Run something through

[CB319]

I've already started painting some, but I wanted to run this idea past you anyway:

 

Chapter Name: Virtuous Hands (no relation to Imperial Fists)

 

The Virtuous Hands are a 'good' heretical chapter. They are older than the Space Marines themselves, but have only been organized as a coherent entity since a little before the end of the Age of Strife. They are made of those who deplore the over-violent policies of the Empire, yet have not been destroyed by the inquisition both because they still swear allegiance to the Emperor, and because they have been the turning force in many battles, intentionally erased from the history books, emerging into the public conscience only about fifty years ago, where they are universally admired (another reason for the inquisition not to destroy them.)

 

They have no primarch or common gene-seed, drawing their ranks from existing Marine Chapters. Their founder is unknown, but the commonly held date of their founding is when Brothers Marcus and Publius banded together, as well as the men under their command, to defend the Emperor's palace against a techno-barbarian attack during the latter stages of the Age of Strife, while Terra was being conquered.

 

Their colors are: Black on the helmet, gloves, elbow pads, shoulder pads, knee pads, and boots. Blood Red trim on their shoulder pads, helmet, and on the kneepads, depending on which model it is. Skulls are always white, no matter where they are. Dark Angels Green everywhere else. Any former chapter symbols are painted white. They have no decals, but their symbol can be considered to be what they put on the front of their standards: the Japanese Kanji for Death (死)

 

The Virtuous Hands are divided into two sections: the Virtuous Hands and the Virtuous Guard, a relatively new section made up of Imperial Guard that have gone to the Virtuous Hands. They wear the same colors.

 

Virtuous Hands members are very meticulous about their equipment, making sure it is completely free of dirt and rust, some tank commanders even being known to clean the mud off of their tracks in the middle of battle. They also have an intense fascination with all of the various forms of their armor, keeping large stocks of every version of armor intended only for viewing.

 

Scouts in the Virtuous Hands are also respected much more than they are in other Chapters, willing to go into battle with little armor on.

 

They have no definite organization, much the same as the Black Templars, forming temporary bands to achieve an objective or defend a friendly force. When they are not in battle, they retire to any of the bases provided for them by the local populace scattered around the galaxy.

 

Given that they recieve no equipment from any of the forge worlds, it is surprising how modern their equipment is, since it all has to come from what new members bring with them from their own Chapter.

 

They are also one of the larger Chapters, the full extent of their numbers being unknown, but most people agree on a number of around 20,000 or so, and countless more are added when the Virtuous Guard are factored in. However, compared with the vast numbers of the regular Space Marines and Imperial Guard, they are very miniscule.

 

So, what do you think? I will post pictures soon.

[Grimdarkness]

1 how do they deploy if they have no forge or forge world support

2 so no tech or appho marines what about chappie's.

3 i don't think any chapter whould just let it's tank and crews be usurped.

4 the guard ^_^ i don't know about them.

5 the masses do not dictate what the big ][ can and cannot do :P

 

Grimm

[CB319]

1. Well, when the people come, they bring their stuff with them. Starships, dropships, you name it, they have it, someone brought one with them.

2. When did I say no techs or apoths or chaps? Sure, they've got them! People from everywhere go to them.

3. Who cares how they get to the Virtuous Hands, as long as they do? You're spoiling the fun!

4. What's wrong with the guard? They are the masses!

5. Well, c'mon, you figure with enough masses, and enough people in the military sympathetic to them, of course the ][ will reconsider attacking them! I'm sure they know where to draw the line, and of course the Hands swear allegiance to the Emperor.

[--Lord_Panthro--]

I like it.. however there are one or two things i need to pick at.

 

- the sheer size of the Virtuous Hands. I mean like :P hell... if 20,00 ^_^ is the number of marines then i think ;) ... WOW.

 

compared with the vast numbers of the regular Space Marines and Imperial Guard, they are very miniscule.

Ok unless you mean 'Compared to the total amount of SM and IG' i would disagree. Most chapters are 1000 strong so compared to the Hands the chapters are miniscule.

 

also i have to pic at the fact that very few Chaplains and the like would leave their own chapter to join another. This seems very unlikely in my opinion but thats just me.

