+ IA: Imperial Castellans +

[my_name_is_tudor]

Which (in theory) are actions they shouldn't be performing as scouts anyway.

[ironloki]

Yeah scouts are probably not used for boarding parties. Terminators were designed for it and power armour is good but scouts are probably better left on the Fortresses as they practice etc before becomming full brethren. You could perhaps set up two rule sets (Although this is probably left till the end)

 

One normal and the other with limitiations i.e 0-2 scout units and traits?

[Ferrata]

You could perhaps set up two rule sets (Although this is probably left till the end)

 

One normal and the other with limitiations i.e 0-2 scout units and traits?

 

Agreed, better left to the end. But the idea was to have it all game legal, but maybe add more restrictions to home the character of the chapter. Like saying the 0-2 scout choices

 

Ferrata

[Commissar Molotov]

- Regarding the Ecclesiarchal dogma. I think a better stance would be that the constant flow of zealous pilgrims would influence the chapter's beliefs. Whilst they don't follow the dogma to each mass, hymn and verse, they do believe the Emperor is a God. The fact that they are mutants in themselves would necessitate a slight shift from the Ecclesiarchal dogma. This could lead to a large number of chaplains.

 

- Humility is something good. I believe that the chapter would encourage humility. Before the great and bountiful glories of the Immortal God-Emperor of Holy Terra, all Imperial subjects are nothing. They are humanity's servants.

 

- I like the idea of way-forts being large space stations (ramilles star-forts, perhaps) that orbit several of the major worlds in the pilgrimage route. They could be operated by chapter serfs and the like, and offer a safe home for pilgrims. Perhaps the Ecclesiarchy dislike the idea of marines being on "hallowed ground" and so the Castellans operate from space.

 

- The number of way-forts depends, to an extent, on the two ends of the pilgrimage route. Someone said Terra to Dimmamar. I get the impression most people would go the other way - Terra is just about the holiest planet you can visit (or so the Imperium at large is told, read Wolfblade for the truth).

 

- This brings me to another point. we need to scrap Dimmamar and create our own homeworld. Otherwise Games Workshop can write a piece of fluff in next month's White Dwarf about how Dimmamar was destroyed by tyranids/orks/eldar and the core of our chapter is destroyed. Plus that means our chapter would be based on Terra, which opens up a heap of problems.

 

- I'm not opposed to scouts wearing power armour. Now, you think of scouts as scouts because they perform the function of scouting or skirmishing. In chapters such as the Black Templars they aren't called scouts, because they don't scout. So perhaps from now on which should refer to them as neophytes to avoid close-minded attitudes. :D Now, the Space Wolves put Blood Claws straight into power armour. Using neophytes in a boarding action isn't necessarily bad. Perhaps they're a rear-guard, securing areas after the bulk of troops have been through.

 

- That said, Scouts in Scout armour have their uses - clearing small ducts and tunnels and the like. Perhaps shotguns would be useful. They would need all the organs barring the black carapace to be totally protected against... risks. Which would lead to the pilgrimage giving neophytes the black carapace at the end.

 

- The idea of the pilgrimage. Nobody's come up with a reason for it. I guess it would be to instil the neophytes with humility - an understanding of what the pilgrims have to go through. They start at one home-world and have to travel to the other, where they are awarded their gear. Perhaps before the pilgrimage they are ceremonially stripped over their armour and weapons. Also, consider what I said earlier about making the neophytes undergo the pilgrimage in squads. That would bond the squad together as they endure hardships and instil a great deal of comraderie.

 

- When we started the chapter the idea was for a chapter almost exclusively operating in space. While I'm aware that most people have a bright green grassy table, we need to consider that 99% of the Castellans' actions would be in space, with operating on a planet a rarity. Please take that into consideration.

Edited August 14, 2005 by Commissar Molotov

[Ferrata]

Bloody Molotov with his long bloody posts, simple man simple :D :P

 

- Regarding the Ecclesiarchal dogma. I think a better stance would be that the constant flow of zealous pilgrims would influence the chapter's beliefs. Whilst they don't follow the dogma to each mass, hymn and verse, they do believe the Emperor is a God. The fact that they are mutants in themselves would necessitate a slight shift from the Ecclesiarchal dogma. This could lead to a large number of chaplains.

