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The "How to beat..." anything thread!


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To add a little bit on Guard tactics. Kills of their HQ and their morale will swing pretty fast. I find that two tornado speeders are exellent at this sort of task. if your not in range after moving 12, then fly the hole 24! Lay low behinde cover and make sure that he cant shoot you, if your not in range after this... You can actylly pull this of with one speeder but it will be a little bit more risky.
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If you're unfamiliar with the Imperial Guard Codex, ASK YOUR OPPONENT what Doctrines he has, and ask him to explain them to you - many of them add additional points costs to the units, and some can be exploited.


Except, of course, that it's specifically in the rules that one needn't share a list. ;)


The best thing to do, rather than trying to--and let's face it, this is what it is--cheat up front is to, as previously mentioned, discuss the list and tactics over beers/sodas/herbal tea after the battle. One's opponent doesn't owe one an explanation of his strong/weak points before a battle. :unsure:

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And Id like to mention a Specific Doctrine combo of stupidity.

Iron Discipline and Close order drill+ conscripts/guardsmen and a commisar.

Despite being a template magnet that combo when combined with 50 or so conscripts defies logic on how much punishment it can take. Especially if the Commisar is kitted out (okay hes going to be duh!). It makes an almost ideal tarpit unit!

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Something to be aware of in Armoured Companies is that they can now take Doctrines for their tanks. These include things such as giving their tanks an equivalent to Sharpshooters (re-roll misses of 1 and now force a re-roll on an Ordnance scatter), various armour upgrades that emulate parts of the Necron Monolith 'Living Metal' rule, so be prepared to have melta weapons be neutered, and one that emulates the Chaos 'Mutated Hull' upgrade.


There are also the alternate organisation doctrines that can allow for sick lists (such as Basilisks as Troop choices :unsure: ).


One of the balancing acts the designers did was to enforce a ratio of Tanks Aces and Commanders to every number of Troop Tanks (for every two Troop Tanks, one Commander/Tank Ace must be taken). Make sure your opponent has stuck to this ratio, as the points for the Tank Ace/Commander will limit the points he can use for more stuff.


EDIT: Great thread idea, fanboy ;). Will try to help in this endevuor (sp?)

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Don't worry, I'll get to Space Marines Nidhogg, and it'll be a LONG post no doubt... :unsure:


Well, I see it differently than you, as something that 'defines' your list but isn't PART of your list; like asking to take a gander through an opponent's Codex. I more thought of an army list as the physical listing of all of your units, what they have, how many you have, NOT what they 'could have'.


But let's leave that point alone, (I'll agree to abide by your point of view for now) and it's time for a quick this-and-that on Lost and the Damned.


Lost and the Damned


If regular Chaos is hard to predict, these guys are -


Actually, pretty darned easy.


An LatD army will almost always follow the same general pattern: A huge core of Mutants, backed up by some Traitors with heavy weapons, and stiffened by a strong core of Chaos Space Marines and Traitor Imperial Guard tanks.


Mutants are almost always given either the Bloated upgrade (for a 4+ armour save, making them even more resilient), or the Leaping, Floating, or Winged upgrade (so that even their basic troops move as Calvary). In close combat, they rely on numbers, lots and lots of numbers, to drag down an enemy - but man, is that strategy effective for how cheap it is. Their Boss is given just enough points to buy a Power Fist, too - and an S6 power fist is plenty good enough. Traitors are usually used in small squads to give cheap access to heavy weapons - but note, too, that they can infiltrate, so that gives them the perfect opportunity to set up flanking shots into the sides of your vehicles.


The HQ choices for the LatD include one oddity: the 'solo' Aspiring Champion that can be allotted to lead other squads in the army. Most often, he'll be assigned to lead a Mutant legion, given the Mark of Chaos Undivided to keep them in the fight even longer, then given better close-combat weapons, using the hordes as a shield while he slices through your squads. Also note that he can have a Greater Daemon - hiding it inside a Mutant boss could lead to some, er, cruel effects.


Elites are Daemon packs, Chaos Possessed, and Big Mutants - of them, he's most likely to have Daemon Packs, with Icons for them inside his Mutant squads. Note one thing: ANY allied CSM squad with a mark, at all, even MoCU, is an Elites choice. don't let him slip the MoCU under your nose, it's a Mark of Chaos too... I had a problem with this once. ;)


Fast Attack includes Sentinels (which I've already sung about to a significant degree), Hellhounds (ditto), Roughriders (ditto), Chaos Hounds, and Daemon Beast packs such as Furies. If he wants more heavy weaponry to soften you up before assaulting you, he'll grab Sentinels and Hellhounds; if he wants even more cheap CC punch he'll go with Hounds, Daemon Packs, or even Roughriders. It depends on his style of play, but of them I'd be more willing to place my bets on Sentinels and Hellhounds. Also, he can have a squad of Raptors or Bikes from the Chaos codex; with the inherent cheapness of most of his army, he may balance it out by having one of these two choices for a shock value.


Heavy Support is Ordnance. Lots and lots of Ordnance. If he has cash and likes the idea, he may go for a squad of Chaos Spawn; but for the (money) price of a mere two Spawn he can buy a tank or Defiler that's sure to work every time. Expect to see a full loadout of Traitor Leman Russes, Basilisks, and Defilers.


Now, having covered how the LatD work, it's hard to say how to work AGAINST them. He'll want to come to grips with you as quickly as possible; don't let him! If you have to deploy against your table edge, so be it. Thin down his Mutants and other CC units as quickly as possible; it's reasonably safe to ignore his Traitors as their BS3 fails at all the wrong moments. Figure out what jobs any allied CSM have, and do your best to prevent that. Try to hunt down his Ordnance tanks before they can take too heavy a toll on your lines; note, too, that he isn't afraid of the Ordnance scattering badly and butchering his Mutants as long as it takes some Space Marines with them...


