Run something through

[CB319]

As I said to your last question, the chances are that at least some of them will make it.

Hmm...let me make it some kind of timeline...how long has it been since the end of the Age of Strife? 20,000 years? Doesn't matter. I'll go in order.

 

Members of the Imperial Army see the genocidal tactics of the Imperium and are horrified. They form their own interior group, merely to know how many others also feel like this. They do not break away from the Army.

 

The Space Marines are formed. The Emperor sets out to conquer Terra.

 

A few Space Marines are horrified by the genocidal tactics of the military in retaliation for a barbarian attack. They learn of the sentiments of the others, and Brothers Marcus and Publius convince the group to break away from the military, while remaining completely loyal to the Emperor. They gain the name 'Virtuous Hands.'

 

The somewhat (though not much) softer Inquisition of the time decrees that the Hands will not be destroyed, but their existence will be kept secret. At the time, they were afraid to destroy a group loyal to the Emperor.

 

Jump forward 20,000 years. They have been fighting this whole time, again, being kept secret. People in the SM who have been helped in minor battles by the Hands learn of them. Some agree with their view and leave to join them.

 

(Insert fluff here about the Hands doing something heroic that does not conflict with standard fluff.) This heroic action is too big to have been completely silenced. The public learns of the Hands and immediately fall in love with them (figuratively.) Miraculously, the Inquisition decides not to overturn the 20,000 year old decree. There is an influx of new people joining. Guardsmen start to join, for the first time. They are administrated by the same people, but are called the Virtuous Guard. For the first time, the Hands also start to recruit from local populaces, eager to join. Their numbers rise to incredible levels, with about 3,000 SMs and countless Imperial Guard (who are less of a problem to the Inquisition, and are relatively ignored.) They still do not receive forgeworld support, but become more able to wage war, as the populaces present them with various gifts from their own minor factories. The hands centralize administration on Proxima Centauri Three, one of the oldest human worlds, and the closest that the Inquisition has decreed that they can come to Terra.

 

What heroic thing could they do that is big, yet stands with current fluff, is my main problem. Hmmm...any suggestions?

[ironloki]

Members of the Imperial Army see the genocidal tactics of the Imperium and are horrified. They form their own interior group, merely to know how many others also feel like this. They do not break away from the Army.

This would have to come after the space marines. I dont know much RT fluff but there was no Imperial Army before the Emperor seized Terra.

 

Its making more sense though ;).

 

The somewhat (though not much) softer Inquisition of the time decrees that the Hands will not be destroyed, but their existence will be kept secret. At the time, they were afraid to destroy a group loyal to the Emperor.

 

I think the inquisition came after The Emperor was put on the throne ^_^ Don't quote me on that though.

 

If this was the time of the Legions this may make sense but Generally the inquisition is not afraid. Many Heretics have been put to death even if they follow the Emperor (Relictors, Soul drinkers ?)

 

Why dont you make them a chapter anyway who decide to break away? rather than making them this ancient pre-heresy organisation?

[CB319]

But this is more interesting. This is something that I have done with other people's stuff in many other forums, and I even did it it High School. Re-write the stuff I wrote in your own words, then post it. I will look it, and hopefully anything you don't understand by re-writing it, I will explain.

[my_name_is_tudor]

Not sure about this really. The idea of a space marine chapter breaking away from the norm when the original 18 legions were about seems pretty dubious - you're talking about during the great crusade here, any marines deciding to break away would most likely have been destroyed by the countless hundreds and thousands of other loyal marines taking part in the same crusade. Then somehow this faction survives the heresy, and despite having huge numbers exceeding any other chapter totaly eludes the eye of the Inquisition (there's no such thing as soft Inquisitors by the way, they have to be ruthless to gain their position - and its up to them to protect the way of life of the imperium, any threat is annihilated by one faction or the other)..

 

The incosistencies are too many..

 

A better way of doing this would be as follows:

 

A chapter of marines (a DIY one) is taking part in a campaign with some other chapter(s) and a lot of IG. During the war, the chapter are rubbed up the wrong way by an Inquisitor or Governer or Commander. Or maybe the IG perform exterminatus on a planet where the chapter would have rathered a more precise approach that would take less lives (they could be a more compassionate than average chapter). The disagreement comes to blows, and the other chapter(s) involved take their side.

 

Over time the campaign shifts from the original offensive as the Imperial commander/inquisitor/governer seeks to destroy the rebel marines. The marines take heavy heavy casualties, but manage to fight their way out. The newly formed chapter takes on the name Virtuous hands, repaints there armour, and makes it their aim to seek out other chapters that the Imperium has turned its back on.

 

The chapter would have less numbers than a standard chapter at first, if it had come from one or two chapters originally, or perhaps just more if it had come from three or four, it would then gain numbers slowly by picking up the straggling remains of other chapters.