 

Any way it looks like you have a nice strong theme going so keep it up. nice work.

 

 

Panthro

[ironloki]

Lets have a look

 

The Virtuous Hands are a 'good' heretical chapter

^_^ Thats a bit of a paradox is it not? Perhaps Elaborate on this

 

They are older than the Space Marines themselves

 

How? What do you mean by older than space marines? Do you mean pre-Primarch? If so thats nigh on impossible as they would have dies of old age (Chaos marines are generally sustained by the EoT while few marines are alive today that remember their Primarch i.e. the wolves Venerable dread whos name elludes me at the moment :P )

 

They have no primarch or common gene-seed, drawing their ranks from existing Marine Chapters

I thought they were older than the marines themselves? I can see what you mean - a band of marines stuck together but you need to elaborate on it. (Perhaps broken down/ almost destroyed chapters are blue tacted together under these guys ;) )

 

but most people agree on a number of around 20,000 or so

 

Thats pretty big. The average chapter has about 1,000. So your twenty times bigger. The black templars are rumoured to be massive but a chapter this big would be seen as far too dangerous. The legions where broken down to prevent any one person having huge power so why would they let a chapter build themselves twenty times over.

 

Not too bad but I would tweak some of the earlier parts as they dont fit that well. If you sorted out their origins a bit more then a lot more of it would slide into place easily ^_^

[CB319]

When I said that they are older than the SM themselves I meant that the Chapter itself is older than the SM, not necessarily the members themselves.

As far as 'good' heresy, well, because they disagree with what a lot of the military and inquisition does, they are considered heretical. However, because they have not turned to Chaos or tried to fight the Inquisition, they are still considered 'good.'

As far as the size, I guess I could reduce it to around 10,000. Because people are always coming over and always dying, there are no records as to how many marines there are.

 

As soon as I can find my copy of the rulebook, and my camera, I will attach some images, and give some traits. However, I was thinking of adding a trait that wasn't in the rulebook, and balancing it, of course, but, I was thinking, because they have so much popular support, whenever they are fighting in a town or city, they get a +1 to movement, weapons skill, strength, and ballistics skill. (Not sure if those are the right words, I haven't played in a few years, what with school and all.)

[ironloki]

When I said that they are older than the SM themselves I meant that the Chapter itself is older than the SM, not necessarily the members themselves

I would change the wording of this. A Marine chapter is established with marines. So having a chapter older than space marines is confusing. What was it before?

 

As far as 'good' heresy, well, because they disagree with what a lot of the military and inquisition does, they are considered heretical. However, because they have not turned to Chaos or tried to fight the Inquisition, they are still considered 'good.'

 

I would change this. Say they are unorthodox. Saying Heretics conjures up images of Horus and chaos etc ;) They can disagree with the inquisition but I doubt you'd last long (aka the celestial lions)

 

Im still not sure on the size. Why does it have to be so big? Can't it be standard size or close enough?

 

If the chapter doesn't like the ways of the Imperium and inquisition and is as big as you say - there is a big chance they would be disbanded as its too big a threat to the imperiums power. Why would you allow 10,000 marines to run around criticising the Imperium ^_^

[my_name_is_tudor]

the other thing about the size is, well, I just can't imagine 20,000 marines deciding their 10,000 year old views on right and wrong were incorrect - and managing to take all sorts of gear with them. I would expect such a chapter to be smaller than a standard chapter, more like a bunch of stragglers, with limited gear and limited man power - they can still function like this, and can still be a damn cool idea, think about the Crimson Fists or the Scythes of the Emperor.

 

On the topic of whether masses can affect an Inquisitor's decision: they really can't, if a planet decides that a chapter that disobeys imperial law is the right thing, chances are the planet will be declared excomunicatus traitorus by some Inquisitor or other and bombed to high heaven. You have to remember that the Imperium only sees in black and white, loyalist and traitor. If you are not with them, you are against them, and if you are against them, they will assume chaos taint.

