Run something through

[ironloki]

I wouldn't create new rules - simply use and twist current rules i.e use the purity above all trait for the re-roll save :lol: . I still dont like the name historian though. Perhaps chronicler would seem better?

[CB319]

Yeah, I didn't think I would use those rules anyways. The only thing I would change, rather than twist, would just be calling Iron Halos Laurel Wreaths, simply because of the way that I paint them.

And I think Chronicler and Historian are just as good. If you can come up with something better, I'll use it, but I think both are just as good and I see no reason to change it.

[Einsatz]

I'm a little lost on the 20,000 year thing.

[CB319]

Wasn't it 20,000 years between the conquest of Terra and the present?

[++Brazen--Eagles++]

I dont know the exact number of years, but that would make some Marines :lol: ing old. i mean Ultra's live for about 500 i think (correct me if im wrong). and im sure that if they were in hiding, not many would have died in battle so that would make some marines unbeilivably(?) old. Especially if they only got a few marines each year or something (not really sure that many marines would 'defect' from their chapters per year!)

 

Apart from the age thing. Nice work. definately better then it was.

 

Thats it from me.

 

 

++ Eagle Out ++

[Ferrata]

To quote yourself

 

No, that's too extreme.

 

 

CB319 are you going to listen if I tell you your idea needs a lot of work to make much sense and be logical? Or shall I just save my type for somewhere else?

 

Ferrata

[Kastellan Kong]

Wasn't it 20,000 years between the conquest of Terra and the present?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No... It's more like 10 000 years... The Imperium wasn't very old when Horus turned to chaos...

[CB319]

Oh. Is that 20,000 years thing what was upsetting you guys about the age? It's not so much the age that I care about, I just want them to date from the Conquest of Terra.

[Ferrata]

I just want them to date from the Conquest of Terra.

 

Simple Question, Why? What makes this more intresting then a 3rd Founding Chapter?

 

Ferrata

[CB319]

Because it they are a third founding Chapter, then they will always have been a Chapter. I think it is more interesting if they were an ancient underground group that was granted Chaptership as a reward. I also want them to appear to have been some kind of silent observers and protesters that have been observing and protesting since the dawn of the Imperium (with the Conquest of Terra.) Don't try and think of them as having been a powerful force that existed for 10,000 years, think of them as an underground protest group that has existed for 10,000 years, founded by early soldiers. They then recruited soldiers (though still only in small numbers,) and were eventually granted Chaptership because of heroic action.

[Takeda-style]

Ok, I've read this for long enough - I'll post some criticism too.

 

The history of the Virtuous Hands starts during the conquest of Terra by the Emperor, approximately 20 years before the creation of the first Space Marines, when the Emperor

[Ivoracle]

I've been lurking for a while in this thread now, not really feeling I had anything useful to offer. Now that things are getting a little heated though, I thought I'd offer some perspective, based on my personal experience.

 

When I first stumbled across Bolter and Chainsword, and their Liber Astartes section, I had a DIY chapter all detailed up. I got excited by all the info here, and started reading the sticky threads, to see how the DIY veterans around here do things.

 

So, let's see... "DIY Don'ts", OK. Hmm... I did that. Uh-oh. And that. That too (*gulp*). Ack! Isn't any of my work good enough for these fluff zealots!?!

 

Ahem. Anyway, at first I didn't take it well. I mean, it's MY fluff, after all.

 

But then I realized, it's more than my fluff. It's my attempt to share something creative with other players, sort of like fan fiction. And making it mesh with the existing fluff would enable a wider audience to appreciate it, which in turn is more satisfying to me. So, I started reading all the fluff I could get my hands on, and thinking of how to change things.

 

The whole process turned out to be a lot of fun. It was an even bigger (and more satisfying) creative challenge to preserve the basic idea and theme of my chapter while changing the details to make it consistent with and plausible within GW's established fluff. It's still mine. It's still unique. Yet it also preserves the GW fluff, which is one of the things I love about the game anyway.

 

I think your idea has a lot of merit, and with some creative changes, it can fit in with GW's fluff nicely. Don't miss out on an opportunity to make something really cool because you're attached to details you've already written. If you allow yourself to let go of them, you might come up with something even better.

 

If not, more power to you. As always, good luck, and have fun.

[CB319]

For number one, I'm just using what I've read. If you have any suggestions on how to change this, say them, but they're going to date from the Conquest of Terra, and no sooner! I will take other suggestions, but I'm not changing that!

