Marine Chapter creation/must see.

[dragonking]

Look I know most marine candidates have been recruited at a fairly young age but old enough to show significant ability as a warrior. I also know that they are altered surgically to enhance there genetic structure etc....

 

What about this idea. Marines genetically engineered at the embriotic level and cultivated. From "birth" they are raised and trained to be the "Perfect" warriors and this process increases the speed in wich a chapter can be created...instead of a chapter takeing over 100 years to complete it would take a mere 25-30, if you have a large enough "Crop" you could feild an entire chapter in one fell swoop...and have there training be complete by the time they are in there mid 20's. Perhaps do an "experimental" Chapter in the current founding 26th I beleave.

 

Comments are greatly appreciated.

[Takeda-style]

The problem is that it wouldn't fit the current fluff. The reason for recruiting young at the moment is because procedures are so bad now older subjects can't survive. They would be incapable of doing this with embryo's.

 

 

Before the horus heresy, the technique was still so advanced that they could turn anyone into a space marine easily.

[Ferrata]

If they trained them as humans from birth to that special age, then turned them into marines they might come out better. So instead of taking the good warriors, they take perfect warriors in, thus the chapter becomes more skilled. Maybe have it as a rank of scout, to bring up the new recruits. Although, I cant see a marine putting a baby to bed ::cuss: All sounds a bit spartan to me.

 

Ferrata

[dragonking]

Ok I need to clarify the Idea.

 

The point was to creat an almost perfect genetic human suitable to become a soldier, engineered specifically for that purpose ...muscle and bone structure etc...

They would all basically be clones of each other...maybe with serial numbers instead of names. Then once they are at a sufficient age, they go through the space marine conversion. Mind you they had been trained in tactics and military doctrine from youth to this point. Then all they have to do is continue there training as Stage 2 after there augmentation. You could produce and entire company at one time. relocate them as scouts for further training and then upon completion of training the units are reconsolidated. The best performers are placed together in the first company and so forth and so on. Once they have established this rotation the "replacements would then come into this chapter into the scout unit....The key is that although they are all basically clones they do not wipe out individuality totally. Once they reach the status of marine they take a name of imperial lineage. But there serial number branding remains. In fact you can have several different "models". Some from a genetic development with physcher heritage.

 

And yes it is very Spartan but think of the possibilities, this could be an awsome idea for a 26th founding, "experimental" chapter. I may roll with this. Of course they will use Ultramarine geneseed stock to add to the geneticaly engineered humans because they are the most stable seed.

 

On top of this the empire does experiment with new weapons and alien weapons don't they...so they could use this chapter to do this because since they have been conditioned since birth there loyalty is totally unquestionable. This may be going to far but think of the possibilities. This could open a whole new door for SM generation. Just my opinion. would definately have to be a codex chapter...or as close to codex as possible.

 

They could be created in a secret facility on mars...or on the moon...maybe in some near by system.....I think I will work up some fluff and see how it goes...I know there will be some serious opposition to this but keep an open mind, I deas, suggestions and yes critisisms are welcome. ;)

[stormbringer_951]

They could be created in a secret facility on mars...or on the moon...maybe in some near by system

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It would be easier to have them just created on Mars. Such a technological enhancement would have to have the aid of the tech-priests of Mars.

[Brother Tyler]

The concept is sound, although it is at odds with the Imperium's superstitious nature when it comes to technology and medicine.

 

It could be done, but the implantation process would still require male youths going through adolescence. The result of the process you describe would likely be a larger crop of suitable candidates, with a significantly higher success rate. The reduction in time it would take to create a new Chapter is debatable and would largely rely both on the ability to create new Space Marines as well as properly equip and train the Chapter. Granted, much training could be conducted with aspirants/neophytes.

 

As far as a Chapter continuing the process after reaching full strength goes, it would probably necessitate a new serf class within the Chapter - servants whose sole duty is to nurture the children. The Space Marines' role would be to supervise training and indoctrination, with the serfs/humans taking care of the basic needs. The Chaplains and Apothecaries would be heavily involved in the upbringing process, but their methods would be as harsh and unforgiving as possible - the whole point is to make the youths aspire to become Space Marines and to have them be mentally prepared for the rigors of war, not to coddle them.

 

Think of the movie Soldier. ;)

 

Perhaps this was a process used with one or more of the Cursed Founding Chapters. ;)

[dragonking]

Well The new class to raise them, really would not be new. There instructions and training would come from librarians, and chaplins and could use servitors as care takers. Yes the movie soldier is what I am thinking to...But not quite as much individuality removed from them....Part of there training would involve creative thinking as it related to warfare. The experimental chapter could be ready quicker then most others and as the procedure is refined it could be quickened in time....centuries mind you but this could be an experiment to help increase the strength of the force. Those that are deemed flawed through training etc are turned into servitors. This could make the chapter primarily independant. After conversion they are selected based on ability and performance as to what field they will specialize in...example they all go through preliminary flight training, power armor training, mechanical training etc...all at the basic level. Those showing an adeptness for a certain skill are then broken off after completion of there marine training to go to there specialized field. Land speeder pilots, armor drivers, heavy weapons...etc...