 

This would work much better for me, what do the other Frater think?

[CB319]

That is exactly what happened to them, just about 20,000 years earlier. I have decided, and I think that this is reasonable, that the original sentiment came into being about 10 years before the first marines were established, and they were organized into a coherent group about 20 years after.

[ironloki]

That is exactly what happened to them, just about 20,000 years earlier. I have decided, and I think that this is reasonable, that the original sentiment came into being about 10 years before the first marines were established, and they were organized into a coherent group about 20 years after.

 

Its harder to justify them that long ago. The Emperor had just begun his wars of expansion - It was a good thing. Finally Humanity was hitting back at the Daemons and beasts who had contained it. Im not even sure if the Imperial Army began before the marines (You'll need to check that).

 

Nowadays the nature of the Imperium is broken and for a reason - thats how chapters/unbelievers can split through the net. Back when the Legions were around not a single marine would be able to leave the legion. You think that the Primarchs of all people would allow their own troops to leave the legion because they didn't believe in the policies? Remember the Imperial Army was part of the legions before they, the Navy and Adeptus Mechanicus (Robot Legions) were seperated so not only marines were under scrutiny from the Primarchs.

 

If you want to go the route you have taken I would have suggest that a conclave was created amongst the Imperial Army. These men have taken the views as you mention. I wouldn't have them around pre-Emperor and pre-legion but have them during the time of the Primarchs (having them at the time of the Primarchs means its easier to explain and still gives you that ancient feal) So that way you have some moral objectors amongst the Imperial army.

 

The problem is that these men have got to stay hidden from the other 10,000 people in their legion (at least), Survive the Heresy, be on the winning side and then start attracting marines because being so open about their objections before the Disapearance of the Primarchs would be a bad thing.

 

Just some other thoughts that may cause problems :D . You would probably be better basing it later on dating wise as that way the Emperor is on the throne, the legions broken and the Primarchs gone - therefore breaking your chains and allowing you some freedom :)

[CB319]

I will stay the course. Is there any way that it could be as old as the Emperor's Conquest of Terra? That is what I want it to be, and I will not change it. However, I will listen to advice. Keep in mind, before Marcus and Publius, for the 30 years which they existed (10 years pre-marine, 20 years post-) they were just a group formed solely so that they would not feel as if they were the only ones who felt that way.

And if I recall, the first Space Marines were not created from Primarchs, they were instead drawn from the regular soldiery. I believe the Primarchs were not created for another 100 years, correct? Something like that? So this group would have been established before the Primarchs, and never having been created under them, and protesting against them (silently) they would never have had to swear allegiance to them, especially if they were a forcibly secret group (as I have explained before.)

[--Lord_Panthro--]

Its all starting to come together a bit better but the other problem i have is that if they were around during the time of the legions... Well they would have to be one of the legions.

i think my_name_is_tudor has a fairly good idea there. Of course that means making them after the heresy but i personally think its more plausible then a force that was pre-primarchs.

 

Those are just my thoughts. keep us posted on how it goes. And as i said, its sounding good (alot better than it was any way) there are still just 1 or 2 things that need fixing/explaining.

 

 

Panthro

[CB319]

I am set on making them pre-primarch, though, again, not by much. I will try to make it work, and I found the camera. I will post pictures tomorrow, though most of them are not completely finished, only four of the eight that are finished have backpacks, and of the ones that are not finished, seven or so of the eleven remaining don't have backpacks, either, though some should arrive if not tomorrow, then monday.

[CB319]

To quote someone from another topic:

 

To quote Rogue Trader, on why it is not a good idea to say your DIY chapter is one of the missing first founding legions:

 

QUOTE

Part of the charm of the 40k Universe is that we don't know everything, we don't know what happened to the two missing legions, we don't even know why all records of the two legions were destroyed. That's good though, and GW knows better than any of us that if they told us every little detail, and didn't keep some mysteries, people would lose interest pretty quickly.

 

 

Leaving it ambiguous keeps it mysterious and leaves the door open for any number of wild, hare-braned conspiracy theories.  This juicy plot-hook has been tantalisingly dangling for well over a decade, and GW would be mad to actually clear it up.

 

I will send this over to Amicus as it seems more suited for this topic. Besides, it has been at least a month since they have had a missing legions thread to reply to. 

 

+Thwock! +

 

Why did the Inquisition decide not to destroy them 20,000 years ago? How was the original group able to break off? How did they survive the Heresy? Why is the Inquisition still hesitant to turn over the ancient decree?

 

This is not an excuse to not answer questions, I didn't originally want to answer them. I would prefer if people came up with their own theories. They will enrich the fluff.

 

Pictures tomorrow!

