Run something through

[CB319]

Because that's not as interesting.

[my_name_is_tudor]

I think it is.. even if its not, at least its realistic. It's up to you I guess, the current background you have is better than the original, but there are still a lot of incosistencies. You don't seem to want to give way on any of these inconsistencies though, so there's not much more help I can give.

[CB319]

There are certain things that I am just not going to change. There are some that I will, and some that I won't. Tell me what you think the incosistencies are, and I will try to make them work.

[my_name_is_tudor]

okay then.

 

the age thing, while not being an inconsistency as such, is a bit of a bad side, given that the age of the Imperium is only 10,000 years old, so much has changed in the galaxy since the Emperor's conquest of Earth - basically it just doesnt seem to fit that such an organisation be so old - ask the othr frater for a better description of what I mean by this, I'm a bit tired at the moment so my words are fumbled.

 

the people being present on earth bit confuses me somewhat. The Earth was in a chaotic state when the Emperor reconquered it, and it was split off from the rest of the galaxy by terrible warp storms IIRC, so it doesn't quite figure that people would be visiting earth. It is also even less likely that they would be enlisted to the Emperor's cause. Can you imagine an organisation of compassionate warriors going along with a facist dictator bent on ruling the entire galaxy, and taking it with as much force as possible? Bascially I just don't see why they need to be on earth, some of the best fluff in 40k has nothing to do with earth, all the Primarchs grew up on far flung planets, and their fluff is possibly the best in the game, so why does your chapter have to have originated (in some way - I realise they are from proxima centauri) on earth? Why not just Proxima Centauri? Plus the Emperor took Earth using genetically engineered techno warriors, not people he'd recruited from his 'home town'.

 

Basically what I am saying is, the idea is a good one, it's just a shame to see it spoilt with some small points that don't actually attribute to the quality of the idea - merely detract from it.

 

If I were you I'd scrap the age (or maybe keep them old by using the idea I suggested earlier), and scrap the link to earth. With those things dropped its a very good idea, with them its just a bit, well.. silly I guess.

[CB319]

I'm pretty sure that the original Space Marines were not genetically engineered, and that the engineered ones didn't appear until after the conquest of Earth.

[ironloki]

Here's a question. Your group/organisation dissaproves of the Imperiums war conduct dont they? Why?

 

So they dissaprove of the mass genocides? If so what do they do all day? Do they actually fight the enemies of the Imperium? what are their attitudes to Chaos, Tau, orks, Eldar, Tyranids and Necrons? Do they avoid oblitering these guys as well?

 

Its just weird that a faction splits away from the Imperium due to its stance of warfare and dont do the same things in their own campaigns? Perhaps they dont like the mass innocents that get caught up in it like the Celestial Lions

 

I would just clarify the above bit some more.

 

Also I would change the story about the Librarian predicting the Heresy as its nigh on impossible :D

[CB319]

They, as you said, do not like the careless slaughtering of innocent people, a la Celestial Lions, and I'm pretty sure, though not entirely clear, that most of the aliens killed in the Great Crusade had done nothing to the Imperium. They tolerate most alien species, with the exception of the Dark Eldar, the Tyranids, the Necrons, and the Orks. They also fight the forces of Chaos. They are completely tolerant of the Tau, but will fight them if the Tau try to integrate them into the Greater Good.

As far as the Hands method of warfare, the main difference is that they only use long-range attacks (orbital bombardment, siege missiles, etc.) if they are sure that they will not hit large numbers of civilians.

They basically fight evil, and saw the barbarians on Earth as evil. The aliens that were slaughtered in the Great Crusade, they did not.

Hmm...will change the librarian bit. What could have driven them from Proxima Centauri to the rim of the Galaxy?

[Ferrata]

They seem to be bit wimpy/nice for marines. You cant fight in the 40k universe without hurting some innocent creature. Do they say "The person who made this bolter was not paid enough, I will not use it". Remeber the 40k universe is grim, sometimes you have to kill someone who doesnt deserve to die to get the job done. The sallies are probably one of the nicest chapters, but they will kill civilians if its a choice between the civilians and losing brothers.

