+ IA: Imperial Castellans +

[Commissar Molotov]

Elitism/Humility:

Now, seeing as I have the support of SCC and Ferrata seems to be coming round, I'll attempt to reconcile your points. Yes, there are likely some chapters that will distrust the Castellans for their close links with the Ecclesiarchy (note, they will certainly not distrust the Castellans for venerating the Emperor as a God). I think the Castellans would bear it as a necessary price for protecting the pilgrims, which is their 'sacred mission'. It is, in effect, their 'cross to bear'.

 

They are humble, because they believe that they are humanity's servants. That would be far better than them distrusting and hating other chapters. Rather other chapters distrust them. It saddens them, but even if every other chapter in the galaxy was to hate them, they will protect the pilgrimage route to the death.

[my_name_is_tudor]

I do think they can be 'elitist' too, but I think the most important part is that they be humble to the pilgrims - without that they are pretty much a standard chapter in their outlook. As long as we are all decided on the humility towards pilgrims aspect.

[ironloki]

Perhaps we would trim the Elitist bit down if its giving some people a headache. Have the Humble theme as the major one with a slight elitist taint? as in 90/10 ratio. That way people can still add the elitist parts in if they want to without it distracting from the main theme :D

[my_name_is_tudor]

Maybe slip a mention into the fluff of a captain or someone getting peeved at some other marine chapter/chapter master/whatever for what he perceived as lowly behaviour?

[Commissar Molotov]

But why do they need the elitist taint? What at all does it actually add to the chapter's theme or character? I would argue very little, and I've not heard any arguments that can really support it. Perhaps they've had a disagreement with another chapter over some issue - that should not be confused with elitism.

[my_name_is_tudor]

It stops the whole thing being too black and white. The castellans are different because they are humble, full stop. It reveals a sort of.. flaw to the Chapter. And flaws are often what makes a chapter (or character or whatever) interesting. Some sort of failing, or something they are not quite on top of.

[Commissar Molotov]

I'm quite aware that flaws can often end up defining character, I spend a lot of time here in the liber advising people to do the same. :D

 

But there's simply no point just adding a flaw for the sake of it if it doesn't contribute to the theme at all. Rather than adding character, it confuses what character there is.

 

I would argue that the Castellans are different to most run-of-the-mill chapters for a couple of reasons.

• - They are restricted one area of space, an area they've not strayed from for millenia.
  
• - Their close links to the Ecclesiarchy help define the character, and draw a lot of criticism from those in the Imperium who remember Goge Vandire
  
• The twin homeworlds, and the way-keeps
  
• The almost exclusive focus on space-borne operation and boarding actions.
  
• The pilgrimage that the scouts undertake.
  

That's just a start. We can give them a real theme and a vibrant character without going "Yeah, they hate other chapters, including the Ultramarines and all those chapters that fought in the heresy, because they don't think the Emperor's a god, and because they think chapters should stay in one area of space."

 

I know that the urge when a chapter is being created is to make them the super-uber-chapter that can do everything, but I was under the impression we were making an ordinary chapter. They can have disagreements with other chapters without that making them elitist. I really think we need to move away from this idea, but it doesn't contribute much to the Castellans.

[my_name_is_tudor]

No one ever said anything about hating other chapters.

 

But if the elitist issue is causing upset I think it should just be dropped, as you say its not one of the defining features really.

 

PS. Glad to see my scout pilgrimage idea got into the final list :D, but lets get Acolyte chaplains squads onto there too people!

[ironloki]

I think that a slight hint of something else would be good. Where it be Elitism or arrogance.

 

Yes at the moment they do have a strong sense comming through - close ties with Ecclesiarchy etc . This gives the theme of dedicated marines who are humbled at the service of protecting the "Holy Land". But thats a bit two-dimensional for me.

 

Having that slight sense of arrogance would add an edge. Perhaps not to the overall theme but subtle comments would make some great character stories. Plus would it really defract from the main theme that strongly as to dilute it?

 

They protect a holy place almost single handedly and are spread out far and wide in small pockets. This would either merit them with being terribly humble (Greatfull for the opertunity to defend such a revered place) or perhaps create a sense of arrogance. They are proud at what they do and their ability to do so.

 

Perhaps we should move away from Ferrata's original spelling mistake (He's always complicates things :P ). How about a sense of pride perhaps leading to a little arrogance rather than full blown elitism

 

Not to say they believe they are Super dooper marines and better than everyone else but they think higher of themselves for their duty?