[ironloki]

Your completely true but sometimes you can push things too far. Why dont I have a chapter who is descended from the missing Primarchs and actually they killed Horus instead of the Emperor - Hard pressed but Probable (I simply blame the bad recording skills of the Imperium :rolleyes: )

 

There is some degree of flexibility but sometimes you have to have a think if something like that could really happen (Even although its an imaginery bounds there are small boundaries )

 

Either way I wish you good luck. If you manage to write it in a good and easily explained way you may pull it off otherwise your going to have a few questions.

 

Make sure you show us the final finished result :unsure:

[my_name_is_tudor]

the age thing is the real main issue.. I think youa re misunderstanding how different the galaxy was back then to how it is now.

 

When the Emperor conquered Terra there was no Imperial Army - as such - I expect Earth had armed forces, but they didn't work for the Emperor yet, the Emperor conquered earth using genetically altered techno warrior types, the first instance of a space-marine-like warrior, but still far from space marine. These guys were difficult to make and probably effectively lobotomised.

 

He reconquered the galaxy in the great crusade (I think..) which involved the original legions, sans primarchs, setting out to reconquer the rest of the galaxy - and find the primarchs. These space marines were organised into vast legions under direct control from the Emperor. The Emperor was a very ruthless man, he had to be. He understood the massive challenge for survivial mankind faced, and was willing to do anything to protect them and allow mankind to evolve into a truly psychic race. He declared the Thousand Sons heretics when they tryed to warn him of the Horus Heresy using their psychic powers. He didn't think, oh well, they are still loyal to me, they are actually warning me, I'll let it slide that they are disobeying my laws in an effort to make this Empire a better place. Instead he thought: Heretics! Disobeying my laws! You can all hang for that!! (or thereabouts) Basically what I am trying to say is that if this sort of amount of rebellion was around it would have been quashed earlier on, I can imagine it lasting a couple of thousand years, but not 20.

 

If you are intent on the age though, here is another route that you could take:

 

A planet somewhere in the galaxy has a Warrior sect whose Ethics dictate a life of compassion, etc etc. They are around for millenia, and become the ruling force on their planet. The Emperor eventually comes along and reconquers the planet. They are formed up into an Imperial Guard army, and join in with the crusade. Along the way they become more and more disenchanted with the Emperor's way of making war, but the stern eye of the space marines and the Emperor keep them in check. They survive (perhaps due to extensive dodging of their duties - which they might consider barbaric) until the heresy, in which they do play their part on the side of the Emperor. They perform some great honourable feat during the war, and after it is all over are rewarded for their loyalty with the honour of having their chapter chosen as the recruiting zone for a third (or even second if you want to play the 'but the Aporcrypha of Skaro says there were 23 UM 2nd founding chapters, and only 8 are named in the Apocrypha of Davio' card) founding chapter. As a special reward for whatever feat they performed in the war, the commander(s) of the Imperial Guard force are modified into space marines, and take command of the force. It is named for the warrior sect the Imperial guard original belonged to, and takes on their ethics. It becomes disenchanted with the Imperium as per my other lengthy post, and the same sorts of things happen leading it to become a refuge for wayward marines - as it were.

 

This gives you a decent claim to the age of the Organisation - in terms of the fact they have the same name, ethics, and originally the same chapter master.

[--Lord_Panthro--]

Damn Tudor... u got some great ideas that i'd use and this isnt even my army :rolleyes:

 

You either have a very brilliant mind.... ORRRR you have too much spare time :unsure:

 

 

 

Panthro

[my_name_is_tudor]

haha, perhaps a bit of both :rolleyes:

[--Lord_Panthro--]

:rolleyes: :unsure: :D

 

 

Ok sorry back on topic. CB319 i do believe we are in need of some updates so keep it coming.

 

 

Panthro

[CB319]

All right, one will be along shortly, and now that I have found the camera, some pictures will be coming, as well.

[CB319]

When the Emperor set out to conquer Terra, he drafted and brainwashed many people from his home town into joining his fledgling army. Several of them belonged to the Virtuous Heart warrior cult from Proxima Centauri, and were there on a visit.

The Virtuous Hearts believed in compassion and peace, but also realized the necessity of war in certain circumstances.

They formed their own group in his Army, the Virtuous Hands, and fought loyally beside him in the war for Terra. However, when the Great Crusades came, the Hands saw them as xenocidal. Imperial ships that tried to go to Proxima Centauri (where they had located themselves) were lost in freak navigational hazards, and transmissions containing calls to duty were lost in freak warp storms.

Once the Great Crusades were over, the Virtuous Hands suddenly were able to stay in constant communication with the rest of the galaxy. Transmissions were no longer lost in Warp Storms, and Ships were able to get to Proxima Centauri. However, the Hands were horrified by some of the genocidal acts committed regularly during that time, and started spreading subtle, cryptic messages to the troops in other legions, stating that any disaffected legionnares could come to the Virtuous Hands. During this time, the Hands had managed to avoid being formed into a legion, and became an adminstrative anomaly and were thus rarely, though occasionally, called into battle, particularly as it became known that they were almost immune to the effects of Chaos.