 

Not sure what they would be called though. Maybe Sons of Mars, or Children of Mars....still working on that to. Of course there original cadre would be the Ultramarines. I think it works best if I do it in the most recent founding, and attempt to correct mistakes made durring the 13th and 21st founding. Plus it lends more to the storie line. This way I am not rewriteing established GW fluff or story line.

 

Plus being raised for warfare it would make them more adaptible towards faceing a variety of enemies and tactics. Please some of the senior members of this board give me feedback as to if this is a feesible idea to do....

 

I have more then enough figures to start this...so need to think of name color scheme and symbol. Since Mars would most likely be the best place to start them, and it is also the Name of a god of war, I think it is fitting. Of course there creation and background would be a closely gaurded secret in the Imperium. I may go with one of the names I have given already or something similiar. Colors...Maybe Blood red and orange with white or black accents...not sure yet. Comments and critisism are welcome. ;)

[Krooter]

Why can't we go back to the old fluff, when the Emperors Finest were bio-chemically hardened criminals? ;)

[dragonking]

well that is an interesting spin also...what ever happened with that, they just overwrote it or said ignore the old fluff kind of thing? What do you think of my Idea though?

[dragonking]

Does any of the moderators or senior members of this page have any input on this and its feasibility?

[Ivoracle]

If you want to keep the idea of superior genetics from birth, but find the fluff doesn't support the notion of embrionic manipulation, try this: a breeding program. In some ways, this can be even more dark and gothic than the idea of genetic super-babies, because a breeding program can be very draconian, with "impure" specimens "weeded out", and careful control of the "breeding population". It can also establish interesting aspects of the chapter's behavior, such as occasionally swooping in on some foreign world to "gather" some new genetic specimens for the program.

 

Maybe not quite what you had in mind, but just something that popped into my mind.

[Einsatz]

I like the concept. It has a good sci-fi feel to it.

 

My only concern would be the "cookie cutter syndrome". If you create marines from clones, you end up with carbon copie marines.

 

Experience is what sets the marines apart today. Look at Baal. It is a radioactive waste, yet some of the finest marines are Blood Angels. It is not genetics that made Dante great, it was experience.

 

The movie soldier is a great example. The generic clones lost to the normal soldiers due to experience (and natural ability).

 

Better days.

[Takeda-style]

My whole point with my post above, is that the imperium probably doesn't have that kind of know-how and technology anymore. If they lost the ability to turn full-grown men into marines, I doubt they can engineer zygotes into marines.

[dragonking]

I really am kind of set on the cloneing issue....

The issue of the cookie cutter syndrome was why i thought of them having several "Models". Plus this would be an experiment. Which would cover the issue of lost tech, and why it has taken till the lastest founding for them to develop it enough to put into effect.

They could use the breeding program to help impliment the genetic selection.

This would also be why the process would be so secritive. Plus the stability of the Smurfs seed addition.

 

You are right about experience...that is why they would be broken up for training once they make it to scouts. They would also weed out those that do not take to the training well and turn them into servitors etc....So they can gain experience. Plus this would allow for constant genetic improvement over the centuries once they "perfect" the system. So later replacements could be even better developed....

 

Remember this is a secret experiment. Because there are several models they can mange to keep it "hidden".

Eventually they can get to the point were they vary hair and eye color etc...

 

Need a good name though... Sons of Mars or Children of Mars sounds alright but just does not blow me away yet...any ideas?

[Einsatz]

What about just a number? Marine Chapter 23617 or something. has a secretive feel to it.

 

I am being serious. I'm not pulling your chain. If they are an experiment, wouldn't they get a name after the experiment was successful?

[Dr. Clock]

Sorry to rain on the parade, but isn't this cloning idea getting a bit too close to, say, Corax's last ditch attempt at rebuilding the Raven Guard? It seems to me that every time someone has messed with the genetics of marines the result has been none too pleasant. The technology, as it exists, is simply too volatile for this sort of dabbling. That said, I would be all for it provided you incorporated something to indicate that, while these marines are quickly produced and perhaps superior to their peers, there is something about them that is not quite right. (cue menacing music) I think you have the basis for something great here, I would simply caution you that if you want some significant bonus, you should be prepared to temper it with some sacrifice.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[jimmythemoose]

I believe a similar idea was used for the "afrael strain" guard, regiments of imperial guard created entirely from clones of great imperial heroes (yarrick, macharius, etc.). I don't remember the details but I remember it was a resounding failure, so cloned marines probably wouldn't work.

[Quin 242]

Before the horus heresy, the technique was still so advanced that they could turn anyone into a space marine easily.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is incorrect.

There had to still be a tissue compatibility, sort of like blood typing and Organ rejection protocall

The subject had to be started before maturity as some implants were designed to work in conjuction with the natural maturation process and puberty

AND

The subject had to be mentally compatable as well. recruits must also be susceptable to hypnotic suggestion for the sus-an, the catalepsian node, and the occulobe to be developed.

 

The process involved prolonged surgery and vast amounts of pain. The entire skin is removed at one point and a layer of black carapace is implanted under it. A weak mind woud snap.

