junior officer. Even if it is a term that is not actually used in source material. [As regards astartes "strategic unit", I would consider the battalion to be the smallest one in the 30K setting (*).]

 

I'm not really up to snuff on military terms, so when I think of strategic unit, I think of what would be required to achieve a strategic goal on a battlefield. I do think you are correct that battalion is the smallest self-sufficient strategic unit; and as you note later, would have a ship and other logistical assets.

 

1 hour ago, Griefbringer said:

Personally, however, I would prefer to call it "demi-company" as that is a term that appears in the source material - at least in the diagram in the Legions Imperialis book, which I presume is reproduced from an earlier source. According to my dictionary, that term literally translates as "half-company" (**), which works well in relation to the original 100 legionaire company (consisting of two demi-companies, company command element plus company level tactical assets). However, it would be less appropriate term for legions with companies much larger than the original 100 man structure.

 

I agree, battalion is half a chapter and demi-company is half a company. I think it's probably why there isn't a platoon-equivalent; the demi-company is supposed to be it. Then as legions started changing, they introduced their own structures and terms. For example, if I recall correctly, the Luna Wolves didn't have a set structure below the company level.

 

EDIT: Demi-company was not included in the HH1 diagram, it was added for the Libers and LI.

 

 

1 hour ago, Griefbringer said:

As to the other criticism I had, maybe I should reiterate:

 

1.) "Chapters consisted of two battalions, thus each battalion was 500 Astartes."

 

While this is definitely true for the Principia Bellicosa chapter (1 000 legionaries), it appears in the context of the Ultramarine organisation, where an Ultramarine chapter has just been defined as being 10 000 legionaries strong (***).  Perhaps the honourable pseudo-historian might want to more clearly differentiate as to which kind of chapter is being referred at which point. The same with company, as there is a major difference between Principia Bellicosa company (100 legionaries) and Ultramarine company (1 000 legionaries).

 

Yes, it would provide more clarity. Part of the problem I have with the Principia Bellicosa material is how HH5 describes its use by the XIIIth Legion before Guilliman. I use War-born to refer to that time period. They supposedly don't stray from its organization principles but do have larger company sizes. I don't know if this was a slip up on a writer's part or on purpose. Assuming it was on purpose and the War-born were the most orthodox in dealing with increased legion size compared to Unification Wars-era, etc.

 

1 hour ago, Griefbringer said:

2.) "A chapter being 10 companies and a company probably being 10 such strategic units is unlikely a coincidence."

 

Assuming that company here refers to a Ultramarine company (1 000 legionaires) and the "such strategic unit" refers to a platoon-style structure (50 legionaires and junior officer) then the numbers just do not add up (10 x 50 = 500). It would certainly make sense for there to be intermediate level units at 500 and 100 legionaire levels. Assuming that the Ultramarines kept the Principia Bellicosa (PB) organisation and pretty much just shifted names up one decade (1 000 marine chapter being renamed as company), then 500 marine (PB) battalion might be referred to as demi-company in Ultramarine organisation. However, this leaves open what 100 man Ultramarine would be called - could it be "deci-company" (one tenth of a company)? Also, do the Ultramarine chapters (10 000 astartes) have an intermediate half-chapter organisation (5 000 astartes) that they would call battalion?

 

Correct, that doesn't math. I think I either confused battalions with companies when I wrote it or confused which chapter size when I wrote it (it's been a few years since I wrote the original which I copy-and-pasted for the post). Or I just messed up the math 

 

1 hour ago, Griefbringer said:

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

(**) Apparently, in some circumstances companies could be expanded by attaching a third demi-company (or possibly more), while keeping the demi-company term, in which case it should no longer be taken in the literal "half-company" sense. Not that it should be taken very literally in the first place, as the company command and company level assets are not (fixed) part of either demi-company - though on field they can be temporarily attached.

 

I think the writers stressing "strike forces" while keeping demi-company to describe size is the issue. Like, a legion would not say their battalions had three demi-company strike forces in them but someone writing out the size would describe it as three demi-companies. Luna Wolves, providing another good example, would probably just say a company of 300 hundred marines made from various squads and some quill-pusher would say it's six demi-companies.

 

1 hour ago, Griefbringer said:

(***) To complicate Ultramarine organisation further, the Evocatii chapters are described as being "double-strength" (HH 2.0 rulebook, page 81), though what this exactly means is left unclear. Though how this was achieved in practice is a bit unclear, especially as the same source mentions that "many Evocatii would not be deemed worthy to become Legionaries". Typically, the astartes organisations are expressed purely in the numbers of legionaries present, not counting the numerous chapter thralls/serfs/non-legionaires found in supporting roles (manning spacecraft, assisting techmarines in repair and maintenance, running other logistic duties). Presumably, the Evocatii chapter organisations would need to somehow account for the large numbers of neophytes present.

 

Yeah, that's what made the Evocatii weird; they had the equivalent of 40k Scouts on the battlefield and part of the table of battle.