Well, I was only shortening everything down to simple points, so we can expand on each part as we get there. While its nessecary to know that the see the Emperor as a god, much like the Ecclesiarchal, we dont need to go into that much detail until we get to the belief section. When we reach there, you can get into the fine details of their belief system if you wish :D I think we should go for a large number of chaplians, sounds fun

 

- Humility is something good. I believe that the chapter would encourage humility. Before the great and bountiful glories of the Immortal God-Emperor of Holy Terra, all Imperial subjects are nothing. They are humanity's servants.

 

Sounds right to me. This is one of their main traits then, the humane.

 

- I like the idea of way-forts being large space stations (ramilles star-forts, perhaps) that orbit several of the major worlds in the pilgrimage route. They could be operated by chapter serfs and the like, and offer a safe home for pilgrims. Perhaps the Ecclesiarchy dislike the idea of marines being on "hallowed ground" and so the Castellans operate from space.

As for their beliefs, we have the basic idea of the way-fort plan. The details can be discussed later on when we get to that section (which section that would be, Im not sure, but we'll find one)

 

- The number of way-forts depends, to an extent, on the two ends of the pilgrimage route. Someone said Terra to Dimmamar. I get the impression most people would go the other way - Terra is just about the holiest planet you can visit (or so the Imperium at large is told, read Wolfblade for the truth).

 

Location is an important thing we need to discuss. We know we want them protecting pilgrims on a route, but we dont know where.

 

- This brings me to another point. we need to scrap Dimmamar and create our own homeworld. Otherwise Games Workshop can write a piece of fluff in next month's White Dwarf about how Dimmamar was destroyed by tyranids/orks/eldar and the core of our chapter is destroyed. Plus that means our chapter would be based on Terra, which opens up a heap of problems.

See Above

 

- I'm not opposed to scouts wearing power armour. Now, you think of scouts as scouts because they perform the function of scouting or skirmishing. In chapters such as the Black Templars they aren't called scouts, because they don't scout. So perhaps from now on which should refer to them as neophytes to avoid close-minded attitudes.  Now, the Space Wolves put Blood Claws straight into power armour. Using neophytes in a boarding action isn't necessarily bad. Perhaps they're a rear-guard, securing areas after the bulk of troops have been through.

 

From now on, when talking about "scouts" we use the term "sweetcheeks" ;) or "kids" if you dont fancy calling them sweetcheeks. Once again, Im not sure on the importance of this to define character, it seems that we need to discuss it, but it doesnt majorily effect the origins of the chapter.

 

- The idea of the pilgrimage. Nobody's come up with a reason for it. I guess it would be to instil the neophytes with humility - an understanding of what the pilgrims have to go through. They start at one home-world and have to travel to the other, where they are awarded their gear. Perhaps before the pilgrimage they are ceremonially stripped over their armour and weapons. Also, consider what I said earlier about making the neophytes undergo the pilgrimage in squads. That would bond the squad together as they endure hardships and instil a great deal of comraderie.

Who's was the pilgrimage idea? I thought it was just to gain a connection between themselves and their duty when they become marines. The idea of squads is good though. Maybe have them need to do the circuit again if too few pass.

 

- When we started the chapter the idea was for a chapter almost exclusively operating in space. While I'm aware that most people have a bright green grassy table, we need to consider that 99% of the Castellans' actions would be in space, with operating on a planet a rarity. Please take that into consideration.

 

While this is true, we need also find a way to represent them on table top with giving them too many disadvantages because they usually fight on ships.

 

Is everyone good with the basic ideas of the chapter so we can move onto Origin of the chapter (which shouldnt take that long, hopefully :D )

 

Ferrata

[ironloki]

The details can be discussed later on when we get to that section (which section that would be, Im not sure, but we'll find one)

The forts would probably be under organisation or perhaps homeworld :D

 

Since we are going with them on a pilgrimage route why dont we simply make our own? That way its completely free running.

 

 

- The idea of the pilgrimage. Nobody's come up with a reason for it. I guess it would be to instil the neophytes with humility - an understanding of what the pilgrims have to go through. They start at one home-world and have to travel to the other, where they are awarded their gear. Perhaps before the pilgrimage they are ceremonially stripped over their armour and weapons. Also, consider what I said earlier about making the neophytes undergo the pilgrimage in squads. That would bond the squad together as they endure hardships and instil a great deal of comraderie.

