+ IA: Imperial Castellans +

[Brother-Librarian Akritedes]

Probably mostly Feral and Modern. They might have a Way-Keep on some Hive World, but I would think that they would prefer to avoid all the commotion and potential sabotage opportunities.

 

Point with the elitism issue. Like I said, it may not be something we want. It sounds good, but presents a host of problems (We're too good to guard you heathens, so we'll go off and beat on someone. Have fun with the pirates!). :tu:

[my_name_is_tudor]

I like the idea of them recruiting from the children of pilgrims, as if the pilgrims beleive their childern are being accepted into a sort of warrior priesthood, they would consider it an honour to have their child accepted - no wait, a blessing.

 

About the scout company, maybe.. hmm. Perhaps new recruits (scouts) have to make the pilgrimage themselves, and so do not spend their time as scouts actually in the field, but rather making the pilgrimage on their own, without the protection of the chapter, and having to make their way for themselves (this would teach them to respect the piglrims, as to get aboard pilgrim vessels they would have to work alongside the pilgrims) when they arrive at the cardinal world they are accepted into one of the other 9 companies

 

if this were true though, the recruiting of the children of pilgrims would have to happen at the begining of the pilgrimage route.

[SGT. Smilez]

What about having the scouts just man the "way-keeps" and train on the planet until they earn the right to wear power armor. Have them complete some rigorous test, like kill some sort of tough dragon creature to be accepted as a full battle brother.

[Brother-Librarian Akritedes]

An interesting thought, but wouldn't the Chapter hate the lack of control? It would be far too easy for someone to kill a Neophyte, and harvest his organs for experiments. It's a good premise, but they won't get much combat experience from it. It WOULD make a good last stage though. Couple of decades fighting, then they drop them at one end of the route and have them go to the other end, on their own, no support, nothing. That might work... :tu:

[Brother Sergeant Alasseo]

Thing is, if the neophytes have to make the pilgrimage themselves with no support, wouldn't that leave the convoy they are travelling with without its escort?

 

Maybe the scouts make one journey in charge of the pilgrim ships (ie, on board, learning to respect the pilgrims, plus organise a militia to help fight off enemy boarders, should the need arise). Admittedly, this wouldn't give them that much combat experience (one would hope), but given the number of pilgrims cooped up in each ship, it's probably inevitable that there would be some problems if there weren't some sort of guard to break up fights, ensure that there aren't any riots over food, etc.

If the neophytes had to spend a decade or two doing that, then they would probably end up feeling nice and humble (not to mention used to shipboard combat), ready to develop the elitist attitude when they become full-fledged battle brothers.

[Brother-Librarian Akritedes]

And, if we don't want them to be elitist, we have a way to make them sufficiently humble...

 

I'm starting to like that notion. Maybe not as their only duty, but it could make up a large portion of their job, and culminate in them becoming pilgrims themselves for a single journey. They would do it on their own, without the Chapter supporting them. Of course, the normal convoy guards and such would stay, but wouldn't interfere with the Neophytes pilgrimage.

[Astartes Consul]

As for Ironlokis point about the shiping lane, mebey it could be the main rout to cadia, thus being raided alot.

 

Cheers

[Commissar Molotov]

Might perhaps be better for whole squads of scouts to work from one end to the other. Much like the Alpha Legion, who trained neophytes as squads. If one failed, they all failed. This would form strong bonds of brotherhood as the scouts rely upon eachother to survive. They would age through the chapter together and stay together for their whole life as a space marine.

[Brother-Librarian Akritedes]

That makes good sense, I suppose. Me likey. :)

[Brother Sergeant Alasseo]

Actually, another thought occurred: if the neophytes are going to do serious training time on pilgrim vessels, keeping order and acting as last-ditch defence and whatnot, then we have a ready-made fluff reason for people to keep the cool scout models with shotguns...

 

A quick recap of what we seem to have come up with so far:

-Two homeworlds, one at either end of the chapter's "territory"

-Primarily fleet based, however, guarding a vital route (both pilgrimage and supply) from the Segmentum Solar through to Dimmamar

-Way-Keeps along the route provide some of the recruiting base, the rest of the recruits come from the children of the pilgrims they guard.