Necrons are next, stay tuned!

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As my Local Area's Tread Head I have to agree with your outlook on dealing with them


Metlaguns inside you squads (2 of em if you've got Cleanse and Purify)


A tactic I have found works wounders on Armour Heavy force's is a couple of INFILTRATING Dev OR Vet squads with an AT setup

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I don't think you can boil down every opponent's army to a winning suitation as presented here. Sure every army has its inherent weaknesses but to believe they will all be fielded as per some trusty equation is a bad decision. What you can always rely upon is what your army can do. This is why taking a balanced army is the best. Vanilla Space Marines are great but Chaos is still better in my opinion. There are a few notable exceptions, such as Blood Angels.
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I don't think you can boil down every opponent's army to a winning suitation as presented here. Sure every army has its inherent weaknesses but to believe they will all be fielded as per some trusty equation is a bad decision. What you can always rely upon is what your army can do. This is why taking a balanced army is the best. Vanilla Space Marines are great but Chaos is still better in my opinion. There are a few notable exceptions, such as Blood Angels.


But knowing what can happen is the first step to being prepared. Sure, anyone who slavishly follows a scripted plan deserves whatever he gets, but that doesn't make this kind of discussion useless. One just has to be conscious that, as we say IRL, the enemy always gets a vote. :unsure:

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Orange and Bloodsage, you're both right.


Orange, despite my grandiose ambitions (and near-claim to omniscience) I cannot possibly provide defined tactics for every situation. What I can do is advise beginners and veterans alike on what I'VE found armies capable of, what I consider to be their best units, and what they're likely to do -


And then wait for other people to add their own comments to this, many of which are incredibly useful.



What I hope to achieve with this thread is a starting-off point, a place for beginners to go and see what more experienced players consider the basics. Why do you think I started with those first three points before going into the army descriptions? Those are more important, more VITAL for every player to know than the fact that Webway Portals are dangerous or that Blood Angels get Furious Charge or even that Necron have a 3+ save.


With a firm grasp of the fundamentals, the world is your hard-shelled mollusc.


Now, onto Necrons!




Slow but steady wins the race...


Is the theme of most Necron warriors. That's not to say they're incapable of blinding speed - with the ability to teleport, with Destroyers and Scarabs able to move fast, and with Wraiths that ignore all terrain movement modifiers, Necrons have their speed abilities - but the most wildly successful Necron players rely upon large bricks of Necron Warriors, with only a few fancier units to give the army punch where it needs it.


Some generalities, before I get into the specifics -


Necron HATE close combat. Oh, sure, there are a couple of units that don't do badly for themselves in CC, but all in all a Necron player would rather have his Warriors shooting it out with you than fighting you in hand to hand. Sweeping advances, if there aren't any other Necron units close by, can wipe out entire squads of Warriors - this is not to be sneered at.


We'll Be Back! only comes into play if 1) there's another model of the same type within 6" (if you wipe out his Immortals, they can't come back if he has Warriors close by!), 2) If there's a Tomb Spyder within 12" and another model of the same type anywhere on the battlefield, and 3) If there's a Necron lord with a Resurrection orb within 6" of the model's unit. Also, he can bring ONE unit of Necrons through a Monolith's portal if they're within a certain amount of inches- however, that page of the Codex is damaged so I don't know what that is for sure. Any Necron on their sides will be brought back to life if he does that, no WBB! roll required. Power Weapons, Rending hits in close combat, and double strength weapon hits are automatic kills - the Monolith doesn't bring those back to life; the only thing that does is the Resurrection Orb.


Make SURE you know exactly how many models with the Necron rule there are on the table, so you know when he'll Phase Out - but also remember that he rolls WBB! on his own turns before he calculates Phase Out... I ripped off some poor n00bs by telling them their armies phased out the moment they dropped below 25%, because I didn't know their Codex that well at the time...:) Poor kid.


Focus your fire on models with the Necron rule to the exclusion of everything else - sure, that monolith may be threatening, but if I vaporize a single Warrior with a Lascannon shot, I consider that a much better tradeoff. Try to wipe out entire squads, as well - that goes against what I said earlier, but with the WBB! special rule, if you 'kill' an entire squad and some of them stand up again, they join other nearby units - and that unit counts as destroyed.


For Troops choices, he only has one - the Warrior. For only a few points more than a Marine, he gets WBB!, a better basic gun, but it's slower and has no real upgrade options to speak of. A Necron player will spend plenty of points on these guys, however, because numbers combined with toughness work out very well. You can expect to see two to four big blocks of Warriors in most successful armies.


His HQ choices, however, more than make up for any lack of versatility that the basic guys may have. I'll cover the C'tan in a separate paragraph; for now I'm just going to talk about the Necron Lord. There are three basic, popular types - the Teleporting Lord, the Destroyer Lord, and the Phalanx Lord.


A Teleporting Lord will have a Veil of Darkness so it can teleport around the battlefield, and will almost always be attached to a squad of Immortals. These guys will drop in behind your lines, on your flanks, wherever there's enough space for them to deep strike, and rain potshots into your army. the Teleporting Lord will generally keep the Staff of Light so as to have shooting and close combat abilities. Resurrection Orbs are a possibility, but not a guaranteed thing, to have on a teleporting lord.


A Destroyer Lord will have a Destroyer Body (making him T6), and his main objective is to get into hand-to-hand with his Warscythe. He may be supported by a squad of Destroyers as he charges forward, or he may instead be a secondary Lord that swoops around the edges of a slower army, guarding its flanks and pitching in where close-combat is needed.


A Phalanx Lord is the basic standard of a Necron Army. Given a Resurrection Orb, an escort of 60 Warriors, flanked by some Tomb Spyders, these guys are just plain nasty. They're just a part of the army - but man, is it ever a mean army...