 

The minimum amount of time to create 1000 sets of Zygotes for implatation was 55 years and that was back when the process was first developed, Prior to the ritualization of all the sciences and when all the scirentists were more science and less religion.

 

I'd guess that it would take longer now as the labs are running well below peak capacity and many specimens would be lost which would slow the process by multiples... each set can be made into two sets so... each loss would cause massive increases in time.

 

All this assumes that there is a viable geneseed stock to start with and that the Lords of Terra have requested a new chapter.

 

all this is from the fluff piece in the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium (red book)

 

There is a fluff piece out there somewhere that says that the imperium forbids cloning... I'll try and find it later. OR one of the brethren might have it available.

 

ODDLY your idea almost exactly echos the history of my Grey Legion...

Used to be called the Sons of Mechanicus.

For a good read along a similar thought: Grey Legion History

 

I'd be willing to share them with you :devil:

[Quin 242]

Why can't we go back to the old fluff, when the Emperors Finest were bio-chemically hardened criminals? :devil:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

This was never the fluff for Marines.

IG and penal battalions yes. SM no.

[Einsatz]

Why can't we go back to the old fluff, when the Emperors Finest were bio-chemically hardened criminals? :devil:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

This was never the fluff for Marines.

IG and penal battalions yes. SM no.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Night Lords come to mind.

 

Back in the old RT days and before, some marines came from "sweeps" in the underhive. Kind of a way to make them 'pay back" soceity. I guess it kept the bad guys from breeding B) .

 

Better days.

[Shadey]

Isnt there still the problem of producing the zygotes which are the basis of all the implants? You would think if they could clone these zygotes they would already be doing so.

 

Before the horus heresy, the technique was still so advanced that they could turn anyone into a space marine easily

I am not sure if this was always the case. I seem to remember in 2nd edition something about Luthor and the other adult members of the Order on Caliban were only partially turned into space marines because of that problem, but in third edition it seems as if they were changed fully. I kinda like that the genetic enginerring back then was advanced enough to do that, gives me hope :devil:.

 

Then all they have to do is continue there training as Stage 2 after there augmentation. You could produce and entire company at one time

 

I like this, it is similar to the pod idea of the republic commandoes, raised and trained together gives them a superior bond for unparralled teamwork on an almost sub concious level.

 

They could be created in a secret facility on mars...or on the moon...maybe in some near by system.....I think I will work up some fluff and see how it goes...I know there will be some serious opposition to this but keep an open mind, I deas, suggestions and yes critisisms are welcome

I like most of your ideas. As to placement, what about in the proxima centuri system (if that is its name) I am talking about the system that is only 4.4 light years from here. It would be interesting to see its 40k version being so close to Terra and all, I imagine it would be something special.

 

For a paint scheme I would suggest a matte dark red, perhaps with a secondary colour maybe dark brown camo splotches, but of course that is all down to individual preference. I don't know what most people think of camo on marines here but I like it, besides its more for the look itself than camoflage. Fro a name what about The Wargods? though perhaps seems more like something for a Titan legion.

 

My only concern would be the "cookie cutter syndrome". If you create marines from clones, you end up with carbon copie marines

 

I dont know about that, Twins for example are almost genetic clones but they nearly always vary, often greatly in personality and ability.

[Lion in the Stars]

That sounds kinda interesting. I won't play with it myself, but let's mess with it for a while.

 

When the Emperor was still walking around, full adults were changed into Marines (ref: Angels of Death), in both the DA and BA legions.

 

Kayvann Shrike and Lex (whatever his name was, the IFist from the Inquisition War trilogy) were both recruited from underhive gangs, so that process still happens, and Lex was from Necromunda!

 

I don't think that a Marine chapter name would include the word 'god', so there's Warbringers (not, they already exist), Harbingers ... Marines Exultant/Exalted maybe?

 

Besides, most military people have similar personalities (probably has something to do with training and wanting to/being willing to risk your life to protect others). We do have some differences, but ... we all have some very similar reactions.

[Quin 242]

Clones will not look like identical copies of each other. While nice and sci-fi, The reality is that clones are just like any other egg fertilized by sperm. They will grow and look different to each other. There will be obvious similarities but even genetically identical cells would develop some differences as they grew from one cell to the millions required for a human body.

It'd be difficult to determine who committed a crime tho... :devil:

[Lion in the Stars]

Quin: a Clone is an exact copy (identical twins are 'natural' clones). Marine 42 will look just like Marine 117. Their personalities may differ slightly, but that's about it.

[dragonking]

The basis of this idea could have been formulated over a century ago so they could have been stock pileing and prepareing the procedures and facilities waiting for the high lords of terra to give them the authorization to begin. Durring the breeding process to select the genetics they choose to use they made sure that all of the progenerators of the different models were excellent candidates for conversion them selves. There genetic seed id then harvested and cloned to make a stockpile for creation and generation. The cookie cutter syndrome is why there are several models this allows them to monitor the variences that may develope amongst the clones....and yes i like giveing them serial numbers instead of names, they only earn names when they make it to the rank of vetran or sgt but are within the chapter still often refered to by there ID code.