 

I'm pretty sure, though not entirely clear, that most of the aliens killed in the Great Crusade had done nothing to the Imperium

 

Generally taken over human worlds. Used space which could be used for the increasing human population. Putting humans in slavery, taking profits. They generally did anti-imperium stuff so deserved to die ^_^

 

Ferrata

[ironloki]

Perhaps fighting on another front would put them a fair bit away if you want them out of the affairs for a minute.

 

I dont see how they could like one race and not the others. Marines dont differentiate. They are all Xenos scumbags and have been brainwashed to think so. If they do not worship the Emperor or yeild they are no more worthy than the Heretic and Heathen ^_^

[CB319]

I'm very sure that out of the at least a million Space Marines, there are some that don't see in black and white. They are the ones that that leave for the Virtuous Hands, so, logically, the Virtuous Hands are the only ones that see things in shades of gray.

[Ferrata]

I think its quite difficult for a space marine to see between shades of gray. They are bred for war, their only purpose is war. Without war, they are nothing. Then being brainwashed lots of times and drilled into them thats there "friend" and "foe".

 

Also, in time of war (which the whole universe is in) its pretty much kill or be killed. They will fight rather then back down. They are space marines, war is what they do

 

Ferrata

[++Brazen--Eagles++]

i agree with ferrata. Space Marines are made for one reason and one reason only. I doubt that they think of any thing other than "For the Imperium" or "the imperium must die"... Even though there are Thousands upon Thousands of marines i doubt that when they attack an enemy they are thinking "What about the innocents?"

 

Although your ideas are good there are definately things that need to be improved/explained a tad better.

 

 

++ Eagle Out ++

[CB319]

I never said that they would back down from a battle if they were being attacked.

And as far as brainwashing, what if they saw the light during battle (which is where they are bound to see it) and left immediately before they could brainwashed?

And if they can't see shades of gray, then what happened to the Celestial Lions?

[ironloki]

And if they can't see shades of gray, then what happened to the Celestial Lions?

That was because the marines had already cleansed the planet. They slaughtered all the heretics, the cancer was gone...but the inquisition blew it up to be sure.

 

On Armageddon the whole population was put into work camps to die and the Space wolvses IIRC didn't like this.

 

The reason for this dissaproval was that the Enemy was gone. Marines dont like killing citizens unless its necessary. The problem arises that your marines appear as too nice. As you said

 

They tolerate most alien species, with the exception of the Dark Eldar, the Tyranids, the Necrons, and the Orks. They also fight the forces of Chaos. They are completely tolerant of the Tau, but will fight them if the Tau try to integrate them into the Greater Good

 

Eldar and Tau are not good guys. If they had their way they would wipe out Humans as well, especially the Eldar. Marines will generally not tolerate other races.

 

I think you have a good idea to work with. I.e. they like to avoid unneccessary killing and perhaps prefer key strikes and openly criticise the Inquisition for their heavy manded approach. So drop the liking and tolerating Xenos and play more on the fact that they dislike the inquisition and many chapters heavy handed approach (Such as Marine Malevolent) That way you are going against the grain and dont appear as too nicey nicey :lol: - Would that fit better with you?

[CB319]

All right, will compose new fluff today.

[CB319]

Virtuous Hands

General Information:

The Virtuous Hands have no official organization, and the precise number of them is unknown. This is currently under investigation, but is estimated at around 2,000 Space Marines and around twice that number of Guardsmen in the Virtuous Guard, a subsection of the Hands.

They also have a very loose system of rank, though there are a few officially recognized positions.

There are Apothecaries, Commanders, and a few, though not very many, Chaplains, Techmarines, and Librarians. They also have another position, that of Historian.

Historians keep records of all that happens, and attempt to discover what happened in the past. They also keep a catalogue of all variants of standard equipment, armor, vehicles, and everything related.

Because of the Hands

[Ferrata]

There. With the exception of changes in wording, or any radical mistakes, this is the final version, and I'm not changing it.

 

So, the question arises, why did you post it? If your wanting someone to say "Well Done. Good Work", then your going have to take the bad with that. Yes, you should make your fluff for you, but if you make it public be prepared to take some constructive comments.

 

They also have a very loose system of rank, though there are a few officially recognized positions.