 

Or does that still chaff people :D (Perhaps some more lube ;) )

[Commissar Molotov]

Heh, the way you say "add an edge" it makes it sound like it's some sort of style programme. "We're marines... and we're cool!"

 

Now, I think that Pride could definately be a factor. They take pride in what they do. Arrogance, possibly, amongst some of the chapter. But elitism doesn't really contribute.

 

I would say what gives them an edge is likely their fury at those that attack the defenseless pilgrims - Dark Eldar and the like. They're trespassing on holy ground, and the Castellans exact furious vengeance. That's a better duality. Humility and peace towards the pilgrims, but ferocious anger against those that attack their charges.

[ironloki]

Heh, the way you say "add an edge" it makes it sound like it's some sort of style programme. "We're marines... and we're cool!"

Who says they are not cool :P ;)

 

Now, I think that Pride could definately be a factor. They take pride in what they do. Arrogance, possibly, amongst some of the chapter. But elitism doesn't really contribute.

 

Yeah pride seems better as it flows well. I think the main problem was the wording of Elitism. The elitism was directed at their fellow marines whereas there focus should be hating those who attack them and the holy place (Something which their fellow chapters would not do) So I can see how that was diffracting from the original intention ;)

 

I would say what gives them an edge is likely their fury at those that attack the defenseless pilgrims - Dark Eldar and the like. They're trespassing on holy ground, and the Castellans exact furious vengeance. That's a better duality. Humility and peace towards the pilgrims, but ferocious anger against those that attack their charges.

 

Sounding better :D Confers that image as Sacred defenders of the Holy place - Which links back to the original chapter name - keepers/defenders ;) Looks like we may have found a middle ground unless there is any major opposition?

[Cpt_Tiberius]

Pride could be there main fault. They feel they are superior to the xenos & chaos scum, which makes them toss restraint to the wind sometimes (Retreat now?! In our moment of triumph??!!).

 

This could easily be represented with the disadvantage that lets the opponent choose to play an additional round.

[SCC]

Which of the following is true?

 

A fault, or flaw, can define a character

 

A fault, or flaw, must define a character

 

:D

 

In short, the Imperial Castellans don't need to have a flaw to have character. I think the points Molotv outlined previously:

- They are restricted one area of space, an area they've not strayed from for millenia.

- Their close links to the Ecclesiarchy help define the character, and draw a lot of criticism from those in the Imperium who remember Goge Vandire

The twin homeworlds, and the way-keeps

The almost exclusive focus on space-borne operation and boarding actions.

The pilgrimage that the scouts undertake.

more than compensate for any perceived blandness or lack of character created by the lack of a 'flaw'.

 

So again, I can't see the need for elitism/excessive pride etc. either, besides, having a Chapter that simply does it's job and doesn't harbour a dirty secret, fatal flaw or other skeletons in the closet is far more unique than your ubiquitous 'Chapter with character defining flaw' these days. And, as Molotov pointed out before, not every Chapter needs to be flawed, in fact surely the majority of Chapters should be just stable, reliable, dependable Angels of Death, otherwise teh Adeptus Astartes would have crumbled away years ago...

 

The ideas you guys have come up with are cool enough to stand on their own two feet without needing a flaw, that's no mean feat and I think it's something not only to be proud of but to make the most of by not diluting them with flaws, problems and failures.

 

Lastly I'd point out that you don't need to use each and every idea that folks come up with, you can always save some for a second Liber IA or even for use in your own DIY armies :P

[my_name_is_tudor]

Pride is something I'm all for, its a better way of looking at it than 'elitism'.

 

Right, so with our current list of ideas, where do we go from here?

[ironloki]

Which of the following is true?

 

A fault, or flaw, can define a character

 

A fault, or flaw, must define a character

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

B :blink:

 

Yeah im comming round to the idea that some pride would be good but not in the sense that they lose their heads over it and do a black templars or blood angels and risk everything.

 

We dont want them fighting losing battles for the sake of pride - they dont come over that way to me. Taking pride in their job/task would seem to fit with defending the holy land.

 

Im with tudor..whats next?