A Necron army will usually run two Lords in 1500+ games, just to add to the close-combat capability and versatility.


For Elites, Pariahs are (generally) considered a very expensive joke. If you see any, ignore them in favor of units that actually HAVE the Necron rule. Immortals, on the other hand, are quite nasty. with T5 and an even better gun than the regular Warrior, Immortals are a cold addition to any Lord's retinue. They are quite expensive, however - a disadvantage in a low model-count army such as this one. Flayed Ones are a common choice as well. With the ability to Infiltrate, better A and I attributes than the average Warrior, and the ability to have Disruption Fields for easier tank-hunting, these guys are quite liked. Plus, they cost the same as a regular Warrior - quite a benefit.


Fast Attack is a vital selection to most Necron armies - after all, it makes up for the plodding speed of their Warriors! Most Necron players will have bases of Scarabs, but whether they USE those as Fast Attack choices is another matter entirely. Scarabs are cheap (an asset to this army), move fast, and like all bases are great at tying up enemies, but they don't have the Necron rule and don't count as scoring units. Destroyers are used for tank hunting and heavy weapons support- and aren't to be sneered at by any means. With the Gauss guns, they don't need flanking shots to brew up tanks, and they have lots of shots... Wraiths are more of a 'odd-man-out' choice - I think they're my favorite unit fluffwise and ruleswise, but are rarely used for some reason. They're close-combat specialists, and with an invul save of 3+, they're very difficult to take down. Still, with only one wound and T4, be persistent and they'll die eventually.


Tomb Spyders are important to a Phalanx army for their repairing abilities, provide some much-needed close combat punch with their Monstrous Creatureness, and can 'poop' Scarab swarms that will form a unit with the Spyder. *poop!* :lol: For all of that, they don't seem to get much respect; also, they don't benefit from the Necron rule. Heavy Destroyers are, in my mind, a superfluous choice; they're great at tank hunting with a mobile S9 shot, but all Necron guns autoglance on a 6 to hit anyway. Still, some people like them, and I guess that I can't fault them for that.


Monoliths are the Heavy Support of choice for most Necron players, and the bane of most non-Necron players, for understandable reasons. AV14 on all sides, with that cursed Living Metal rule, able to bring Necrons on their sides back to life by teleporting them, with an AP3 Ordnance blast, and tons of regular guns - all of it adds up to a guy's worst nightmare. :yuck: So, what's my sage advice on these evil, evil monstrousities?


Ignore them.


No, seriously, ignore them. If you kill a Necron Warrior with a multimelta hit, it's GONE, toast, and out of your way. If you fail to get a glancing hit on a Monolith with that same Multi-Melta, then you've just wasted your time. Focus fire on the models with the Necron special rule - even IF he uses the Monolith to teleport some of them and bring them back to life, that means he can't use his Ordnance Blast weapon! It's almost as good as getting a glancing hit! In a game against Necron, the only victory points you count is for his entire army after it Phases out. Besides, Monoliths are EXPENSIVE, don't have the Necron rule, and that counts on your side, not theirs.


I know it's going to sound crazy, but I have the same advice to offer regarding his C'tan. For the price of a Nightbringer, he could have 20 more Necron Warriors - and I'll tell you which one is likely to be FAR more effective on the battlefield, and keep him going longer. Among serious players, the C'tan is an intimidation factor - he wants to panic you into doing something stupid. Among newbs, it's seen as a cheap and quick alternative to buying and painting those 20 Warriors - be sure to teach him the error of his ways!


If you absolutely HAVE to kill C'tan, I recommend Scouts with Sniper Rifles - he'll always have the 4+ save anyway, you might as well take the gawdlike creatures down with one of the 'umblest units around. Plenty of shots, plenty of wounds - and if you have sniper rifles in a generic SM list, then there ain't much else they'll be able to shoot at in a Necron army.



Next up - Orks! (I refuse to alphabetize them as Space Orks, that name is just way too dorky. ^_^)

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Another note: any unit brought through the Monolith's portal if it is within 18 inches of the 'lith will not get back up automatically. The player gets another chance to roll WBB instead, which is almost the same thing. Thus a squad of Immortals with a standard Veil/Orb Lord and within 18 inches of a Monolith becomes like their namesake.


I've also never seen a competitive Necron list use Flayed Ones. I'd prepare more for lots of regular and heavy destroyers, a Monolith or two, a Lord with his Immortal buddies, and lots of Warriors in 1500+ games. Wraiths can make a good counter-assault unit due to their strength and initiative, but their lack of power weapons and more than 1 wound I believe makes them a liability in most Necron players' eyes.

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Another note: any unit brought through the Monolith's portal if it is within 18 inches of the 'lith will not get back up automatically. The player gets another chance to roll WBB instead, which is almost the same thing. Thus a squad of Immortals with a standard Veil/Orb Lord and within 18 inches of a Monolith becomes like their namesake.


Oh, one further thing to mention - with all the teleporting going on, a Necron player can only teleport a given unit ONCE a turn - no Veil of Darknessing a unit to within 18" of a Monolith and then bringing them in through the portal, for example...

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Gotta add this as an ex player and current nemisis of Eldar (Alaitoc and Biel Tan specifically). Tiny pedantic point tho- so apologies:P


Banshees vs Scorps (Threat assesment)


Since this is a pwr armour forum I dont wanna go into too much detail- but Scorpions are as big a threat- if not bigger than Banshees. Scorps have str4, mandiblasters and Sv. 3+.


When either of them get the charge they will be taking out around the same amount of men. (factoring in the exarchs).


Banshees will rely on a devastating suicide attack that will charge us and hope to take a bunch of marines with them (around 5-7 dying on the charge)- they will do big damage on the charge. The problem is- they will not have the staying power to last the following rounds. The scorpions still maintain their efficiency well after the first round.

And have the potential to take out more than just one squad.