There are Apothecaries, Commanders, and a few, though not very many, Chaplains, Techmarines, and Librarians.

 

Maybe say apothacaries, chaplains, techmarines and librarians exsist in the normal numbers, but they are not ranks, they are roles. Being a techmarine does not make you better then a trooper, you just do a different job. Just like the guy witht he flamer is no more special then the bolter guy, he just carries the bolter.

 

How does a war machine work without a commander to take charge? If everyone is equal, then battles will be extremely hard to co-ordinate. If they make decisions together, then war is slow. So you need someone who is in charge.

 

Historians keep records of all that happens, and attempt to discover what happened in the past. They also keep a catalogue of all variants of standard equipment, armor, vehicles, and everything related.

Because of the Hands

[CB319]

I wouldn't have them fight other chapters. Something like that would get them hunted down and destroyed as soon as they are discovered. No, that's too extreme.

I will change the wording, they aren't ranks, they're roles.

I will make it more clear about what makes the Historians different from Librarians. The Historians, which I forgot to say, deal more with the technological aspects of history, and the librarians, I imagine, deal more with the historical aspect of history.

And when I said they are equal, they are not equal in decision-making power, just percieved value. Like in real life. The soldiers are just as valuable as the general, but we have the general make the decisions because he knows more than the soldier about war.

 

And why did I post it? To show off my creativity, and to provide a background for the pictures I will and have posted.

[Ferrata]

No, that's too extreme.

 

:blush: You just cant beat irony can you?

 

And when I said they are equal, they are not equal in decision-making power, just percieved value. Like in real life. The soldiers are just as valuable as the general, but we have the general make the decisions because he knows more than the soldier about war.

 

I get what you mean, so they're all equal but some are more equal. How does this transfer to comparing a marines life and a guardsmen life?

 

And why did I post it? To show off my creativity, and to provide a background for the pictures I will and have posted.

 

Aaaahhhh, for a pat on the back.

 

Ferrata

[CB319]

When did I compare a marine's life and a guardsmen's life? But, that also applies. Although the guardsmen I imagine have smaller rooms.

[Ferrata]

When did I compare a marine's life and a guardsmen's life? But, that also applies. Although the guardsmen I imagine have smaller rooms.

 

You didnt, it was a question. Basically what your saying is that a troopers life it just as valuable as a Commanders life. Now does this apply to guardsmen as well. Is a guardsmen life equal to that of a marines?

 

Ferrata

[CB319]

Yes, even if he is not as valuable in combat to his brother soldier, he is still just as valuable. I know it sounds a little romantic, but that's just how the Virtuous Hands are. The same people who deplore mass bombardments also think that everyone is just as valuable.

[ironloki]

How does a war machine work without a commander to take charge? If everyone is equal, then battles will be extremely hard to co-ordinate. If they make decisions together, then war is slow. So you need someone who is in charge.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*Cough* Iron hands have a grand council :blush: . I would change the name of historians as it doesn't seem 40k enough. Also its Librarians who help record history. Perhaps have it that its a rank within the Librarium - minor librarians who spend the time collecting data etc. I would historian to something more gothic.

[Ferrata]

*Cough* Iron hands have a grand council

 

But that council is made up of the leaders :blush: They tell the troopers what to do, but they dont out rank each other

 

Ferrata

[CB319]

Hmm...here's a better description of the Historians:

 

It is the job of the Historian to keep a complete physical catalogue of every piece of equipment ever used by the Emperor's forces. It is a tremendous task, and an entire planet has been donated to store all of the different equipment. They also attempt to make equipment that exists only in blueprints.

The Historians are closely linked to the librarians, and a good many Historians have psychic abilities.

Historians are distuinguishable on the battlefield by the gold trim on their backpacks. The oldest versions of the armor are also usually worn by Historians, though not all Historians wear old armor. They are never forced to go into battle, but instead volunteer to come so that they can learn how the equipment they study works under the actual conditions they are used in.

Despite their lack of experience, they are able fighters, and they have an intimate knowledge of the workings of their own and other's armor. Because of this, if they part of a squad, any person in their squad can re-roll an armor save. If they are part of the headquarters, than anyone withing 5" of them can re-roll an armor save.

 

Now to find point values...