TheDarkApostle Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Calling them the 'Black Ships of the Inquisition' is actually incorrect Actually the 4'th 'Ed Rulebook notes them exactly as "the Black Ships of the Inquisition". TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaled100 Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Actually the 4'th 'Ed Rulebook notes them exactly as "the Black Ships of the Inquisition". True, and so do a few other sources however the confusion is one of the things covered in The Inquisition encyclopedia which states; Black Ships: Space vessels operated by the League of Black Ships... These ships often give passage to members of the Inquisition, and the term 'Black Ship' has by extension come to include the specialised starships directly controlled and operated by the Inquisition. As I said, it's not helped by the fact that the Inquisition tends to paint its ships black and so the confusion is understandable. The Sisters are Pariahs, yes? Maybe they were the founding members of the Culexus Temple of assassins? It's possible. However a more interesting question IMHO, is what happens to all of the male untouchables during the Great Crusade and Heresy? The assassin temples were founded while the Emperor was still alive, but they couldn't all have become assassins, so what did the rest do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Actually the 4'th 'Ed Rulebook notes them exactly as "the Black Ships of the Inquisition". True, and so do a few other sources however the confusion is one of the things covered in The Inquisition encyclopedia which states; Black Ships: Space vessels operated by the League of Black Ships... These ships often give passage to members of the Inquisition, and the term 'Black Ship' has by extension come to include the specialised starships directly controlled and operated by the Inquisition. As I said, it's not helped by the fact that the Inquisition tends to paint its ships black and so the confusion is understandable. The Sisters are Pariahs, yes? Maybe they were the founding members of the Culexus Temple of assassins? It's possible. However a more interesting question IMHO, is what happens to all of the male untouchables during the Great Crusade and Heresy? The assassin temples were founded while the Emperor was still alive, but they couldn't all have become assassins, so what did the rest do? Untouchables, much like Psykers have been noted to become more and more frequent the later since the Heresy we have come. Which makes it probable that there wasn't that many of them at the time. Also given their special nature and rarity it's very plausible that all and every of them found by the Imperium was hunted down and captured to be assimilated into either the Sisterhood or the Culexus Temple. TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaled100 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Actually, that seems extremely unlikely to me - simply being an untouchable isn't enough to be a Culexus assassin, they'd also have to be physically capable of being trained as a deadly assassin. The assassin temples are said to train their recruits from a very young age, but it's likely that many of the untocuhables found by the Imperium would be too old to train in that way. Perhaps female untouchables could be found a role in the Sisters of Silence - younger ones could be trained for combat duties, older ones and those physically unsuited to combat could work as support staff or whatever. That still leaves the males who are not suited to becoming assassins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Thing is, you DO notice pretty easily whether someone is an untouchable or not. TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaled100 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Thing is, you DO notice pretty easily whether someone is an untouchable or not.True, but only if you know what you're looking for which most people do not. Quite a few untouchables make it to adulthood with everyone hating them but not knowing why. I still don't see that the Imperium is likely to get to them at an early age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tauren Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Actually untouchables tend to only be "Found" young, because of their nature. If they occur in say a "hive" environment eventually the aura that they give off will drive them into being a hermit or they will be killed because they are not understood. This much has been said already. Only very specific people like Ciaphas Cain's protege can get away with it, because of other things, like his terrible smell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaled100 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Actually, quite a few untouchables survive into adulthood - however it will depend on the 'strength' of their aura - reaction to someone who rates a sigma is going to be very different to the reaction to someone who's right down at the omega end of the scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tauren Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Blanks have a rating? But they don't have any psychic powers... They have no reflection in the warp and thus exude negative warp energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaled100 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Yeah, it seems there are different degrees of energy they radiate. The effect a Culexus assassin has on someone is far more extreme than that someone like Bequin or Jurgen has - part of it is down to training and equipment, but I imagine that the Culexus temple takes on those towards the omega end of the Assignment scale. Basically the normal scale runs alpha to omega, and a normal human is rho or pi. Omicron and up are psykers - from omicron to kappa the psi-energy is only pretty, weak and the subject is unlikely to be aware of it. Iota and up indicates a manifest psi ability, and zeta and higher indicate a powerful psychic ability. It is believed that no human mind can sustain a rating above beta and stay sane. Below rho we're into the realm of the psi-inert, of which there are graduations just like with psykers. For example, an individual with a rating of upsilon might be affected by a severe psychic attack but would otherwise be inert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Tauren Posted Today, 03:44 PM Blanks have a rating? But they don't have any psychic powers... They have no reflection in the warp and thus exude negative warp energy. Yes - they have a minus rating. The effect a Culexus assassin has on someone is far more