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No problem for bringing Banshees versus Scorpions up, I should have gone into more detail about it myself. It's an important thing to mention, and one that a lot of players forget or don't know to begin with, in face of the "Oooh, the Banshees are the biggest threat!"


It's always been a bit borderline to discuss other armies on the B&C, but the safe line to toe is talking about OPPOSING non-power armour armies.


And speaking of Eldar... Sorry about the length of time it took me to get to the Orks section, but I absolutely HAD to finish my Avatar. Man, too bad this forum is strictly power-armour only, otherwise I'd post him. Is the fact that he's just ripped apart a Defiler power-armour enough related?


Meh, maybe I'll sneak him into the set of pics I take of my it's-not-pink-it's-light-red Raptors... :lol:


So. Onto business.



Space Orks


All jokes about there being "A Fungus Among Us" aside, Orks are nasty SOABs. Positively brutal in close-combat and with a surprising amount of effective shooting for those who are only familiar with the stereotype, an Ork army can still spring surprises on the unwary.


First of all, I'll cover a 'codex' army, than the Speed Freeks list.


Before I go in-depth on potential enemy forces, there is an overall thing to speak on: Mob sizes.


An Ork mob's effectiveness is directly related to how large it is. Essentially, they get a second Leadership test if they fail their first, based off of how many Orks are still in the mob - if there are more than 12 of them, they never fail Leadership checks! Coupled with this is their ability to double their Initiative on the charge - off of a similar 'Mob Check' number. Plus, if any of their squads DO fail an Ld check and start falling back, they may be able to join up with any Mobs that might be in their line of retreat - many Ork bosses keep a Mob in their rear line to act as a "Kowerd Ketcher." I know I do.


This all means that (once again!) it's more effective to gut several different mobs than try to wipe out a single one. Of special value is his "Kowerd Ketcher" mob if he has one - if you can swoop around with some Landspeeders to send it fleeing, you'll remove a painful late-game threat. The mob danger zone is about 8-10 members apiece; if you can get a mob to that point, it'll start failing Mob checks.


The Orks have 6 different Troops choices - how's that for variety? However, you're probably not going to see either Stikk Bommas or Shoota Boyz; for various reasons those particular units are pretty wretched. Slugga Boyz are the unit most people are familiar with - every Ork has a slugga and a Choppa, which every Marine fears. If these guys get in with your Marines, expect to get hurt. Also, they can have up to three heavier weapons in the mob - Burnas are favored because they act as straight-up power weapons in close combat, but Big Shootas and Rokkit Launchas are sometimes included for those who enjoy putting out some dakka while moving forward. Burna Boyz aren't very popular, but with the ability to stick five flamers in a single mob that can affect vehicles or act as power weapons, some people get a mob as surprise value. Tankbusta Boyz are for those who have faith in Ork shooting - with the Tank Hunters special ability and bombz that can crack even a Land Raider open, these small mobs can take a big toll on enemy vehicles. Grotz are beloved not only for comedic opportunites, but because they act as mobile 5+ cover for foot units. Great for the footslogging type, you know?


In every Ork army, you're going to see a Warboss. It's mandatory. And they're monsters in CC. Most players use a Warboss mounted in a Trukk and escorted by plenty of powerful Nobz and charge him forward as quickly as they can, trusting to their resilience and killiness to keep them going until the rest of the army catches up. Not a lot of players use a second HQ - Big Meks are inefficient, and Painbosses with Cyborks are difficult to convert. I should know, I've got a full squad of 'em. :)


Elites are where bosses begin to get unpredictable. Not many use Stormboyz - Trukk Boyz are cheaper - and even fewer use Kommandos. Infiltrate simply doesn't help an Ork army out too much, especially not in the small mob size that you get with the Kommandos. 'Ard Boyz are popular because of the 4+ Armour save that each Ork gets - for only a few more points, you get an Ork that's much more survivable than the typical Slugga Boy. Skarboyz are also well-liked; they have S4 as standard instead of a mere S3 (which makes their Choppas that much more dangerous), but they're no more durable than a standard Ork. An unusual (but dangerous!) choice is a mob of Flash Gits - one upgrade they can get is making all of their Rapid Fire guns AP3 if they're within 12" - and AP2 if they're within 6". Oh, sure, they have the Gets Hot! rule if they do that, but who cares if you fry a few Orks, as long as you kill some Marines?


Fast Attack is supremely important to Ork armies, whether he's mostly a footslogger or just this side of Speed Freeks. Trukk Boyz are used generally to flank a Warboss in a Trukk himself - three squads of these guys, along with a Boss, crashing into your lines could crimp anyone's day. Warbuggies are used if he wants some shootiness in his army - most of their guns are twin-linked, and statistically, a twinlinked BS2 equals a regular BS3. Most will use Buggies for tank-hunting. With their speed, they can move around your flanks and nail your side or rear armour with Rokkits quite easily. Plus, they're cheap and expendable. Warbikes are also dangerous - they also have twin-linked guns, AND they can strike first if they charge by riding into the battle with guns blazing, not to mention the fact that they get a 5+ cover save and grant the same save to any units behind them...


Heavy Support is defined by what kind of army he has. Big Gunz batteries and Lootas are rarely used - with that lousy BS2, they just don't hit reliably enough. About the only time I've seen Lootas used is with Sniper Rifles - but since even Sniper Rifles hit on a mere 4+ in an Ork's hands, they're not popular options. Ork Dreadnoughts and Killa Kanz, however, ARE popular, especially with footslogging forces. Kans are more popular because they come in squads and are cheap - but Dreddies can be very decent at shooting, with the ability to have one gun twinlinked, a second gun, and still keep a DCCW. Battlewagons are good if you have a big footslogging squad that you want to keep up with your faster Trukks - plus, they can pour out a quite sick amount of shootiness. After all, if even Orks put enough lead into the air, it'll hit something, right? Looted Vehicles are the ultimate in Ork shootiness - almost every army will Loot a Leman Russ or Basilisk to get around that peskily bad BS AND have an Ordnance blast on top of that.