 

For number two, I ask, so that I could write it in, what kind of justifification would they have had to conquer Terra that they wouldn't have for killing harmless xenos? I need some sort of justification.

 

For number three, why couldn't they have gotten the Emperor's sanction? If they presented it as a crusade to take a planet on the edge of the galaxy, and provided some sort of reason (best left unknown in this fluff, don't want to know too much,) then I'm sure he would have allowed them.

 

For number four, of course the Hands arranged them! Don't the Dark Angels manage to do the same thing? Inquisitorial Investigations always get lost in warp storms, or black holes, or other things, whenever the Inquisition tries to inspect the Dark Angels.

 

For number five, they got called into battle by using people who knew beforehand the messages that would be sent, and arranged for messages calling them to 'just' battles to make it to the Hands.

 

For number six, I've been arguing over that with myself, and I will just leave them out of the Horus Heresy.

 

For number seven, what could a few people on a single planet have done to attract public attention? Any suggestions?

 

For number eight, why not?

 

And I'm trying to keep it in the theme of the universe, I really am, but the main tenet of the fluff is what people keep trying to get me to change,and I'm very sure that it fits into the universe, and I don't see what the problem is.

 

And, as has been said before, do we need to know the exact reason behind everything that happens? That makes it boring, and then the fluff is worth even less than if it had small holes.

[Ivoracle]

It seems like the biggest hurdle here is getting from a non-marine, underground movement to Marine Chapter status. I don't think there's any precident in GW's fluff for turning other organizations into Marine Chapters. Even the most zealously loyal Imperial Guard units don't get turned into a Marine Chapter, so it's a pretty big stretch to have conscientious objectors and AWOL Marines turned into a Chapter.

 

Personally, I've also had a hard time with any DIY chapter that claims to be built of the cast-offs/AWOLS/MIAs of other chapters. Chapter loyalty and identity is such a big part of Marine fluff. The indoctrination process is so extreme, reinforced every day by ritual and by the guidance of the Chapter Chaplains, that I just can't conceive of rank-and-file marines breaking with their chapter.

 

So, that's where I see issues. But I think there are other alternatives.

 

Here's one that I can think of. I don't necessarily suggest you use it, rather I offer it as example.

 

I can see the conscientious objectors running off during the Emperor's original crusade. It was a big, chaotic galaxy back then, and it would seem easy for a group of folks to slip into the shadows. I don't think you even need to explain why the Emperor had trouble calling them back or why he didn't go smash them. They were probably just presumed dead or lost in the warp. The Emperor had bigger fish to fry.

 

And so, they go about making their own little kingdom on the fringes, keeping out of the Imperial eye perhaps only by luck, or perhaps because they were cut off somehow.

 

So, how do you get from this to a Marine chapter? I think the Chapter has to come separately. Founded in the usual manner, by the High Lords, initially having no association with this lost colony. Perhaps this chapter finally explores that neck of the woods, and comes across this shadowy organization. Perhaps some strange series of events isolates the marine chapter with these guys in a hostile environment. Warp storms cut them off, maybe, forcing them to work together to defend against a common foe? Maybe they are cut off for so long that the Marines are forced to recruit from this populace? And slowly the ancient, "Virtuous Hand" philosophy seeps into their Marine teachings?

 

Then, your dramatic re-emergence of this Chapter doesn't need to be of such magnitude that a whole Chapter is created - but maybe just enough to get the High Lords to allow the Chapter to change it's name. No longer the Bloody Talons (or whatever), but now the "Virtuous Hands". And now the High Lords have no initial reason to suspect this Chapter, though there are signs that they may not be the most "loyal" chapter around. After all, they didn't anihlate that outpost like they were ordered to. And they seemed a bit to eager to ally with the Eldar against that Tyrranid incursion. Or whatever.

 

Of course, that's me making up stuff to satisfy my desires. You'd have to do something that satisfied you. That's just an example of where I see problems, and how I'd fix 'em. Maybe they're just not problems to you.

 

Go forth and... well, do what you want. ^_^

[Takeda-style]

CB319, I assume that the 1 to 8's refer to my post, I'll try to answer them as well as I can.

 

1 - They can't date from the conquest of terra in the way you insist. But (Ivoracle, you had a great idea in that post of yours, if you don't mind, I'll suggest it to CB here), You can say they were a brotherhood of normal soldiers formed during the conquests. This will mean they have little to no part in the conquest of terra, but they will date back from it if you really insist on that (IMHO, You really do not need to date from the conquest of terra, it adds absolutely nothing to your story).