 

Another thing is, what would a chapter that deplore the Imperium's violent approach actually spend their time doing.. Space marines are the ultimate army, they are designed for all-out war, I doubt they even distinguish between civilians and soldiers, they'd rather massacre everyone and avoid a re-incursion of violence that way than be diplomatic and such..

 

I like the idea of a group of rebel/unorthodox marines forming together in sort of a haphazard group - but I think your reasonings for it happening need to be changed a bit.

[Commissar Molotov]

- How are your chapter 'older than the Space Marines themselves'? From your other comments it seems your chapter was around before the Primarchs. You really, really need to consider changing that.

 

- Also, consider 'public consciousness' in a galaxy-wide Empire. There'll be people who have no idea of your chapter. Most humans don't know the intricacies of chapter relationships. Your chapter could easily have an 'accident' in the warp like so many other 'heretics'.

 

- I'm also unsure as to how they are comprised of those who deplore the over-violent policies of the Emperor. So these are a renegade group, from existing chapters, of marines who which the Imperium was fluffy and nice? Those marines, being psycho-conditioned, trained killers?

 

Twenty thousand is far too much. The Black Templars are theorised to be around 6,000, and they're thought to be one of the largest chapters. You need to clearly define the numbers of the Hands and the Guard.

 

As Panthro said, I have my doubts a Chaplain would leave a chapter to join another one.

 

Your fluff is good, and with some tweaking it has the possibility to be excellent, but there are some really blatant problems, in all honesty. You're claiming a chapter that was around since before the primarchs, that was around during the heresy... and nobody mentioned it?

[Aurelius Rex]

I am not really sure where to start here. Most of the things have already been flagged above ('good' marines, their huge numbers, pre-heresy etc, etc...) but I will just mention one thing.

 

Are these marines that join the 'chapter' disaffected marines from the other chapters who up and leave, bringing with them their own tanks, starships and the like?

 

If so, then they would be renegades from their own chapters, as there is no mention or even possibility of chapter masters letting marines who question chapter doctrine just leave, taking with them their kit to join a group that seems more like a vast army of Red Corsairs than anything else. ;)

 

Any marines that started questioning the way the chapter does things in this way would get his hypno-indoctrination doubled, and would be jailed in the chapter brig / put to the sword, and any that escaped to join such a group would find it their fate to be hunted to the ends of the galaxy... just think how the Dark Angels react to the Fallen. ^_^

 

The closest examples I can think to a collaborative marine force are the following:

 

1. The Deathwatch. Marines go off for a while to help the Inquisition stem the Xenos hordes, before returning.

2. The unofficial 'Legio Bolter & Chainsword', set up by our Admin, Brother Tyler. Marines are seconded permanantly by their chapter masters in an attempt to foster cooperation within the Adeptus Astartes community.

3. Crusade armies. A marine force made up of individual squads from many different chapters that undertake a particular short-term mission (crusade) to gain honour for their chapter, without draining the resources of one single chapter.

4. Renegades / Red Corsairs. As above, marines that have turned their back on their chapters and are hunted by the Imperium.

 

 

Your chapter idea is currently getting a lot of criticism / comment for being a long way from being recognisable as existing in the 40k universe, and while they are your marines, and you can do whatever you like with them, you would probably find it even more satisfying to have a chapter that people do not wince when they hear about it. I hope that the ideas and feedback that we have given will be useful. ;)

[Brother-Librarian Akritedes]

Agreed. Not only are Loyalist marines going "traitor" rare, but I really can't see any Chaplains or Librarians doing so. Techmarines are possible, but really not likely from what I can see. Apothecaries are perhaps the only Marines who might, since given their role it is possible that they may indeed be more compassionate then other Marines.

 

Everyone else IS right about the chapter origins though. How did they come around BEFORE the Primarchs were created by the Emperor? Since Marines were constructed from some of the Primarch research, and after the Primarchs were done, this seems impossible. The numbers are a bit unreal, but not impossible.

 

Now, of course, these are YOUR marines. You can always do what you want with them, regardless of what we say. Everything we put here is just suggestion, albeit sometimes forcefully suggested. ^_^

[CB319]

Hmm. Well, I have thought, and I will change and elaborate on a few things.