Leman Russ or Basilisk? The other tanks are hardly worth mentioning to an Ork player, so you shouldn't worry much about them either. Basilisks are cheaper - but Leman Russes are more durable. An FYI for the beginning player, too - an Ork Boss is supposed to roll a d6 at the start of his every turn to see if some dumb Ork moves the tank forward when he wasn't supposed to. Kinda like Blood Rage for Chaos Dreads, but few people know about it any more so some unscrupulous Ork players kind of... pass it aside.


Now, for a word on Ork vehicles and potential upgrades. For the points cost involved, Orks have the best upgrades in the game, bar none. A 6+ invulnerable save for vehicles? An extra inch of movement? Tank Shocking with regular Trukks? Turning an immobilized (i.e., nonscoring) unit into a mobile one? Equipping your cheap Trukks with the ability to attack other vehicles? All possible, and in fact even likely.


Up to this point, what I've covered has just been a force chosen out of the Ork Kodex - er, Codex. *cough* :o These days, Speed Freeks are much more popular, for a number of reasons. They cut out a lot of the regular list's deadweight (Stikkbommas, Big Gunz, Slugga Boyz, Kommandos) and replace it with a throttle-full-forward, red-wunz-go-fasta, assaulting-you-with-everything-by-the-second-turn thrillride. WAAAGGGH!!! :yuck:


*ahem* :o Sorry folks, I get enthusiastic sometimes when I talk about Orks. They're fun. OK, back to business.


Instead of mobbing up with other Ork squads, a Speed Freek Ork heads for the nearest empty transport. Yes, this means they can go to a different transport than the one that they started in. This makes them (in some ways) more vulnerable - if you can put a Landspeeder or some other unit between the Orks and the nearest transport, you can easily crossfire them.


Additions to the list to watch out for are the squad of Nobz on warbikes, oh, and yes, the mandatory Warboss CAN be mounted on a Bike in accordance with the latest FAQ. These guys are fast and tough, but because their unit size is small, at least you don't have to worry about them having double Initiative when they charge - too much.


Troops choices for a Speed Freeks army are Buggies, Warbikes, Trukk Boyz, Tankbustas, and Burna Boyz, as discussed above - note that the last two choices have to be given a trukk or mounted in a battlewagon. Elites are Stormboyz, 'Ardboyz, and Skarboyz - those last two also have to be in a trukk or wagon.


Fast Attack is where things start to get wild again. Outriders are basically Warbikes, but with the Scouts special rule. Did I say second-turn assault? With Outriders, it's the FIRST turn. They're expensive, but many Speed Freeks players consider it worthwhile just to have you tied up and distracted for that vital first turn while he moves the rest of his army up. A Fighter-Bommerz Raid is cheap and popular; any chance that he might Pin an important squad of yours for that first turn - well, Space Marines don't have to worry TOO much with their 3+ armour save, but it's still something to be aware of. If any of your squads have transports, have them start the game inside to minimize casualties.


Death Koptas are - well, kind of cool, but not very effective. They come in very small mobs, have only the same guns as a regular Warbike, and while they do count as Jetbikes and have a 4+ armour save, both of the above reasons limit their useage.


Heavy Support includes both Looted Vehicles and Battlewagons, and removes the 0-1 limit that's in the basic list - which makes most Ork players drool and rub their hands together. You can expect one, and possibly even two, Looted tanks with Ordnance gunz, and if he chooses a mob of 'Ardboyz or Skarboyz, he'll need a Battlewagon to carry them in - brew it up and he could lose a lot of points. Guntrukks are, in my opinion, unlikely, but if he DOES have them, they'll be given Zzap guns - these hit automatically and have a random (but usually high) Strength and vehicle AP, so they're pretty good at tank hunting - but they're no more durable than regular trukks, and a lot more expensive.



Now, for some highlights on how to fight them. Anti-mob weapons like Flamers are ideal, of course, but in a typical tournament are you likely to take Flamers over plasma guns? Against a horde-style army, you should have several turns to shoot them - as I mentioned, try to take down the "Kowerd Ketchers" with Landspeeders while forcing his mobz into the danger zone of only 8-10 in each. If he's a Killa Kan man, try to use guns like Autocannons so that you paralyze as many of them as you can. For Dreads, just treat it like you would any army's Dread: feed it a krak or two and watch it choke.


If he's running a mixed force, where some elements rush forward while others come up to sweep through the remnants, try to set up most of your army so that he only has narrow avenues of approach, or has to go through difficult terrain to get to you - one of the worst defeats that's ever been handed to me was when a guy set up terrain so that there were only two paths to him, and then he blew up a badly-placed Trukk, essentially blocking one of them - then moved a Rhino to block the other. If you don't have that kind of luxury, try to create your OWN fire lanes with well-placed Rhinos!


For Speed Freeks, where his entire army is hell-for-rubber bent on getting to grips with you as quickly as possible, the above advice may work well. You generally don't have to worry all that much about a Speed Freeks army doubling its Initiative on the charge, thankfully. Oh, sure, they MAY do it, but it's not a guaranteed thing like when a mob of 28 Boyz crashes into your lines.



Any other thoughts on Orks?


Next up... well, bless my chitlins, it's Space Marines, the most common foe! That'll probably take me a couple of posts, and I'll most likely get to that tomorrow. ^_^ see ya then!