 

Isn't it Origins then homeworld

[Ferrata]

Ok, I'm here for the long run again. I'm feeling better, the house is tidy and my 'rents are on the way back so food is no longer an issue :blink:

 

I think we should go for the following ideas -

 

Pious - Follow Ecclesiarchy Dogma

 

Humble - Spend a lot of time around the pilgrims

 

Two Homeworlds at either end of the pilgrims route

 

Way-Forts along the way (number undecided)

 

Scouts start their journey at the close Way-fort the the pilgrim's end. Move along the way-forts away from the end. Spending a year at each gaining their organs as they go along. After completeing their year on the 2nd homeoworld, they get on one of the Pilgrim ships. Finally getting their black carapace on the 1st homeworld.

 

Fight a lot on ships in boarding actions, but when forced to fight on ground they favour heavy fire power and small, specialised (thats a better word) squads. Terminators and tanks.

 

Large number of Chaplains (possibly using the Purity above All trait)

 

Prideful - Honoured that they were given the chance to defend the most pious humans in the galaxy, and seeing the Emperor as a god, the have became prideful in their task. They are defenders of the faith, that is their reason for life. Over the more born to fight of other chapters.

 

I think thats about it. Maybe they lack fast attack, maybe not.

if a majority of people are happy with these (maybe a bit of tweeking) then we can move onto things like gene-seed and founding etc.

 

Ferrata

[Daeothar]

Allright; so far so good.

 

But before the old Elitist argument flared up I wrote a massive post, elaborating on my view of the way-forts. Any feedback on that?

[Cpt_Tiberius]

Sounds good to me.

 

I had an idea that maybe they used mainly biker marines for fast attack to kind of reinforce the knightly theme, but it's just an option.

[Ferrata]

But before the old Elitist argument flared up I wrote a massive post, elaborating on my view of the way-forts. Any feedback on that?

Just thought I repost it for people -

 

Another point I'd like to bring up is that when I first introduced the fortresses along the route I envisaged them not to be 5 or 8 or 10 but more along the line of 30 or 40 or so!

 

Now, before I get jumped over this, let me explain. Not all of those fortresses need to be manned at all times. Mostly, the pilgrimage route are safe(ish). It's only when there a threat somewhere along the route, the Castellans take to manning some of the fortresses nearby, until the threat is neutralised. These fortresses would not be of Fortress Monestary size mind you. More like a large outpost if you will but heavily fortified (and still massive, as most buildings in the Imperial Gothic style tend to be) and maybe all identical, following some STC design. They would have been funded by the pilgrims themselves, through donations to the Cardinal World, which allowed the Echlessiarchy to both protect their interests and appease a rather scarce asset to their organisation; a chapter of Spacemarines. The fortresses were built in more tumultuous times but the Castellans took to them gladly. not that they feel they were bought by the Echlessiarchy (although they might know otherwise) but more like rewarded by being granted use of the chain of fortresses.

 

I once tried to sell this very idea to another frater trying to make his chapter distinctive. he didn't pick up on the idea but I think it's cool nonetheless:

 

Imagine a bleak, craggy and mountainous area, dark clouds fly past in the whipping wind, covering the dark sky. Amids the sharp, jagged rocks, high walls rise up to the sky, an enormous black gate forbiddingly shut. No light emits from the scarce, small windows and it appears to be abandonned. Still, there's a menacing presence, as if it is asleep, ready to awaken at any moment.

 

A thunderhawk gunship suddenly breaks through the cloud cover and settles down on bright pillars of white flame. The ramp lowers and light shines from the inside of the gunship onto the basalt clearing in front of the gates. Several powerarmoured shapes walk down the ramp as it begins to rain, their dark blue cloaks whipping in the storm.

 

The Thunderhawk blasts off again in the downpour as the half dozen marines  move towards the massive, twenty meters high gate. Rain spatters off their armour and soaks their cloaks as one of them moves to the side and does something arcane with the small control panel hidden in the black rockcrete of the wall besides the gate.

 

Accompanied by the sounds of ancient gears and cogs twisting and turning for the first time in centuries, it slowly opens, revealing a cavernous, vaulted hallway, disappearing in the oppressive darkness. Slowly, lights begin to flicker into life, starting at the gate, illuminating the hallway from front to back, the stark, bright light now easily eclipsing that of the Thunderhawk, dwarfed in front of the fortress, earlier.

 

As arcane machinery is powering up, lights turn on and the fortress' machine spirit starts running diagnostic checks while a techmarine administers the correct rituals. The other marines fan out through the complex, preparing it for the arrival of their brethren. This fortress will be fully manned and operational in several hours, allowing its complement of Castellans to deal out the Divine Emperor's justice to the enemies of the Imperium as they have done on more occassions than they count...