-Extremely pious, with either a humble or elitist slant ::cuss:

-Possible "close ties" with Ecclesiarchy?

-Believe in irresistible force: go all-out to kill an enemy once, and you won't have to do it again

-Prefer boarding actions, so lots of termies and close-range firepower, plus a predilection for missile launchers with frag (prevalent devastators?)

-Probably have a reserve of big guns for ground fights (reminiscent of ships' cannon?)

-Neophytes trained as squads, keep order on board pilgrim ships

-Pious nature means have faith in suspicion

-Organised into smaller formations than companies (demi-company per patrol group/ship?)

-"Reserve" duty garrisoning the Way-Keeps rotated between demi-companies

-Potential for acolyte chaplains?

-Sort of stubborn; proxied using Purity above all and mini-chaplains rather than apothecaries: faith is such that they will ignore extreme pain to fight on

-Either IF or UM geneseed (I'm leaning towards IF, given their attitude)

 

I have some doubts about some of these, but in general I like the way they are going.

 

Another sudden thought striking: because of the amount of ship-time these guys are getting, it's likely that they're going to be receiving almost constant mucranoid therapy, which in turn means they are going to be very sweaty. Another reason to keep helmets on (aside from explosive decompression): I doubt sweaty marines are very pleasant company...

[Ferrata]

Sorry for my like of posting in the last day or two. I've been a bit under the weather and everyone's gone and left me, So I've got to look after myself ^_^

 

The quick re-cap posted by Brother Sergeant Alasseo seems to be most of what we've discussed. Unless anyone has any new bright idea's, are we wanting to move on? Next we need to maybe remove a couple of things on that list. Decide the final ideas of the chapter (are we going humble or elitest) and then move onto the basic facts of founding etc

 

Ferrata

[my_name_is_tudor]

I know this may sound daft, but I think they could be both elitist and humble - just to different people.

 

They spend a lot of time amongst the pilgrims, they have utmost respect for the hardships these untrained individuals put themselves through in the name of their god (I reckon they should consider him a god just like the pilgrims), and are very humble to them. They may even consider themselves the servants of the pilgrims.. I.E. it is their duty to protect them, its not a luxury they give the pilgrims, its the pilgrims' rights.

 

But, when they compare themselves they could see the other chapters' arrogance and, apparent barbaric-ness (?), near-heresy and tendency to run around fighting other peoples battles as below them. They may think they are one of (if not the) only correctly behaving chapter out there, and thus are elitist in that aspect.

[Daeothar]

Exactly what I was imagining them to be Tudor! Well said indeed... ;)

 

Maybe others will now understand the elitist/arrogance issue a bit better. ^_^

[Commissar Molotov]

Eh, I'm giving up the argument. I've made my point several times about how the Castellans shouldn't need to be elitist. The whole elitism issue sparked only because Ferrata typed the wrong word. Beforehand it hadn't come into things. They can believe they're doing things the right way without having to be elitist. I think you're diluting the theme running through the chapter by doing so.

 

Still, you guys seem to have a different view of the Castellans from me.

[ironloki]

Eh, I'm giving up the argument. I've made my point several times about how the Castellans shouldn't need to be elitist. The whole elitism issue sparked only because Ferrata typed the wrong word. Beforehand it hadn't come into things. They can believe they're doing things the right way without having to be elitist. I think you're diluting the theme running through the chapter by doing so.

 

Still, you guys seem to have a different view of the Castellans from me.

Its just one of those fences which a project such as this are littered with ;) we are just going to have to stumble across it - dragging those unwilling people along, crippled if need be :)

 

Why do you think it would dilute the theme? I run a similar double sworded them in my own DIY (Great love for their own people and families but despise everyone else) sounds a bit similar to this dual theme of humble/elitist but those two words clash a bit so perhaps a better word could be chosen?

 

 

The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

 

Perceieved superiority would be depending the "holy land"

 

Marked by meekness or modesty in behavior, attitude, or spirit; not arrogant or prideful.

 

Which kinda goes against the Elitist idea. I believe what tudor suggested is the better way but I think its the words and not theme thats causing problems. I would be tempted to drop the humble part - as in not being humble to the Pilgrims but on par.