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well heres my tactical advice and its a pretty broad marine throw out.


deployment is key, remember that marines come in limited numbers, that means opponents will most likely be able to infiltrate near your side of the board, anticipate unit movements


when tanks are deployed the cross fire tactic is fantastic to negate enemy tank cover, like shooting across the board, take advantage of BS 4.


set unit/target threat ratings, is an ork dreadnaught whos killing a marine or 2 a turn while walking more threatening then a squad of boys rushing to tie down your lines. the answer is no. if your playing a shooty army ignore the bigger things and shoot the fast things.


if your playing a combat marine list, you tend to be lacking fire power, but use what you have and take apart splash damage. usually i avoid shooting infantry because thats what the army is there to take apart let them do thier job ya know?


when army building remember that as great as flashy units look dreads/terminators, they cost a ton more then the average marine and at times could do LESS then a squad of marines can, consider what each unit means to your army. and how much damage you can take/give out.


Akira Cho

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:P Noooooo!!!


Quick, Kill me!!!!


oh wait, on second thought, DON'T!!!! ;)







Oh what am I talking about? I'm Chaos already! :D



Which reminds me... shouldn't we need more discussions on the many different types of lists chaos can field?

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I like alphabetical order, though. It seems more organised. :o


Oh, and one further note on Orks, before I get to Marines - Terminators are useless. In fact, worse than useless. Choppas kill them as easily as normal Marines, for almost three times the points spent? That's not good!


Now, for your friend and mine, Space Marines! I think I'll do this in two posts; the first will deal with an army chosen only from the Codex; the second post will deal with the 'sub-Codexes', Dark Angels, 13th Company, etcetera...



First, a disclaimer: I know that most of you play Space Marines, and that many of you hold strong, er, opinions on what's effective, what's not, what's fluffy, what's a load of cheeze. This is based from what I've seen over the past seven (eight) years of 3rd Edition, and the past year of fourth. If you disagree, do so politely, OK?



Space Marines


Let's face it: seven times out of ten, you'll be facing off with another Space Marine army. It's the nature of this game's promotion - if we went by the fluff, seven out of ten players would be using Ork and Imperial Guard armies. In fact, if you're on this forum ,you're (nominally) supposed to be using a power armour army yourself! ;)


Thus, an understanding of their weaknesses and strengths is vital for both using and playing against them. (in point of fact, my planning for THIS entry is why I didn't cover troops selections more specificially in my previous post! I would have looked dumb doing that!) Knowing how your enemy views your army is as valuable as knowing your army yourself; one of the first things you should do after making an army list is set it out on the table in front of you in all its glory and say, "How would I decimate this army?"


First of all, a broad, sweeping statement:


In the grim darkness of the future, Space Marines are cheap, but their toys aren't.


This is a very important statement to remember. With all the wonderful options presenting themselves in the Codex, it's all too easy to load up on 600-point Command Squads, Elite Devastator squads with Lascannons and Tank Hunters, Land Raider Crusaders, Apothecaries as Veteran Sergeants, and lose sight of the fact that you only have thirty models on the table! If you see someone with "Toy Syndrome", disabuse him of its value. If you're taking Marines, try to keep yourself from succumbing to its siren urge.


And They Shall Know No Fear... is not only a good rule but a great name, no? One should remember, however, that ATSKNF does NOT allow a squad to regroup if there's an enemy within 6" of it - if you want to keep that broken command squad with the 250 points in characters running, just have some units within 6".


Drop Pods are, in my mind, something to be a dick about. If someone wants to use a drop pod army, they'd better have SOMETHING to represent it - I don't care if it's a litre jug of milk with fins attached! They're too good, too useful, to be polite about someone saying, "Oh, this CD is my drop pod..." unless it's just a friendly game. But when three people show up to a tournament with drop pod armies, and none of them have a single 'pod, and they have the nerve to complain... :D I'll discuss Drop Pods for each unit.


Tactical squads are usually specialized for a single job, as Wolfsrage (and by proxy, Ironloki), said; either a big squad with a Vet Sarge and a power fist, or a small squad with shootiness. If he shelters his small squads within bigger squads, then block his LOS by charging the close combat squad. If he doesn't, try to pick off the smaller squads with fast-moving close combat specialists and thin out his bigger squads to a safe point with shooting - the power fist won't matter much if there aren't enough of his battle brothers left to throw themselves in front of other casualties...


Rhinos and Razorbacks are (rarely) used, but watch for them. A squad jumping out of a Rhino and dishing out some rapid-fire death is a tactic that's growing in popularity - especially when taking the Cleanse and Purify trait. If he has Razorbacks, it's probably to give a static squad some extra firepower. He'll likely have tons of vehicles on the table, if he's using Rhinos - which means you need to figure out what the bigger priorities are and take care of them. Crippling his Rhinos can go a long way towards impairing his mobility... Drop Pod squads are usually max-sized and equipped with Cleanse and Purify (again) for maximum short-range death. The more points-spendy will have a veteran inside the squad to inflict some damage when they get charged - beware of that.


Scouts are used in one of two ways - cheap close-combatants or long-range snipers. There are oddities (shotgun scouts do look cool!), but effective squads fall into one of these two extremes. Expect to see variations much like the above listing for Tactical squads, with the added fillip that Scouts infiltrate, meaning they can set up after seeing what you have. use much the same tactics, but remember that Scouts melt like snow under heavy bolter fire. Snipers aren't too fearsome against other Space Marines, but watch out for the Missile Launcher scouts - those guys can put kraks into the sides of a Predator like nobody's business.


Here's a harsh statement that not many Marine players will WANT to believe, but it's true: Marine characters are not that good at close combat when stacked up against almost any other HQ choice. With a mere S4 unless you want to waste that I5, few good offensive upgrades, and the best toys are all really expensive, the truth is that they're just mediocre. Not BAD, just mediocre - by themselves. And the Command Squad option, while seemingly attractive, is a rapid mire of a points sink - it's all too easy to find yourself with 400 points bound up in just one Marine squad that dies just as easy as anything else. Remember the lesson on scoring units I talked about? Many of the upgrades are deceptive about being 'good' - Artificier armour, for example, is near-useless. What's the point of a 2+ save on a model that's probably going to be attacked with weapons that remove armour saves anyway?