 

This still allows them to be tied in with their name; they have a sh*tload of fortresses, but at the same time, they're mobile and fleetbased, so they can perform their task of safeguarding the pilgrims better. it's sometimes just more preferable to have a stronghold planetside when you're in for a localised campaign (i.e. a Dark Elda pirate fleet has set up shop somewhere nearby, raiding the pilgrim convoys for slaves).

 

Regular escort duties (if any!) are performed by the Imperial Navy (pilgrims are not THAT important to the greater Imperium after all) and only when a threat is located and/or lured in a trap, will the Castellans strike. First by barraging the enemy into oblivion and then by smashing in, in person to deliver the killing blow.

 

Explosive decompression would not be an issue as has been stated but also because those ships are generally FRICKIN' HUGE! Like I said before; any ship that's 30km long, or even 10, what the heck, will have corridors kilometers long, and hundreds of meters wide (think how Imperial thinking makes them love high vaulted ceilings, gothic details etc). Think of these things as giant cathedrals in space, armorclad and well, with skin that is meters thick and will withstand broadsides from other capital ships!

 

I don't think a couple of Predators or Vindicators would do any significant damage to these behemoths. Besides, haven't you heard of airtight bulkheads/doors? Read the 'Fiery Entry' story on my website to see how marines (might) enter a capital ship, using decompression as a weapon (even though this is sort of a covert insertion; their m.o. is quite different really).

 

Ferrata

Edited August 13, 2005 by Ferrata

[jimmythemoose]

It was a good post Daethor, I like your vision of the fortresses.

 

Maybe each one could only be manned by a couple of squads of marines, supported by remote/servitor controlled guns and maybe regiments of local PDF.

[Archangelus]

I second that! That's what way-keeps should look like!

 

 

Now, my suggestions:

 

About arrogance/excessive pride and protecting the pilgrims there is no clash, really.

 

"It is an honour to provide shelter and protection, but it is all that more sweet because we show the world how it is done right. And we have the gratitude of the people we protect!"

 

After all Castellan must be proud to say: "No intruder will step in my Castle, while I still draw breath!"

 

On the way of operating, they want to protect the pilgrim ships not loot the 'pirates'. destroying the enemy ships from a distance is the way to go. If necessary they board the vessel and do so ruthlessly and efficiently.

 

About boarding actions they can have some signature heavy & special weapons:

Flamers for cleansing corridors,

Meltas & Multi-meltas for cutting Bulk-heads and armoured doors

Missile Launchers for frags and kraks (shooting from a distance before closing in)

 

On the matter of scouts:

Having them as pilgrims sounds good but in terms of their armour and bare heads involved in boarding actions this does not sound good to me.

 

I have this suggestion, please bear with me for a moment. In a DIY chapter I am working currently on, I have no scouts for two reasons("Have pride in your colours" trait) and a phobia of disease and contamination, which excludes any models without a sealed armour and a helmet. This could be applied in the Castellan's case as precautions against the dangers of the hard-vacuum.

 

Now, in order to fit new recruits into the story, I borrowed the idea from BT mixed squads, where the neophytes are trained with their older brothers in the heat of battle. Of course in this case you have only power-armoured Space Marines in the squads, but 1 or 2 of them have a distinctive mark as Neophytes (Grey shoulderpad trim for my Chapter, for example).

 

This way the Castellans can basically have 2 'levels' of scouts: Those protecting the pilgrims going along the pilgrimage (1st stage) and those who returned and were given their power armour as a 'reward' (2nd stage) but are not entirely ready yet. They could get assigned to the Squad's Veteran Seargent/Accolyte-Chaplain, as squires were to knights in the Middle Ages.

 

As far as traits are concerned:

I think that Trust your battle brothers fits better with the defensive/offensive theme, than "Purity above all". "Shoot them from a distance until they come to us and then beat them to death with our superior skills" (read 'elite marines' or 'fortification defenders')

 

"We stand alone" could go well with the arrogance/pride/"if you want something done right, do it yourself, as we have done so for the past 4,000 years" side

"Put your faith in suspicion" ties in with the Ecclesiarchy part.

Or if you go for two advantages, there is only "Eye to Eye" that fits the theme as running with bikes inside a spaceship doesn't sound good to me...