 

2 - Maybe take the idea above, they were perhaps just soldiers on the sidelines, now have them being misguided in the beginning, and only after earth had been conquered, do they decide it is not worth so much bloodshed, and they start their own secret little cult.

 

3 - The emperor pretty much lead the crusade for the galaxy all by himself. Everything went by his orders. A group of warriors couldn't say "Hey, we want to go there and fight, can we?". Unless the emperor ordered it in the first place, it would not be done. This is all until the primarchs were found ofcourse.

 

4 - Not as often as you would imagine. Only those who come way to close to figuring out the secret would be "eliminated". This ofcourse, would not happen often at all, or the inquisition would get very suspicious. This many "unanswered calls" would have spiked the emperor's intrest. But it's a moot point, as their little crusade would not have happened anyway.

 

5 - So you mean that the chapter sort of shows up uninvited (but called in by special contacts) to help out when trouble plagues an area? This is quite ok. Gives them a little of a batman feel.

 

6 - Excellent.

 

7 - Nothing. The imperium does not work that way. Everything is about control in the imperium. If something unexpected shows up that is not supposed to be there, it will not be welcomed, nomatter what it does. It doesn't matter if they just showed up and saved terra from ultimate destruction, the moment everything calms down, they'll be under terminal investigation. I suggest you drop this part.

 

8 - Chapter status is Never granted. It is all about control. If the high lords did not order the creation of the chapter from scratch, they will not allow it. Add no7 to that.

 

 

I can understand you have not read much. Much fluff is hard to come by, and it takes a while to understand the world and mindset of the imperium. You do not know that much, so I suggest you really listen to the old-timers here on the board. Those are the ones who still have all the pieces of the huge fluff-puzzle that is 40k. When we on the board here say "You can't do that because that is not part of the 40k universe", then you'd better believe us. Ignorance is no excuse ^_^ .

 

One very important thing that you have to keep in mind. "People can believe the impossible, but never the improbable".

 

But I think Ivoracle hit on a genius idea there. Let me expand it:

 

How about thus, after earth has been taked by the emperor, a group of soldiers decide that they are not ok with it. They form a secret cult called "The virtuos hands" where they try to find others of similar conviction.

This bunch get drawn into the horus heresy, and at the height of the heresy, defect from the imperial army and escape to a relatively unknown planet. There, the cult grows and the teachings of the cult are passed on generation after generation. Eventually, because of some happenings, the high lords order the creation of a new chapter to guard an area, and by chance, the planet is chosen as the recruiting-ground of the new chapter.

Over time, the teachings of the virtuos hands have been fully assimilated into the chapter (since marine chapters frequently follow the customs and traditions of the planet their marines were all recruited from), and the chapter eventually changes its name to the virtuos hands (name-changing doesn't need the express permission of the high-lords. they could even claim to change the name in memory of a special event).

Et voila, you have a virtuos hands chapter with an IG regiment of the same desposition on the planet they have recruited from.

 

This is only a short idea, and if you want to use it, there are many things you can add to it. Thanks to Ivoracle for the idea!

[CB319]

That seems perfectly reasonable. And what do you think of the general idea of the chapter? Their values, oranization, etc?

[Takeda-style]

That seems perfectly reasonable. And what do you think of the general idea of the chapter? Their values, oranization, etc?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Personally, I think they are a little to "soft" for the 40k universe. That is, the idealistic side of them. Quite possible that they are ferocious fighters when they have to fight. Besides, if you want to go with the idea of the planet with VH's on it, they would have to be good fighters anyways to be elligable for recruitement.

 

But besides that, the idea of an batman-esque chapter trying to do the right thing and showing up when help is needed is a nice one. If you can keep it within 40k fluff, It would make for a quite unique chapter. Many of your ideas are good ones, you just have to adapt a bit.

 

 

Remeber that advice to change the name "historians" to "chroniclers"? That was a good suggestion. The idea of these guys hoarding information an knowlegde is an interesting one. I'd say good idea ^_^

[CB319]

I didn't say Chroniclers was a bad one. I just think it's just as good as Historian. And the Historians don't exactly hoard knowledge. Hmm...let me put it this way. Librarians catalogue history in books, and deal with what happened, and Historians/Chroniclers catalogue history in vaults, and deal with what was used.

 

And despite how much I complain, I do appreciate what you guys are doing to help me. I fell that you can't paint, or draw, or write anything without knowing or making a history for it. So, if I want to paint them in the best way possible, they have to have a plausible history.

[Takeda-style]

And despite how much I complain, I do appreciate what you guys are doing to help me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

^_^ That's all I needed to hear. Let the creative juices flow!