The most efficient HQs are generally accepted to be Chaplains with a Jump Pack and (maybe) an Adamantium Mantle, attached to an Assault Squad led by a Vet with a Power Fist - not too many points, quick, and relatively deadly, with a 4+ Invul save and no instant killing possible. Librarians are popular because of their force weapons and psychic hoods, but they're considered a secondary choice when stacked up against the universal Chaplain, generally used for specific things like fighting Eldar or hunting down big Tyranid gribblies. Commanders are used only when he's REALLY strapped for points, or he wants to use a 'shooty' command squad, or he's a real fluff hound.


Elites are where the "Toy Syndrome" REALLY starts to take hold of most Marine players. I have this to say about Terminators: The way most players use them, they're absolute points sinks. With the advent of the new deep striking rules, this has cleared up some, but more people are impressed with the illusion of Terminator invincibility than with the reality. For the lucky, Terminators can be the toughest around; but average statistics show that for the price of nearly three Marines, they go down quick, especially with the fact that EVERYONE uses Plasma Guns and Lascannons. (the next time someone bitches about Starcannons in my Eldar army, I'm going to ask him how many Plasma guns he takes in his tac squads!) Larger terminator squads offset this vulnerability somewhat, but at a price. Make Terminator squads a high shooting priority; even they'll fail 2+ saves sometime. Engaging them in close combat is all right if there are only a few left, but beware of those power fists! Many people these days min-max squads to get as many assault cannons on the table as they can - but that leaves the Terminators vulnerable to casualties.


For Termie Assault squads, the only (efficient) way to get them in close is a Land Raider Crusader - be sure to take those VPs away from him as quickly as possible. Experienced players know these vulnerabilities and try to minimize them by attacking flanks, and making sure you can't concentrate firepower on them - fast-moving units can take care of them quickly.


Veterans are, in my mind, a reasonable option, but it seems that few people use them. For only a few points more than a regular squad, they automatically have a veteran skill - I would favor Infiltrate in a scout-heavy army, Furious Charge in a defensive army (giving you a counter-charging unit). You can also give the basic squad members powered weapons (somewhat expensive option, though) and Terminator honors (though that's very much Toy Syndromish.) Watch and see what job he has these guys set up for, if he has them, and deny their ability to do that job. They're not much more expensive then regular SMs normally, but if he has them kitted out make them a high target - plenty of VPs for no harder than a normal Marine.


Dreadnoughts are misnamed. In my Marine army, mine was named "Brother Prudence" for his attitude about charging squads that couldn't hurt him, hiding from enemy heavy weapons, and generally being, er, prudent about the battlefield. They can be a strong counter-charge unit, and with the now infamous Assault Cannon effective at troop and tank hunting, but despite things like Venerable upgrades they aren't that durable. Experienced players use them en masse - the more of them on the table, the more likely it is that some will survive. They aren't a very high priority target, but could make for some quick VPs if he uses them wrong or only has one on the table. Drop Pods make for an effective one-turn surprise, but if he drops it in your rear lines that back armour is going to be turned towards SOMETHING - see how well it stands up to bolter fire, eh?


Tech-Marines are an oddity. Given the right upgrades, they can lead very shooty squads, be close-combat demons, or even just kick back and repair vehicles. They're still too new to have settled into a defined pattern of play, and so I'm reluctant to give any advice but this: They are either a lone model or a leading a small group of models that are relatively frail but still worth a lot of points. Tearing a Techmarine and servitors apart could net you a lot of points...


As has been mentioned, some Assault Marines plus a Chaplain is considered an "industry standard" for close-combat effectiveness. Add to that the two flamers a player can have per squad, and you've got a nasty close-in unit. Treat it with respect, but don't be too afraid - it's not going to rip through half your army the way a Khornate DP can.


Landspeeders. Landspeeders are THE vehicle these days. Quick, able to give them Assault Cannons, cheap, I fully expect to see armies with all their FA slots filled to the brim with Landspeeders the next time I go to a big tournament. Most people now use the Heavy Bolter/Assault Cannon combination, especially since statistics prove that it's just as good if not better than a Multimelta speeder at tank hunting... still, Multimelta speeders are more reliable, but work best in-close; read on for the foolishness of that. You should know that Landspeeders ARE vulnerable to a common bolter, and a Heavy bolter can wreak havoc among an entire squadron. Respect these guys, but if he's foolish or unlucky enough to have one within rapid fire range, bring it down with bolters. And remember - with squadrons, only ONE vehicle needs to be in range for the entire squadron to be targeted, he has to distribute any glancing/penning hits among all members, and that any vehicles he leaves behind due to crew stunned or immobilised results count as being destroyed.


Bikes, Attack Bikes, and Scout Bikes have fallen by the wayside as Landspeeders rise in prominence and Assault Marines drop in points cost. They are tougher than a regular marine, to be sure, but much more expensive - if he uses bikes, it'll be as a mobile firepower unit, possibly even as tank hunters. Scout Bikes are an interesting option, with the ability to assault on the first turn - but they don't have much staying power.


Devastators are, in my opinion, overpriced for most of their weapons. If he has a squad of Lascannon Devs, wipe them out - they're worth mucho victory points. Some people mix weapons in their squads, but there are very few efficient mixed weapons combinations. Devs are more survivable than the tanks, but trade that off for a lack of mobility and a higher expense. Because they deploy first, it's not impossible to just deploy in such a way that his Devastators are fairly useless.


Vindicators are VERY SCARY at close range, and if he has one he'll be able to get it in close with the now-standard Smoke Launchers and Machine Spirit upgrades. Still, the fact that it's only effective in close is its weakness, too - the side armour on Vindicators are reasonably frail. Make Vindicators a high-priority target for your army, and try to shoot at their sides.