 

The pilgrims are perhaps the only ones who openly state how importance the precense of the Marines is and therefore having great respect for them.

 

But perhaps moving onto the other sections would be good such as origins etc would be a good move :P

 

Just some half sleepy ideas *Stumbles to bed....Ahh damn Mod chains are preventing me :D ...oh well back to hall moniter duties*

[Commissar Molotov]

Eh, I'm giving up the argument. I've made my point several times about how the Castellans shouldn't need to be elitist. The whole elitism issue sparked only because Ferrata typed the wrong word. Beforehand it hadn't come into things. They can believe they're doing things the right way without having to be elitist. I think you're diluting the theme running through the chapter by doing so.

 

Still, you guys seem to have a different view of the Castellans from me.

 

Its just one of those fences which a project such as this are littered with :P we are just going to have to stumble across it - dragging those unwilling people along, crippled if need be :)

 

Why do you think it would dilute the theme? I run a similar double sworded them in my own DIY (Great love for their own people and families but despise everyone else) sounds a bit similar to this dual theme of humble/elitist but those two words clash a bit so perhaps a better word could be chosen?

 

 

I just really don't think the Castellans need to be elitist, I think it spoils their character... they're warrior monks, and far monkish than most chapters... they defend those pilgrims... they don't need to be all "OMG :cuss WE R LIEK SO KL!!!!one!!!!!!!" One of the central tenets of nearly all monkish orders is humility. Before the Emperor, they are nothing.

 

It seems we've come up with a chapter that believes Marines should be assigned to specific areas... their 'patch'. Because they have their patch, they're elitist. :D

 

If it's to do with their religious beliefs, they have to be careful just how far they go down the Ecclesiarchal way of thinking... because after all, Space Marines are mutants. While they are the Emperor's sons, they have gone a long way from the bulk of humanity. Plus the Imperial Fists gene-seed is mutated in itself; having lost the Sus-An and the Betcher's

 

Now, assuming that the previous posters regarding religious views meant simply "the Castellans view the Emperor as a God", then I don't have as much as a problem with that... but them having ideological disagreements shouldn't lead to elitism against all chapters, and guard - especially because the Guard believe in the same god they do, and there are chapters who venerate the Emperor as a God. But this chapter would be rather arrogant if they thought, by virtue, that they are better than the first-founding legions.

[Shadey]

The real Knights Templar are rumored to have dabbled in witch craft, pagan worship, and other non church approved activites.

The general consensus these days is that it was all a big frame up. The Templars were very rich and there were people, like the king of France who wanted that wealth.

 

They could be organized by the standard 10 companies, but generally operate as 20 half-sized companies

 

Considering that the most people generally play 1500pt games and 1500pts buys you about 50 marines give or take, you could say most chapters operate like that :D.

 

Perhaps they Feel they are good at their job when compared to other chapters but you would have to watch that it didn't turn to the pilgrims (unless you really want a darker secret )

Beautiful, but I dont think anyone wants to take that direction in this case. Does however bring up the idea of doing a chaos IA if this one turns out to be a success.

 

The Echlessiarchy has tried to bring Space Marine chapters in line before. Most chapters protested adamantly and it came to blows (can't remember the name of the conflict) but perhaps the Castellans didn't and are actually cooperating with the Echlessiarchy? The Imperial Cult would then be the only dogma followed by the Castellans.

 

I like that, it seems as if most people are leaning towards close ties with the Echlessiarcy, that seems as good a reason for the ties than anything which could have in turn led to their position of protecting the pilgims.

 

I am still not convinced with any of the arguments for arrogant elitist marines. Besides, there are already enough of those types of marines. Just because they are pious and they see other marines as near on heretics should not lead to elitism. Pridefull, kinda makes them hypocrites. Modesty is a very valued trait in the Imperium. They see the guarding of these pilgrims as a sacred duty. If they were truely pious should they not feel this duty more as a privledge, or at worst a duty that has to be done. It just strikes me as truely weak character to go from that to "We are the only ones that can do this" or "They are lucky we are here to help them, (cause we are so leet :))"

 

With all the thoughts of the day about modesty, humble servants and all, its clear the Imperium and certainly the Echlessiarchy do not value such self serving traits as arrogance and elitism, would they still maintain close ties with the marines in that case? I should be note, of course those organisations are not free from such traits themselves (though they would have you beleive otherwise), but only on an individual scale, never as part of an organised or widespread policy.