 

Im liking this. It strengthens their brotherhood. Sounds a bit like the Alien Vs Predator movie. The young warriors set out to earn their Holy equipment.

 

Perhaps we should start a new thread (Keep this one for General thoughts on the chapter as a whole) but set up the next one to deal with Geneseed (unkown would be great as that would limit bickering ;) ), founding etc

[Brother-Librarian Akritedes]

I agree, we have a good basic structure to build on now, so we should move on. We could leave this one up, but what if someone has ANOTHER idea and we have a majority of people trying to add/subtract from what we have already? If we're into Doctrine or Beliefs by then... :D

[Ferrata]

The forts would probably be under organisation or perhaps homeworld 

 

Since we are going with them on a pilgrimage route why dont we simply make our own? That way its completely free running.

Seems like the best place.

 

Perhaps we should start a new thread (Keep this one for General thoughts on the chapter as a whole) but set up the next one to deal with Geneseed (unkown would be great as that would limit bickering  ), founding etc

 

Well, I was aiming to keep it all nice and tidy in one thread. Maybe we should summarize everything thats been said here. Post them in my empty second post and get a mod to shred this thread back to the begining?

 

Ferrata

[Commissar Molotov]

Bloody Molotov with his long bloody posts, simple man simple

The fun thing is that these aren't as long as they could be. ;)

 

-> I don't think we should write out one section and then umm and err whilst we're thinking about what to write in the next. We need to have a cohesive idea of the chapter that can be drawn through the whole chapter. In that sense we need to have a fairly detailed set of notes for each section before we sit down to write them.

 

Sounds right to me. This is one of their main traits then, the humane.

 

There you go again, Ferrata ^_^ Humanity isn't the same as humility. ;)

 

 

-> The way-forts do not particularly tie into the way-forts. They'd likely go in the homeworld section, as the homeworld describes bases of operation.

 

-> Location is important as it will decide in part who's attacking the pilgrims. For the Castellans to be based their originally, there would have to be a sizeable and constant threat that the standard forces of the Imperium could not deal with. That suggests either skilled pirates looking for something to steal (Eldar) or aliens that keep coming back because they're too stupid to know better (Orks).

 

-> I thought I had already suggested creating our own pilgrimage route - if not, it was fairly heavily implied when I said we needed to scrap the Terra-Dimmamar idea.

 

-> Moving over Ferrata's jokes about the Neophytes ^_^ The function and role played by scouts does little to define character. It will play an important role in the organisation/combat doctrine sections. The future of any marine chapter is in the tenth company. As such, it will be an important part of the chapter. That said, you are right in that it doesn't help with the origins of the chapter - but neither do the ideas of the scout pilgrimage (among others).

 

While this is true, we need also find a way to represent them on table top with giving them too many disadvantages because they usually fight on ships.

 

Well, we're fluff-writers, not game-players. We shouldn't concede to the vagaries of the game-table if it's going to disrupt our fluff. ;) Whilst it would be nice if people saw the finished Castellans IA and said "cool, I want to play Castellans" we shouldn't go "We want people to play Castellans, so let's make it super-simple for them to play Castellans on a planet." - Surely our priority is good fluff, not good table-top results? ;)

[my_name_is_tudor]

the pilgrimage idea was mine by the way, I originally reasoned that it would be to instill humility in the neophyte as they see first hand the difficulties the pilgrims face in the name of their god.

[ironloki]

It could also be one of two types of pilgrimage's.

 

Its either to visit Holy relics - Perhaps the Emperor walked here or did something. Or its like a Holyland where they go to engage the Enemy. Perhaps like an assembly points where ragbands of Devout warriors prepare to leave for the Such and such Campaign.

 

I like the last idea as the image of Crazy zealots being protected as they prepare their vows ready to engage the Heretic and Xenos would be cool ^_^

[my_name_is_tudor]

The way I see it, it needs to be a proper pilgrimage, i.e. to worship the Emperor by visiting relics and holy sites, and paying your respects. If it was a crusade type affair, then it would lose some of its 'specialness', given that the Imperium sets out on crusades left right and centre. (Plus the crusade aspect is a bit too BT).