extreme than that someone like Bequin or Jurgen has - part of it is down to training and equipment, but I imagine that the Culexus temple takes on those towards the omega end of the Assignment scale. Yeah, the Animus Speculum helm has a lot to do with the Culexus Assassin's abilities. Normally most people just can't stand to be in the same room as one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyhawk Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I see that some of you are having a big "read & understand" problem. @ novel "The Flight of The Eisenstein" - Just finished it and besides being totally kick-ass it has a very special twist at the end... Remeber what is written about the origins of the Inquisition? The creation of the Ordos during the turmoil of the Horus Heresy? Well, to refresh: It is said that the whole big =I= started with three distinctive persona, one of wich was a woman. Exactly who that was will you learn at the end of the book. It's not about "forming grey knights" (ridiculous statement - how can you form the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus when the Ordos themselves do NOT yet exist?) Remeber - The Age of Imperium began as a time of light, knowledge and prosperity. There wasn't anything to hunt or exorcise because Humanity had not yet truly come in contact with the powers of the Immaterium. It's about the big thing - the creation of =I=. The book is marvelous. @ Sisters of Silence - Secret formation charged with the persecution of rogue psykers. As was said - associated with Adeptus Astra Telepathica, not with the =I=. All are soulless and form Black Ship crews. They stay silent because of vows they swear to their order. They communicate via gestures and some even know Astartes battle-sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaled100 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 It is said that the whole big =I= started with three distinctive persona, one of wich was a woman.I'm curious - are you referring to something in The Flight of the Eisenstein? Or to something written elsewhere? The Flight of the Eisenstein only tells part of the story - those three are not the only people Malcador recruits. He presents a dozen people (four humans and eight Astartes) to the Emperor as people he has collected in regard to the Emperor's orders to find men and women of an inquisitive nature. (It's not certain whether the three in The Flight of the Eisenstein were among those presented to the Emperor in person, they may have been.) Codex: Daemonhunters says that the Grey Knights were created and then attached to the Ordo Malleus which was in it's infancy soon after the Heresy. Garro and the other loyalists from the traitor legions may have been amongst the first Inquisitors, however they may have been involved in the creation of the Grey Knights - the exact role they played has not been specified anywhere. At the time of the Heresy the Sisters of Silence were a part of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. However since there is nothing detailing their activities after the Heresy there is speculation as to what happened to them. Some believe they still man the Blackships, others that they were disbanded or destroyed, or that they were incorporated into the Inquisition and ceased to exist as a seperate organisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I'm curious - are you referring to something in The Flight of the Eisenstein? Or to something written elsewhere? The Flight of the Eisenstein only tells part of the story - those three are not the only people Malcador recruits. He presents a dozen people (four humans and eight Astartes) to the Emperor as people he has collected in regard to the Emperor's orders to find men and women of an inquisitive nature. (It's not certain whether the three in The Flight of the Eisenstein were among those presented to the Emperor in person, they may have been.) He could be referring to Captain Garro, Iacton Qruze and Euphrati Keeler. Just to throw more stuff on the fire, the Thorian Sourcebook for Inquisitor says that originally two people founded the Inquisition out of an original group of four. Two were resurrectionists, believeing the Emperor had ascended to a higher plane. The other two joined the Senatorum Imperialis and founded the Inquisition to stop the efforts of the resurrectionists (Thorianism itself does not come about until M35). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaled100 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Just to throw more stuff on the fire, the Thorian Sourcebook for Inquisitor says that originally two people founded the Inquisition out of an original group of four.You're right, it does - I referred to both stories in the article I wrote for the Librarium and I think it's possible that both stories are true, or at least that they both tell part of the truth. I've often wondered whether the characters from the Thorian Sourcebook were amongst the four humans presented to the Emperor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyhawk Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 It is said that the whole big =I= started with three distinctive persona, one of wich was a woman.I'm curious - are you referring to something in The Flight of the Eisenstein? Or to something written elsewhere? The Flight of the Eisenstein only tells part of the story - those three are not the only people Malcador recruits. He presents a dozen people (four humans and eight Astartes) to the Emperor as people he has collected in regard to the Emperor's orders to find men and women of an inquisitive nature. (It's not certain whether the three in The Flight of the Eisenstein were among those presented to the Emperor in person, they may have been.) Yes. They may have been. That's the cherry on top at the end of the book. About my reference - I would point to the INQUISITOR rulebook although I may be off on the details. It's been a time since I read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaled100 Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 About my reference - I would point to the INQUISITOR rulebook although I may be off on the details.The short bit of fiction at the start of the Inquisitor rulebook features four people (not three), Promeus, Moriana and two who are unnamed. Their story is expanded in the Thorian Sourcebook that Grand Master Tyrak referred to - it's available free from the Inquisitor section of the GW site and is a good read for anyone who hasn't already seen it. It appears to present an alternate orgins for the Inquisition, seperate to that involving Maclador agthering