[CB319]

And hsve you looked at the pictures of them? And, to further re-inforce the ideas that some marines defect and leave for the Virtuous Hands (got something plausible for that,) I ordered a bunch of sculpted arm pads so I can have white chapter symbols on some soldiers. There are pictures earlier in the topic, and here are pictures of two unfinished Historians/Chroniclers:http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/906/mark10025zh.th.jpg

http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/1263/mark10017et.th.jpg

The first one needs some purity seals, and they both need backpacks.

Comments?

[Takeda-style]

Well, I like the crisp painting on the marines, It looks good, definatly table-top quality! And the use of a multi-melta, Two thumbs up ^_^ ;) , an unorthodox choice that gives your army character, I like that.

 

I also like those old-armor mini's and the Historians/Chroniclers models. They look very nice and look like perfectly part of the army, but they are quite characterfull themselves. I'm curious how you're going to get them old-style backpacks. Be sure to post more pics once you've painted more!

 

I'll be waiting around for fluff and more pics, keep on working! ;)

[Kastellan Kong]

But besides that, the idea of an batman-esque chapter trying to do the right thing and showing up when help is needed is a nice one. If you can keep it within 40k fluff, It would make for a quite unique chapter. Many of your ideas are good ones, you just have to adapt a bit.

 

Isn't there a chapter like that already? Legion of the Damned?

 

Maybe you should make this group a cult army, based on the Imperial Guard codex instead. A human underground movement would atleast stand a chanse of evading the inqisition for so long. If the Inqisition did find them, then they WOULD be terminated, especially if it was an unknown space marine formation.

Unsanctioned Chapter = Renegade = Excommunication = Termination... It's that simple...

 

 

Humanity in 40k isn't "nice" and I would never use the word "good" when describing the Imperium... It's a tuff as nails galaxy with no place for the weak... Humanity needs to be strong to survive...

Remember, in the grim darkness of the 41 Millenium there is only war! ;)

 

+EDIT+ I do like the look of your chapter though... ^_^

[Ivoracle]

As I see it, the Legion of the Damned is nothing like this. They come to the aid of Space Marines in trouble, but that's about all they do. They aren't out there waging war for the Imperium while trying not to commit too many attrocities in the process. I think there's some merit in this idea. A chapter whose focus is on protecting "humanity" more than on serving the Imperium. They can still be mean and viscious, without mercy on the battlefield, and maybe willing to make hard choices like sacrificing a small number of innocents to save a much larger number of innocents. Or some such.

 

I can see the allure of trying to blend the ultraviolence of the Marines with a more "virtuous" approach to war. The trick is to make it work, as opposed to making the marines come across weak and fluffy (but not good fluffy ^_^ ).

 

As for getting wiped out by the Inquisition, I think that's where it's important to have a more standard founding that somehow absorbs the virtuous hands teachings without much public hoopla. Then you've got a chapter that isn't on the Inquisition radar... yet. And that makes for an interesting backstory, because you have a Chapter that knows it could run afoul of the Inquisition, yet also has this somewhat unusual (for Marines) code they want to follow.

[CB319]

Okay...

Here is another Historian/Chronicler. He also is missing a backpack, and needs purity seals:http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/4117/mark27gk.th.jpg

I won't be able to do any painting until black paint arrives on thursday or friday, so I can't post any pictures until then. But when I'm done with my army, you can expect the rest of the devastators, including a magnetized sergeant, a tactical squad with four storm bolters and combat knives, four melta-bolters (one of them a Chronicler,) a prosthetic plasma rifle, a sergeant with Azrael's combi-weapon, an Iron Armor Chronicler, a Maximus Armor Chronicler, a Heresy Armor Chronicler, two Corvus Armor Chroniclers, an Errant Armor Chronicler, a magnetized Commander, an Emperor's Champion (in a slightly different color scheme, and with a long knife in the left hand,) possibly another Crusade Armor Chronicler, an old Corvus Armor with Sensor, and once I finish my fantasy elves, I will also do some bodyguards for the commander, a Maximus Armor Combat Squad, a sniper (using the leftover pieces from my Golden Demon entry,) and if I can borrow enough studded shoulder pads, a Heresy Armor Combat Squad.

 

Then I'll start making a useful army. Right now, it's just what I want to paint.

[xRagex]

Well I think its an interesting idea and if it works out it'll be pretty rad, but uh is there any reason your space marine there is standing on what appears to be a crayon colored picture of scottsman?