With the help of the rare disaffected librarian that came to the Hands, they were able to predict the coming of the Horus Heresy and were able to skirt much of this, though this was out of necessity, and as soon as they were equipped to provide a modicum of resistance, they were rushed to Terra just in time to prove invaluable in the taking and holding of the Lion's Gate Space Port. When the Horus Heresy is finished, seeing the genocide that will continue to take place, they relocate from Proxima Centauri to an undisclosed planet on the edge of the Galaxy, known only to be an abandoned human colony uninhabited since before the Age of Strife.

Then, about 50 years ago, members of the Hands visiting Proxima Centauri find and exterminate several Genestealer cults with minimal loss of human life. As a reward, they are finally officially recognized, and orgainized into a chapter. They step up spreading their message to the disaffected, and for the first time, start sending it to Guardsmen, who flock to the hands by the hundreds. They are organized into the Virtuous Guard. They also start recruiting directly from the local populace. They relocate back to Proxima Centauri. 50 years later, we arrive at the present, where the Hands are second in size only to the Black Templars, and the size of the Virtuous Guard is in the process of being recorded, but is currently known to be at least 5,000.

 

I took some pictures, too, of what is currently painted. They are a little fuzzy, but you should be able to make out the colors fair enough. I will make close-up pictures later. Don't worry about many of them not having backpacks, they should arrive today.

 

Wait a second. Where's the attachment button?

[ironloki]

The Virtuous Hearts believed in compassion and peace, but also realized the necessity of war in certain circumstances.

They formed their own group in his Army, the Virtuous Hands, and fought loyally beside him in the war for Terra. However, when the Great Crusades came, the Hands saw them as xenocidal

Why did they simply not like what happened during the Crusades?. Im sure the Emperor completely eradicated any opposition on Terra. Thousands of warlords and warriors must have died as his took Terra with bloody hands. (Why is killing loads of Humans acceptible but wiping out Xenos is not?) Where they deluded at first? (This may be the best option as the Emperor set out with no lies - he was going to obliterate anyone and anything which prevented the Human race uniting and being the best)

 

With the help of the rare disaffected librarian that came to the Hands

 

I doubt a librarian could predict the Heresy. Eldrad was a major psychic, Magnus was a major psychic and even Sanguinius had some foresight along with Night Haunter. Now if the last two never saw the Heresy that Clear how did a simple librarian?

 

they were rushed to Terra just in time to prove invaluable in the taking and holding of the Lion's Gate Space Port

 

I would have avoided them having a major role in the Defence of Terra. Also wasn't this already protected by Sanguinius and white scars (I forgot :unsure: )

 

Im still not totally set on your fluff but its comming together better :rolleyes:

[Zhivago]

Magnus was a major psychic and even Sanguinius had some foresight along with Night Haunter. Now if the last two never saw the Heresy that Clear how did a simple librarian?

 

Hmm, and I thought that Magnus tried to forewarn Emperor, who did not believe and sent puppies to vist Magnus. It does not make your point any less valid, just small detail.

[CB319]

Here is the front of my army.

Here is the back of my army.

Here is my unpainted army.

 

Backpacks are missing, they are coming in the mail.

 

Also, the humans that were on Terra, I believe, were the techno-barbarians, and they were probably evil and chaos-worshipping, as most barbarians in Fantasy are, I believe.

 

And about the Lions Gate. Nobody said that the White Scars didn't take it, but it doesn't specify exactly who held it. White Scars, for the most part, but why not a few Hands?

 

Also, that standard is not the real one, merely a placeholder until I can get a better one that looks just like it.

[my_name_is_tudor]

I'm not sure people were.. visiting earth when the Emperor reconquered it.. it had been cut off from the rest of the galaxy for ages hadn't it? I'm still not sure about this whole thing, why do they have to come from earth?

[CB319]

I didn't say they were from Earth. I said they were from Proxima Centauri. What do you think of the pictures?

[my_name_is_tudor]

Alright, why do they have to have been so close to the Emperor..

 

The colour scheme is nice, not sure about the japanese character but thats just personal taste I think. Where abouts did you get the old marine models from? That isn't why you want them so old is it?

[CB319]

No, that's not why. As a matter of fact, I got them, and a bunch of stuff even older than that, from GW Direct four weeks ago.

And what makes them so close to the Emperor? Where are you getting this from?

[my_name_is_tudor]

didn't you say they were visiting earth from Proxima Centauri when the Emperor decided to conquer earth? And that they were drafted up by him? Why not just have them on Proxima Centauri and only coming into contact with the Emperor when he reconquered the planet?