 

And at least on a public level wouldnt the Echlessiarcy want to distance themselves from an organisation with such widespread undesirable traits.

 

Another thing, do they even need such a lack of diversity when it comes to personality? I don't think anyone was under the impression that every marine was either going to be elitist or every marine was going to be humble but does there even need to be a majority? My Name is Tudor touched on this earlier.

 

I personally favor the use of Devastator squads and vehicles in boarding actions, due to the heavy weight of fire they can put down (Devs and HBs), or the sheer surprise factor and cover advantage a tank implies. As long as you don't fire at critical components, or use specialized ammunition to avoid the problem

Hmm, still very dangerous, such a volume of firepower your bound to hit the wrong thing occasionaly. I like the idea of variant types of ammo though, could be represented in game but then your getting into some major rule changes. IIRC however there is some speical nid killer ammo for a HB, or some of the types of ammo available to the death watch I think it was.

 

Now, perhaps an interesting throwback to the "defense and fortification mindset". Maybe in the boarding actions, the First Company spearhead carry massive tower shields, forming a wall of faith and admantine? It would look cool

 

Very cool, if you don't shut up about it I am going to have to make some models of this. :P

 

As for the scouts, I like what Commissar Molotov said, may be interesting to create a fully sealed type of scout armour, no effect in game just somthing to look different and look the part.

 

I just really don't think the Castellans need to be elitist, I think it spoils their character... they're warrior monks, and far monkish than most chapters... they defend those pilgrims... they don't need to be all "OMG :cuss WE R LIEK SO KL!!!!one!!!!!!!" One of the central tenets of nearly all monkish orders is humility. Before the Emperor, they are nothing.

It seems we've come up with a chapter that believes Marines should be assigned to specific areas... their 'patch'. Because they have their patch, they're elitist.

 

If it's to do with their religious beliefs, they have to be careful just how far they go down the Ecclesiarchal way of thinking... because after all, Space Marines are mutants. While they are the Emperor's sons, they have gone a long way from the bulk of humanity. Plus the Imperial Fists gene-seed is mutated in itself; having lost the Sus-An and the Betcher's

 

Now, assuming that the previous posters regarding religious views meant simply "the Castellans view the Emperor as a God", then I don't have as much as a problem with that... but them having ideological disagreements shouldn't lead to elitism against all chapters, and guard - especially because the Guard believe in the same god they do, and there are chapters who venerate the Emperor as a God. But this chapter would be rather arrogant if they thought, by virtue, that they are better than the first-founding legions.

 

I agree entirely.

 

One more thing, what are peoples opinions on CCW for the Castellans, their knightly (though that may only seem so as the primary weapon of the knights time) background and the badge, an interest in swordsmanship is not out of the question. It also fits with the boarding/assault part though brings them more into a balanced light along with their defensive aspect.

 

Swordsmanship could be highly valued, along with a sword relic or two like the sword of secrets for the dark angels.

[SCC]

Some suggestions and comments...

 

Elitism - I'm with Molotov on this one, a good DIY needs a strong theme and the best one for this Chapter would be the whole 'protect the pilgrims' bit, so humility makes more sense than elitisim. I'd suggest that they disapprove of or are dissapointed with the actions/behaviour of other Chapters, seeing them as uncouth/barbaric/unfocussed but that doesn't require them to think they're better than other Chapters, merely that other Chapters themselves could do better if they tried/were more faithful/less prideful etc.

 

Boarding actions - The average Marine with bolter and mono-molecular blade knife, in power armour, is more than a match for any non-Marine/non-'Stealer opponent he'll come across on a ship, he's also not going to worry about decompression, explosive or otherwise. Two simple reasons - one PA will protect him from vacuum, hell, even without a helmet on Marines can survive hard vacuum for a short period. And two - magnetic boots, so getting hurled around as air pressure changes etc. isn't a worry either.

 

In fact, explosive decompression is an excellent way for Marines to clear enemy ships rapidly or at least large parts thereof, I think the first Soul Drinkers novel has a few scenes to that effect.