people like Garro, Qruze and Keeler, but as I said before - I'm of the opinion that both stories could contain an element of the truth. I.e. the Emperor asked Malcador to start gathering people to form an organisation that would eventually become the Inquisition, but independantly of that, other servants of the Emperor decided such an organisation was necessary. So the early Inquisition comprised the people Malcador collected, the opponents of Promeus & Moriana, perhaps the early members of the Malleus, and maybe even the remaining Sisters of Silence - all combined to form the Holy Orders of the Emperor's Inquisition. It's just a theory, but it fits the evidence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyhawk Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 About my reference - I would point to the INQUISITOR rulebook although I may be off on the details.The short bit of fiction at the start of the Inquisitor rulebook features four people (not three), Promeus, Moriana and two who are unnamed. Their story is expanded in the Thorian Sourcebook that Grand Master Tyrak referred to - it's available free from the Inquisitor section of the GW site and is a good read for anyone who hasn't already seen it. It appears to present an alternate orgins for the Inquisition, seperate to that involving Maclador agthering people like Garro, Qruze and Keeler, but as I said before - I'm of the opinion that both stories could contain an element of the truth. I.e. the Emperor asked Malcador to start gathering people to form an organisation that would eventually become the Inquisition, but independantly of that, other servants of the Emperor decided such an organisation was necessary. So the early Inquisition comprised the people Malcador collected, the opponents of Promeus & Moriana, perhaps the early members of the Malleus, and maybe even the remaining Sisters of Silence - all combined to form the Holy Orders of the Emperor's Inquisition. It's just a theory, but it fits the evidence... I concur. It's a nice theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tauren Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Additionally I thought that the grey knights own gene-seed was engineered from that of the custodes, the emperor, and the marines that overcame the heresy and returned (death guard members I believe from the eisenstein book) to the loyal side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyhawk Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 and the marines that overcame the heresy and returned (death guard members I believe from the eisenstein book) to the loyal side. There isn't even any mention, nor proof of that in any publication or codex. Stop this nonsense, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 and the marines that overcame the heresy and returned (death guard members I believe from the eisenstein book) to the loyal side.There isn't even any mention, nor proof of that in any publication or codex. Stop this nonsense, please. Agreed. The only confirmed possibility of the DG doing anything in the Inquisition is as, er, Inquisitors. The only other possibilities are drawn from the box-out on Garro from the Index Astartes: Death Guard, which detail four possibilities as to his fate. These were all covered by various members of the Eisenstein 70 in Flight of the Eisenstein, like being locked up, joining the medicae corps, becoming the Lord of Flies. The only remaining one is the daemonhunting one. Grey Knights? No. It specifically states (as speculation) that they became "a force dedicated to thwarting the aims of Nurgle . . . clad in colours and flying the banners of the pre-Heresy Death Guard". If you like the indea of them becoming daemonhunters, well there you go, there is your possibility. None of this Grey Knight stuff exists even as speculation by GW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaled100 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Agreed. The only confirmed possibility of the DG doing anything in the Inquisition is as, er, Inquisitors.I wouldn't go so far as to say it's confirmed that they became Inquisitors - it's implied certainly, but no where does it state exactly what role Garro and the others played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I wouldn't go so far as to say it's confirmed that they became Inquisitors - it's implied certainly, but no where does it state exactly what role Garro and the others played. It's not confirmed, its a confirmed possibility. :D Like you said, we know for sure we can include them being Inquisitors as a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaled100 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Okay, I see what you mean. The eight Astartes presented to the Emperor (in Visions of Death) were psykers from the traitor legions who had stayed loyal to the Emperor and kept their psychic powers dormant. These eight are the ones most likely to be the seed from which the Grey Knight grew as Malcador says that their powers are 'most apt in combating the horrors that have recently emerged from the warp' and the Emperor replies that they do have a role to play in the future Imperium, although it will be veiled in secrecy. Although it doesn't come out and say that they will become the Grey Knights, it certainly implies that they will be daemon hunting Astartes and the Grey Knights are the most likely choice as they were founded soon after. As these eight are psykers and Garro and Qruze are not, I would suggest that they and Kendel were not amongst the dozen Malcador presents to the Emperor. This suggests that Garro's destiny lies elsewhere - perhaps as an early Inquisitor but there are plenty of other roles he could have played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 The second edition "Assassins" Codex is a good source for information in my opinion. In regards to the "blank rating" I find that piece of rubbish added by BL authors to be incredibily annoying (as far as I'm aware it isn't in any of the "canon" sources), especially in regards to Abnett's interpitation in which the "blanks" hardly seem to do anything (except make psykers extremely uncomfortable) and can apparently be "worn out" in the presence of a powerful psyker (yes because suddenly someone who is supposedly without a soul can sudden get one... BAH!). "The Culexus Assassin is special because they have, or appear to have no presence in the warp, there is just a void. They are, to all intents and purposes, soulless." - Second Edition Assassins Codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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