 

As far as location is concerned.. I'm not sure. I think in terms of enemies we just need to pick something that isn't being used a lot. Chaos fit the bill when it comes to the religious issue, the pilgrimage routes to the holy land were assailed by muslim armies, who the christian pilgrims (and knights) viewed as heathens. I assume those pilgrims were under attack from piratical armies rather than organised forces - else the pilgrimage routes wouldn't have survived for long. So perhaps some sort of piratical chaos force? The Red Corsairs maybe?

 

Enemies to avoid using I think are Orks (brings us too near the BT theme, which we are pretty close to in points already), Tau (wrong place.. obviously), Tyranids (wrong place (maybe) and mentioned a lot already due to the UM).

[Ferrata]

I don't think we should write out one section and then umm and err whilst we're thinking about what to write in the next. We need to have a cohesive idea of the chapter that can be drawn through the whole chapter. In that sense we need to have a fairly detailed set of notes for each section before we sit down to write them.

While this is correct, I dont think we need to get stuck down in the fine details of each point because then each part could become too complicated.

 

Location is important as it will decide in part who's attacking the pilgrims. For the Castellans to be based their originally, there would have to be a sizeable and constant threat that the standard forces of the Imperium could not deal with. That suggests either skilled pirates looking for something to steal (Eldar) or aliens that keep coming back because they're too stupid to know better (Orks).

Enemies to avoid using I think are Orks (brings us too near the BT theme, which we are pretty close to in points already), Tau (wrong place.. obviously), Tyranids (wrong place (maybe) and mentioned a lot already due to the UM).

Each xenos does not need to be tied to a single chapter. The nids have links to the Scythes, Ultras and Lamentors. Orks are the most numerous enemy, their quite easy to write reason for attacks and they can be anywhere. I dont see orks being a BT enemy. I think it is between orks and eldar, maybe chaos as well

 

Well, we're fluff-writers, not game-players. We shouldn't concede to the vagaries of the game-table if it's going to disrupt our fluff.  Whilst it would be nice if people saw the finished Castellans IA and said "cool, I want to play Castellans" we shouldn't go "We want people to play Castellans, so let's make it super-simple for them to play Castellans on a planet." - Surely our priority is good fluff, not good table-top results?

 

True, but we need to find a balance where we have a good fluff base and still keep a playble tt force for those who wish to use our version. I was aiming at something along the lines of the GW IA's, where the fluff guides the rules, but dont destroy the army.

 

Ferrata

[Brother-Librarian Akritedes]

Well, think about it. They already have Purity Above All, and possibly Have Faith in Suspicion or Death before Dishonor as the flaw. That makes them well-enough balanced, but if we want two we can either take Suffer not the works of heretics or Suffer not the alien to live, and avoid having two flaws. Personally, I think Purity above all is all we need, really, unless we want them to really hate a particular xenos.

 

Back on the backstory track, I think we've got what goes where hammered out, or close enough. I must agree with Mol though, no Marine can really be considered humane. Inquisitor says "Kill the old granny and her grand-children.", and the Marine says "As the Emperor Wills, it shall be done." and begins shooting them.

 

Now, the Neophytes. I figured it was sort of a final test, like what the Space Wolf initiates go through before being implanted with all the organs. Only harder, since they go from one system to another, rather then one edge of a continent to the middle. Of course, by then the Castellan scouts have everything but the Black Carapace. If your squad gets through, you pass. Leave someone behind without bringing back proof of their death, and ye lose unless ye have a damn good reason. But its also a religious thing, going with the pilgrims and visiting the shrines along the way, learning why we protect these people, etc. etc. Something to give them individual survival skills in an unknown environ and to teach 'em humility.

[Commissar Molotov]

The scouts are stripped of weapons and armour, are given no help by the chapter. They have to make their passage from one homeworld to the other, relying only on the generosity of other pilgrims. They are not allowed to reveal that they are marines, and have to struggle along with the other pilgrims to get along the pilgrimage route. Thus they learn the value of generosity, of humility, and the hardships the pilgrims endure.

[ironloki]

Sounds good molotov - They have to earn their stuff. Perhaps they have to get themselves a little container of the sacred soil of "insert planet here" and its like a constant reminder. I think the iron snakes had something like this with their water vessels from home? :lol:

 

Im not sure about not pretending to be marines. Its pretty hard to hide a big hug muscle guy amongst pilgrims :P

[Commissar Molotov]

You'd be amazed what you can hide inside robes.