 

Heavy Weapons, Scouts and Way-Keeps - This is fairly simple to reconcile, each garrison could be made up of say, 20-40 Marines and 10 Scouts, to make up for their lack of numbers they amass firepower to defend their citadels, both hand held and fortification based. This gives you a force which on the ground prefers to use heavy amounts of firepower/vehicles.

 

It also exposes Scouts to battle which would be a prerequisite to promotion to full Brother. If you have 5-8 Citadels this allows the Reserve Companies to defend them, along with 50-80 Scouts, leaving 20 Scouts to be on their Pilgrimmage at any one time. To be sent on Pilgrimmage a Scout (or squad) might be required to serve a year on each Way-keep planet, learning to fight under a variety of conditions (jungle, arctic, desert etc. each planet can easily be a different archetype), they start at the closest Way-keep to the holy planet and work their work away from it, perhaps receiving a new implant when they arrive and another when they leave... When they've served a year on the final Way-keep, furthest from the holy-planet they begin their journey back, as Pilgrims/Protectors and if they survive become full brothers...

 

Imperial Creed - There's no reason the Castellans couldn't follow the Imp Creed closely, other Chapters do, it's really only the early Chapters which are 'required' to see the Emperor as a Man, venerate a Primarch and so forth. Later Chapters can certainly subscribe to the theory that the Emperor is a God, rather than human, after all, they never knew him or the Primarchs as the early Chapters did. So, no real problem with 'close ties' to the Ecclessiarchy and the Imperial Creed there. Recruitment is also simple, have the Way-keeps stationed on planets that are part of the pilgrimmage route (so St. Whoever stopped/fought/preached/converted there on the way to the Holy planet) but not are not Ecclesiarchy worlds. Given the journey is for many decades long it makes sense that they stop on these planets and pray/work for passage to the next sector/venerate the Saint's deeds etc. before moving on. This gives them the chance to produce offspring to be recruited by the Castellans without stepping on anyone's toes...

[Daeothar]

Another point I'd like to bring up is that when I first introduced the fortresses along the route I envisaged them not to be 5 or 8 or 10 but more along the line of 30 or 40 or so!

 

Now, before I get jumped over this, let me explain. Not all of those fortresses need to be manned at all times. Mostly, the pilgrimage route are safe(ish). It's only when there a threat somewhere along the route, the Castellans take to manning some of the fortresses nearby, until the threat is neutralised. These fortresses would not be of Fortress Monestary size mind you. More like a large outpost if you will but heavily fortified (and still massive, as most buildings in the Imperial Gothic style tend to be) and maybe all identical, following some STC design. They would have been funded by the pilgrims themselves, through donations to the Cardinal World, which allowed the Echlessiarchy to both protect their interests and appease a rather scarce asset to their organisation; a chapter of Spacemarines. The fortresses were built in more tumultuous times but the Castellans took to them gladly. not that they feel they were bought by the Echlessiarchy (although they might know otherwise) but more like rewarded by being granted use of the chain of fortresses.

 

I once tried to sell this very idea to another frater trying to make his chapter distinctive. he didn't pick up on the idea but I think it's cool nonetheless:

Imagine a bleak, craggy and mountainous area, dark clouds fly past in the whipping wind, covering the dark sky. Amids the sharp, jagged rocks, high walls rise up to the sky, an enormous black gate forbiddingly shut. No light emits from the scarce, small windows and it appears to be abandonned. Still, there's a menacing presence, as if it is asleep, ready to awaken at any moment.

 

A thunderhawk gunship suddenly breaks through the cloud cover and settles down on bright pillars of white flame. The ramp lowers and light shines from the inside of the gunship onto the basalt clearing in front of the gates. Several powerarmoured shapes walk down the ramp as it begins to rain, their dark blue cloaks whipping in the storm.

 

The Thunderhawk blasts off again in the downpour as the half dozen marines

Edited August 12, 2005 by daeothar

[my_name_is_tudor]

thats what I mean when it comes to the elitism/humility aspect. I think that 'elitism' is bringing up images of pride, (not to say that other elitist types are very proud), but in this instance it should bring up images of aloofness, but in a serious way. They're not snooty, but they do see themselves as above the other chapters. - almost like the only people on a par with them are the pilgrims, and the only people above them are the priests, saints and the emperor himself.