 

1 hour ago, Griefbringer said:

Edit: regarding the term "War-born" in relation to Ultramarines, my understanding is that it refers to the original units recruited from Terra, and was a term associated with the Ultramarines in the early days of the Great Crusade, falling out of use later on. In this context, the war in question would be the Unification Wars, and what was "born" of that war. 

 

It was also the cognomen for the legion until Guilliman was found.

Edited Wednesday at 01:39 PM by jaxom

[Griefbringer]

2 hours ago, jaxom said:

I agree, battalion is half a chapter and demi-company is half a company. I think it's probably why there isn't a platoon-equivalent; the demi-company is supposed to be it. Then as legions started changing, they introduced their own structures and terms. For example, if I recall correctly, the Luna Wolves didn't have a set structure below the company level.

 

EDIT: Demi-company was not included in the HH1 diagram, it was added for the Libers and LI.

 

Good catch about the demi-company being later addition to the diagram - I only have the later version and assumed that it was present also in the original one. It is also quite a small change, so not really noticeable unless you really know to look for it specifically. That diagram also tends to pay quite a lot of attention to the presence of various flag-bearing marines in the organisation.

 

Speaking of the nominal company (100 legionaires) organisations, it actually bears some similarity to the late 19th century British army infantry company (around Zulu War era), which was nominally 1 captain, 2 lieutenants and 100 other ranks (including a flag-bearer). My understanding is that in action it could be split into two half-company platoons, each commanded by one of the lieutenants. This might be a coincidence, or the author might have been familiar with the historical parallel.

 

But back to the 30K era, an important issue with "strike forces" is that while the demi-companies could be employed independently under right circumstances, a lot of time they were reinforced in one fashion or another. And considering the amount of support assets available at the company, battalion (including I and V companies) and chapter level, they could be potentially very heavily reinforced for key actions. That said, I am left wondering how many legionnaires are actually allocated to crew those support assets - this could add a fair bit of manpower above the nominal 1 000 legionnaires serving as infantry in the companies. Though in some cases marines from the line companies might also be expected to operate some of the vehicles when needed.

 

(One oddity with the support assets in the "famous diagram" is that battalions can have integral super-heavy detachment assets, but dropships - which presumably would be required to ferry such vehicles from orbit - are listed only as chapter assets. I will count this as an oversight, and assume that every strike cruiser carrying vehicles also has sufficiently big gunship, dropship or other orbital transport to ferry such cargo up and down).

[Xenith]

On 10/12/2026 at 9:17 PM, Brofist said:

I'll try to be brief- my thread on this forum has all the pictures and links. I worked with an events crew to pull this off and I stopped running LVO events so I could do this instead. Its a 3 day experience. I'm doing my third one next year.

1. Wrote a short players pack with a setting, fluff, short stories, custom art, and rules
2. We also designed and play-tested 7 custom missions. One was a DMed multiplayer experience that ran all 3 days and anyone could join or exit when they wanted
3. I designed and printed blanche themed tarot cards of different rarities that were part of decks assigned to each table 
4. Each table corresponded to a battlefield on a planet in a system. If a player won they got to draw a tarot card from the deck
5. If you played the multiplayer experience, you could draw a 'destiny' card which let you spend or use tarot cards in interesting ways if you fulfilled the requirements
6. Doing certain things during the 3 days could award a 'boon' or buff to a character model that was represented using a blanche themed card
7. We 3d printed, painted, and provided a unique model with rules that could be included for no points cost. If it did certain things during a game it would grant bonus tarot cards to the controlling player.
8. I kept track of how many cards were issued to different players on each battlefield. This determined who controlled and didn't control which worlds/parts of the system. If your side held a specific section you got benefits to the card mechanics.
9. At this event, each player represented a splinter fleet trying to escape a dying star system. At the end of the event I counted up the value of each faction's cards. The summed total for each faction determined the overall winner. The cards in your hand and your destiny determined the fate of your fleet.
10. I designed and manufactured a bunch of pins. If you won a game, you got a pin.
11. Each player also got two unique pins to give away to people they thought were cool dudes or did impressive hobby. At the end of the event the person with the most cool dude/dudette pins got a prize. We also had a raffle and fake sponsorships.
12. The player who was undefeated from the previous year's event was forced to wear a giant, heavy, golden chain called 'the lead weight'. None of their games contributed to the overall scores of the event. However, if somebody could beat them, the lead weight got passed onto a new player like a curse.
13. None of the games were matched. You either found somebody to play with and then found a table or you waited at a table until somebody joined you.
14. Fully painted was required. If you had an unpainted model in a unit, everyone else had preferred enemy (your unit). WYSIWYG was encouraged.
     

That's a lot to say that we wrote some special missions and then put a card mechanic ontop of it :) Everything was an optional, opt-in, type of experience with peer pressure/social shaming to discourage the type of behaviours we didn't want to see.

 

The core game wasn't touched besides the missions, so you could do this with another system. What made this unique to heresy? The narrative focused people who showed up and wanted this instead of matched play swiss pairings.

 

 

I'm going to be stealing a chunk of that!