 

 

 

The reasoning behind them not being allowed to reveal they're marines is that if they did, the other pilgrims would scramble to give them every help they could, giving the scouts an easy ride to the second homeworld.

Edited August 15, 2005 by Commissar Molotov

[ironloki]

Yeah a really big robe :lol:

 

You could also go down the route that the people know they are marines and since the Church is not entirely happy about them, they are almost shamed as they go on their pilgrimage. They are looked down upon and when they complete the pilgrimage its as if they have been accepted. This teaches them hardship, helps them understand the pilgrims, their beliefs and also Humility :P

[Ferrata]

I must agree with Mol though, no Marine can really be considered humane.

 

Shut Up, I said the wrong word. I dont do english, I'm a science-person :lol:

 

Brother-Librarian Akritedes we're also considering adding more drawbacks so the theme is hammered into the army.

 

I like the current idea for the scouts, maybe it could be the first thing they do so it's easy to hide. So they travel from the homeworld to the pilgrim end on the ship. Then work backwords along the way-forts, so when they get back to the homeworld they can be given their power armour.

 

Ferrata

[my_name_is_tudor]

Where next frater? Describing the home world? Deciding on the location/path of the pilgrimage route? I refuse to let this thread fall off the edge of page one!!

 

Bringing up the subject of half companies, why not have a more radical reorganisation, but with the same effect. Having the companies split gives the impression of it being a temporary/improvised organisation. How about instead having 20 companies, each of 50? Or perhaps more, in fact. Perhaps a very large volume of pilgrims pass through, and recruitment happens more frequently than in the average chapter. Why not make the Castellans an unusually large chapter, with say 20 companies of 100, or something like that.

 

Each company could have its own way fort and heraldry, and perhaps even a title rather than just 12th company.

[Ferrata]

Where next frater? Describing the home world? Deciding on the location/path of the pilgrimage route? I refuse to let this thread fall off the edge of page one!!

Well, I was waiting to make sure most people where good with what we got. I'm sure the mods wont mind if this thread suffers a slight threadomancy :devil:

 

Why not make the Castellans an unusually large chapter, with say 20 companies of 100, or something like that.

 

That is something I'm not a fan off. I dont like chapters which are large, personally I prefer smaller, under-dog chapters. I would prefer the Castellans to operate as small specialised units over force in numbers.

 

Each company could have its own way fort and heraldry, and perhaps even a title rather than just 12th company.

 

Now that is sometine I like. Maybe the could be called "3rd Company [insert name]"

 

Ferrata

[my_name_is_tudor]

The thing is, if we are planning on having the chapter organised into 'half companies', I think they need to be companies in their own right, as the idea of splitting companies seems too much like a temporary or improvised measure.

 

Even if the reorganisation was improvised to begin with, it wouldn't be long before it became 'official', with each half company taking on a number between 11 and 20. making 20 companies of 50. No change to the size of the chapter, but distinct changes to the organisation.

 

What I mean is, if the Castellans have spent their entire life with half companies posted at different way forts, surely after a while the Chapter Master would declare each half company a company in its own right, even if it was only to stop complications?

[Ferrata]

Well, the details of the half companies has been discussed. I'm good with companies only being 50 men and them having numerous companies. I think we should move onto to sorting out their seed and founding. Even though *unknown* would be the easiest, it does seem a little lame :devil:

 

Ferrata

[my_name_is_tudor]

Imperial Fists gene seed seems the obvious choice, but is it perhaps a little too.. I don't know, average I guess.

 

BA seed is out of the question, UM - yawn, Iron Hands would require a more tech-oriented chapter, raven guard doesn't fit with the defensive role, SW is out of the question, DA perhaps - but it would be a departure from the unforgiven theme, White Scars again don't fit the role, Salamanders could work, no dragon theme here though..

 

Of foundings: I don't know much about the timeline, so I'll have a look at the stickied thread. I do like the idea of them being quite old, as if they have been performing this task longer than they really remember, part of the reason they beleive it to be a sacred duty.

[Brother-Librarian Akritedes]

That makes good sense...so we want something along the lines of 14th-18th founding? That should put them back in the M20's-30's.

 

Geneseed wise, it really has to be either Imperial Fists or Ultramarines, although we can twist it by making it come from a specific chapter (say, Crimson Fists geneseed instead of direct from the Imperial Fists).