 

 

Sorry for the long post!

 

I hope this helped a bit.

 

Regards,

 

Archangelus

[Ferrata]

Sorry for the long post!

Dont be. If they have decent points in them, long posts are good :tu: If their like my long posts, full of insults, non-funny jokes (so, statements really), rambles and stuff people dont want to read, not so good :blink:

 

About arrogance/excessive pride and protecting the pilgrims there is no clash, really.

 

"It is an honour to provide shelter and protection, but it is all that more sweet because we show the world how it is done right. And we have the gratitude of the people we protect!"

 

After all Castellan must be proud to say: "No intruder will step in my Castle, while I still draw breath!"

 

I think you've made some good points. I think our main issue is language. What someones else could see prideful, others could see as arrogance. This is good if its in the 40k world confusion, some people think their prideful, others arrogant. But we all need to be working on the same wave-length (or lack of wave-length for loki -_- ). I think we're looking at the kind of pride of their duty, but not thinking they're better then everyone else.

 

On the way of operating, they want to protect the pilgrim ships not loot the 'pirates'. destroying the enemy ships from a distance is the way to go. If necessary they board the vessel and do so ruthlessly and efficiently.

Well, destroying ships from afar is always a good way to defend. But sometimes you need to get in a cripple them totally. If they limp off back from where they came, then they come back later.

 

About boarding actions they can have some signature heavy & special weapons:

Flamers for cleansing corridors,

Meltas & Multi-meltas for cutting Bulk-heads and armoured doors

Missile Launchers for frags and kraks (shooting from a distance before closing in)

 

I like the system they have in the IG codex, where each GW army has its favourite Heavy and Special weapon. They should do that for marines ^_^ I think this ties in with my idea of small specialised squads. One with meltas to cut trough armour, while other have a more defensive, hold long corrider roles.

 

We should put the details of the scout's initation on the back burner and bring it out when we are onto that bit. We have the basic idea that they are stationed on all/some of the way-forts, have to make the journey. But I think we can leave their battle field role and the details of the journey for later.

 

I think that Trust your battle brothers fits better with the defensive/offensive theme, than "Purity above all". "Shoot them from a distance until they come to us and then beat them to death with our superior skills" (read 'elite marines' or 'fortification defenders')

Same as above about discussing sections later. But while you mention it. The purity above all trait was not meant to fit the defenders role, more to represent mini-chaplains on the battle field. (To be honest, I stole the idea of ironloki :blush: He suggested using the trait to represent techmarines in a bionic army a while ago....sorry ;) )

 

I had an idea that maybe they used mainly biker marines for fast attack to kind of reinforce the knightly theme, but it's just an option.

 

Bikes do fit a knightly theme, but they seem to be to far away from the current idea of the combat doctrine.

 

After reading the majority of daeothar's idea on way-forts (I read it all but the imagry bit) I kinda like the majority of it. Maybe have 5-8 main forts, then loads of little ones between them. Each of the little ones belong to one of the main forts. They (smaller forts) can be manned by serfs and pdf forces, and are under command of the main fort. The marines can use the forts if the planet is attacked. As for guard duty, maybe have the path they defend is needed to be crossed to get to such as place, so its under quite a few attacks.

 

Ferrata, not sorry about the long post :P

Edited August 13, 2005 by Ferrata

[Cpt_Tiberius]

Like I said, the bikes idea was just something I threw out there. so no big deal.

 

I have to disagree with Archangelus on the scouts. I just don't like the idea of scouts in power armor (ignoring the fact that they couldn't use it anyway becuase they do not have the black carapace.) I think just modeling them with helmets or air masks would be sufficient to represent space going specialization. or you could use normal scouts to represent scouts stationed at a way-keep.

[my_name_is_tudor]

Well, I'm not sure why the scouts would have to ve space-proof anyway. I doubt the pilgrims will have any space gear, so why would scouts making the same pilgrimage need it?

[Ferrata]

Well, I'm not sure why the scouts would have to ve space-proof anyway. I doubt the pilgrims will have any space gear, so why would scouts making the same pilgrimage need it?

 

I do believe this was for when the scouts where used in boarding actions, but it seems that now they only fight as scouts when either the way-forts are attacked, or the ships they are on are attacked. The only reason enclosed armour is needed for boarding is when the hull is breached at the start or when the pressure drops suddenly

 

Ferrata