Older than space marines:

Here is how it is. So, originally, they were just part of the military, not necessarily marines, but when the marines were created, when some of them went over, they also made it into a recognizable marine force. So while it is a SM force, it wasn't originally one, as originally there weren't any SMs.

I will further reduce the size of the Hands. About 3,000. If there are at least a thousand chapters, each with a thousand marines, than think of the chances, there have to be some that can escape.

 

They don't really think the empire should be fluffy, the only difference between them and the rest of the military is that they see shades of grey. So, unorthodox is a better word. Yes, they are disaffected marines that leave their chapter with whatever they are wearing. If they are wearing armor and have a plasma rifle and chainsword, then the Hands gain a suit of armor, a plasma rifle, and a chainsword.

 

The size of the Guard is considerably larger, around 10,000 or so, because there are, if I remember correctly, around 100 guardsmen for every marine. And, because the IG are not put through such rigorous...training, they are more likely to leave and simply join up, again, with whatever they have with them.

 

And I will admit the possibility that many marines die trying to join. But chances are that a good many make it.

 

I want this chapter to be unlikely, but possible. Is there anything else that should be changed?

[ironloki]

Here is how it is. So, originally, they were just part of the military, not necessarily marines, but when the marines were created, when some of them went over, they also made it into a recognizable marine force. So while it is a SM force, it wasn't originally one, as originally there weren't any SMs.

 

So that would be a section of Imperial Army (aka guard) before it being taken over by marines? Seems a bit weird. Why dont you simply make it a marine chapter like normal? And after a few incurions etc they dont like what they see and therefore see the need for change? ^_^

[crossmagus]

Traits can help here....

 

As another "desenchanted" chapter concerning the state of the Imperium, the trait disadvantage that prevents allies can help out here. We really don't want any =][= wandering around our facilities and talking too closely to our men. And when they do, well...

 

We just explain that they left us as planned and said they had a date with the Dark Angels. For centuries, nosy =][= have never checked in after paying a visit to the Dark Angels. (Clearly some navigational hazard is at work there.)

 

No getting close to the other chapters, no getting close to the DH/WH forces, no assassins, no allies.

 

It's how the chapters with a secret keep a secret.....

[CB319]

Sounds like a good idea. Where is my camera? I just moved and now I can't find it...

[Commissar Molotov]

I think you need to reconsider the fact that your force was around before marines. Perhaps your planet's homeworld was one of the earliest human colonies (blown far away by a warp storm or some such). Perhaps they kept ancient traditions alive, perhaps when a marine chapter recruited from them they based themselves on an ancient unit that had served the Emperor faithfully in the past.

 

But don't contradict standing fluff by having this peculiar quasi-marine unit exisiting all the way through the heresy and the like. Your chapter gains absolutely nothing from that tid-bit of history.

[CB319]

How am I contradicting standing fluff? As I said, people didn't know about them until about 50 years from the present date in 40K. Why? It's hard to explain, but trust me, there is a reason why.

[Ivoracle]

Well, a few ideas to add to the mix:

 

It seems unlikely that there would be a steady stream of marines defecting from other chapters and bringing their equipment. While it might be part of their history, and something that they actively look to exploit, it seems likely that the chapter also has to recruit like a normal chapter as well, to keep its numbers up. You might think about including this, and think about how they might do it and what populations they might recruite from.

 

Another limiting factors for a rogue marine chapter would be equipment, ammunition, and the like. The support of the Imperial infrastructure should not be underestimated. One last thing to consider is that marine chapters rely on other Imperial institutions for their Navigators and Astropaths.

 

It's possible to conceive of a chapter that is on the hairy edge of being labeled heretical, but hasn't quite crossed the line yet. The Space Wolves seems like a classic example of a highly independent chapter that has bucked Imperial orders on occasion, just because it didn't suit them. You might consider whether your chapter could be more "independent" than "rogue". Maybe their disdain for the Imperial bureacracy isn't something they wear on their sleeve, but rather something they preach among themselves, and allow to guide their plans and actions.

 

These suggestions would obviously be somewhat of a departure from what you've laid out, but I just throw them out there as alternatives that can keep the flavor that you've established without making a chapter that some might see as "going against established fluff".