 

On the subject of combat doctrine, I'm not very 'up' on military whatnot, but I have a couple of ideas. We all know of the 'holy bolter' idea that runs through the space marine fluff, so how about, as the Castellans are more religious than the average marine, they treat their bolters truly as relics - or religious icons. They will never be without their bolter, and annoint them with all sorts of religious iconography, blessings and purity seals. Perhaps they make extensive use of metal storm ammunition in boarding actions? This would allow them to use bolters with less risk to the integrity of the ship around them.

 

Another more unusual idea (which I'm not very sure on, and I don't expect you to want to take up..) is this: Say a traitor vessel or something is passing through, the Castellans board and cleanse the vessel of all traitors. Their chaplains (of which they have a lot) then spend wuite a while cleansing the ship of all taint, alongside the Libarians of the chapter who cleanse it of any psychic taint. They then deck out the ship in religious iconography and convert it into a floating cathedral, which is then towed into the chain of fortresses between the begining and the end of the pilgrimage route - to act as extra links in the chain along the route.

 

Not sure about this one, I just liked the idea of half wrecked enemy ships being converted into enormous way-stations..

[Zhivago]

Another more unusual idea (which I'm not very sure on, and I don't expect you to want to take up..) is this: Say a traitor vessel or something is passing through, the Castellans board and cleanse the vessel of all traitors. Their chaplains (of which they have a lot) then spend wuite a while cleansing the ship of all taint, alongside the Libarians of the chapter who cleanse it of any psychic taint. They then deck out the ship in religious iconography and convert it into a floating cathedral, which is then towed into the chain of fortresses between the begining and the end of the pilgrimage route - to act as extra links in the chain along the route.

 

Not sure about this one, I just liked the idea of half wrecked enemy ships being converted into enormous way-stations..

 

But if we/you ditch the chaos ship, and replace it with old space hulk, boarded by castellans, and thus claimed their as prize by conquest. Now I doubt that while it might seen radical move, not many would like to persuade marines off from something they have taken as their own.

[my_name_is_tudor]

Yeah, it's just the sort of string of wrecked, reclaimed vessels I like, perhaps asteroids could be pulled onto the route as well, which then have cathderals and the like built on them.

 

Perhaps these waystations are manned not be Castellans but by high ranking priests and their orderlies - not as military bases but as religious outposts.

[Cpt_Tiberius]

Ok first off I love the tower sheild Idea :rolleyes: (I'll definately have to draw that.

 

And I love the "Holy" bolter Idea. As for knightly theme's we, could equip most of the vet sgt./captains with powerswords/regular swords instead of fists/claws.

 

Here is my opinion on ther attitude. I think they should have a knightly bearing to them. Following a code of chivalry. While they disagree with the other chapters they are respectful to their faces, following good manners and all. They see the pilgrims as lesser beings who they have to look after. They know that they are superior to them, but believe that the Emperor made them that way to protect his loyal servants.

 

I also agree that they should have many fortresses along the way. Have the 2 main fortresses at either end of the pilgrimage. then have 5-6 major fortresses (housing around 20-50 marines) then dotted along the way are several small Keeps (5-10 marines) to protect small way shrines. Similar to the small fort described in the dark angels novel. (as was mentioned above)

 

For scouts, just model them with helmets, or use the stormtrooper models.

Edited August 12, 2005 by Cpt_Tiberius

[my_name_is_tudor]

thing is, the knightly theme is pretty much what all other codex chapters have going on, especially the 'lesser beings they have to protect' part. The humility aspect is (or well, would be) very unique amongst space marines, and if they spent such a long time amongst the ecclesiarchy they would probably start taking on a humble outlook to life. They are but the Emperor's servants, along with every other human - they are merely charged to serve in a different way.

[Ferrata]

Well, this does seem to be going better then expected :rolleyes:

 

I'm now leaning towards them being humble and extremely pious. I think we should spend maybe the rest of today trying to decide the final character of the chapter, then move onto the facts.

 

I'll make a list of the idea's brought up.

 

Ferrata