[CB319]

Those are some very good ideas, I will write a revised fluff soon. Since I'm having trouble finding my rulebook, can you tell me what the traits and disadvantages are?

[ironloki]

How am I contradicting standing fluff?

 

You can go against the flow of current fluff but there will be many points that people dont like (As you can be seen from here)

 

Here are, I think anyway, the major factors.

 

How could the chapter exist before marines? The Emperor attacked Earth with techo barbarians basically and set about making The Primarchs and marines afterwards. There may have been Imperial Guard around though.

 

The chapter is too big (This isn't that major though as long as you can justify it like the Black Templars but if they met in the one place they would get in big trouble due to the codex restrictions)

 

Its hard to justify Marines who dont like the current regimes course of actions, doesn't like the inquisition and is scarily big for the Imperium. I

 

f you were the High lords of Terra would you let anyone critise you and your actions? Especially if they have control of a chapter 6 times larger than normal?

 

You can go with the fluff you have but expect some raised eyebrows unless you can justify them some way ^_^

[Commissar Molotov]

The chapter is too big (This isn't that major though as long as you can justify it like the Black Templars but if they met in the one place they would get in big trouble due to the codex restrictions)

 

It is major if they're twenty times bigger than most chapters, and almost double the size of the Black Templars.

[ironloki]

Well it was cut down to 3,000

 

I will further reduce the size of the Hands. About 3,000. If there are at least a thousand chapters, each with a thousand marines, than think of the chances, there have to be some that can escape.

 

So thats making it more plausible. ^_^

[Aurelius Rex]

If you are really keen on the 'anti-establishment' idea, you could have them be a 'normal' chapter that was founded in the same way as normal, but have them, like the Space Wolves and Dark Angels, be outspoken in their opposition to the percieved excesses of Imperial Dogma.

 

Just watch out that they don't meet the same fate as the Celestial Lions. Link ^_^ ;)

[CB319]

Let me put it this way: I am only calling them a Chapter for lack of a better word. They have no entry in the Index Astartes and no 'official' offiliation with the Space Marines.

 

And even if I were the Emperor, I still wouldn't kill someone who swore complete and total allegiance to me.

 

And the reason that the Chapter is so big is because they don't turn anyone back. How would you feel if you just forfeited your life to go join some people you agree with, get to their door, only to hear 'Sorry, we're full, you have to go back?' And, again, considering there are more than a thousand thousand other marines out there, I don't think 3,000 matters much.

 

Again, they aren't really a normal Chapter. An unorthodox, un-official Chapter is what they are.

 

Where the hell is my camera?

[ironloki]

Let me put it this way: I am only calling them a Chapter for lack of a better word. They have no entry in the Index Astartes and no 'official' offiliation with the Space Marines.

Ok so what are they then if they are not officially a chapter - An imperial guard unit? Marines are organised into chapters. Perhaps explain their origins such as how they came together. So if say some marines left their chapter how did this whole thing get started?

 

And even if I were the Emperor, I still wouldn't kill someone who swore complete and total allegiance to me.

 

Its the High lords that are in charge though. ;) I think I know what you mean though - like the Celestial lions questioning certain aspects of the Imperium, so be prepared for you to run out of supplies and get wrong information from the inquisition ^_^

 

How would you feel if you just forfeited your life to go join some people you agree with, get to their door, only to hear 'Sorry, we're full, you have to go back?' And, again, considering there are more than a thousand thousand other marines out there, I don't think 3,000 matters much.

 

Right I think its beginning to make some kind of sense. But the original thing/chapter creation needs to be sorted first. If you have it that a marine chapter gets upset by seeing the darker side of the Imperium and therefore like to criticise their methods that would make things slot in better.

 

It seems your wanting some kind of unit which doesn't exist in current fluff whereas if you made it a normal chapter it would be better.

 

Also there is the point pointed out above. If these marines left their chapter to join this lot wouldn't they be deamed traitors from the other chapter?

 

i.e 20 marines decide to leave the Dark Crusaders chapter as the have seen the light. Wouldn't the chapter master of the Dark crusaders kill them, hunt them down, lock them up?