Predators come in two flavors - 3 Lascannons or Autocannon/Heavy Bolter. The LC model is more common for some reason, but the AC/HB model is MUCH better at anti-squad work, and (in my mind) clearly more efficient. The cheapest place for lascannons is the Tac squads, and the AC/HB model will take its toll even against Space Marines.


Whirlwinds are, to my way of thinking, one of the best Heavy Support choices. Cheap, with a long-range Ordnance blast, and it's indirect fire so you don't have to expose it to rude folks with lascannons - oh, sure, more people are impressed with the AP on the Vindicator's, but what does that AP matter if you're never in range? And, once again, there's the principle that if you force Marines to take enough saves, they WILL fail... Removing this threat with a quick-moving Landspeeder would be your best bet.


Land Raiders are a white elephant, plain and simple - in non-military hardware speak, that means they got ambitious while designing it, tried to make it do lots of things, and ended up so that it was pretty darn bad at everything and costs too much to boot. Some people with expensive command squads stick them in Land Raiders to take advantage of the LR's rule that units inside can charge... but that's just putting even more eggs in a not-very-strong basket. The AV 14 looks threatening, but there are more than enough lascannons, meltaguns, monstrous creatures, and worse out there who can tear an LR apart like wastepaper. Be sure that you have some of those, and give opponents a lesson in why these tanks are worse than nothing.


The Land Raider Crusader is a bare step up - it can hold more Terminators than a minum 5, it has lighter guns (which means more mobility while still shooting), but... for all of that, it's still overpriced and just plain not durable enough for anyone to respect. Just one Mass Point... but that would mean making the FW and VDR official. :P Disable Crusaders as quickly as possible, because they hold inside them very close-combat oriented squads that are often very expensive.


Traits divide up into three areas: alternate organizations, upgrade characters, and upgrade squads. Oh, and Never Despair, which is kind of a bastard child.


Alternate Organizations boil down to four categories: more Bikes, more Assault Marines, more Dreadnoughts, and more Devastators. More bikes are used by players of the White Scars bent and few others - it's not a power-gaming army but a delicate and difficult to use force. Expect a low model count, follow the doctrine of eliminating scoring units, and you should be able to win - but many players with WS are experienced. More assault marines are used by guys who like to get in your face - it's often coupled with the trait that gives his squads Furious Charge for an extra bit of punch. More Dreadnoughts is an interesting one - I'd like to see how well it does on the field, but I've never yet come against it. Same deal with the Devastators one - but the Devastators are liable to be a lethally shooty army...


There are only two upgrade characters, and the first is only used by 'fluff' players who want their IH army to be commanded by a Techmarine - it's not particularly effective, I feel, compared to the other choices available. Making Vet Sergeants into Apothecaries, on the other hand... a player earns back the points spent on with only TWO marines saved, and with the book stating clear as day that it can be used against even high AP weapons like Starcannons and Plasmaguns... plus, if a squad is deployed in the right way, he'll NEVER have to take Morale checks for shooting. All in all, worth mentioning, just barely on the sane side of "Toy Syndrome" - if he has squads set up like this, get them into CC as quickly as possible to reduce the benefits as much as possible.


Upgrading squads includes weapon and veteran skill upgrades. One can have two special weapons and replace a normal squad's weapons with BP/CCW; the first is far more popular, especially among those who don't want to set aside their Rhinos just yet. You can give Furious Charge, Infiltrate, Tank Hunters, Preferred Enemy, OR True Grit and Counter-Charge, depending on your taste, to your ordinary squads instead of just your veterans. However, these can lead to "Toy Syndrome" again; keep an eye out for signs of it. For offensive armies, Furious Charge is by far the most popular, of course! Infiltrate ranks among those who want a scout-heavy army or just a force with a tactical advantage: always deploying AFTER an opponent. True Grit & Counter-Charge (as a matched pair!) are strong among defensive armies; since they won't get the charge anyway, they might as well insure that when they DO get attacked, they pitch in with everything they've got. Tank Hunters isn't very popular, from what I've seen on the forum, and Preferred Enemy... well, if you could select "Space Marines" or "Chaos", it'd be immensely popular, but since you can't most players slot it by the wayside. Also, a player can give his entire army a 6+ invul save - but since you can't use cover (and cover saves REALLY help these days), it isn't well-liked.


The only drawback that affects table game-play (and thus, is subject to this discussion!) is a mirror twin of an advantage, too - One allows a Space Marine player to dice for an extra turn, the other lets his opponent do the same, sometimes to his detriment. It's not very reliable, though, so I think it'd be uncommon compared to the much better traits available.



To win against Space Marines, watch for the "Toy Syndrome" as discussed above and focus fire on that. If there aren't any signs of that, reduce his scoring units to manageable levels. Look and see what Traits he might have - if he's got a bunch of Assault Marines, he'll probably have Furious Charge on 'em; if he's got all his regular Marines equipped with a Bolter/CCW he's prepared to recieve your charge with True Grit, etcetera. Marines versus Marines often comes down to who has more powered weapons and AP3 or better guns - try to stack the deck in your favor but know that your enemy will be doing the same.


(personally, I find Marine-on-Marine games to be terribly dull, which is why I sold mine - I'd rather be the bad guy every game than play good guy against good guy, and so few players DON'T play Marines...)



Next up, the Chapters with their own little entries! Hmm, should Salamanders be included in that, or has GW invalidated their list from Codex: Armageddon?

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Which reminds me... shouldn't we need more discussions on the many different types of lists chaos can field?



I'll probably go back and edit my earlier posts rather than adding new ones; I didn't realize how much more detail I was going to go into on these later lists... Yes, expanding the information I provided earlier is on my mind.


Plus, I seem to have an established format now.


1) discuss general points


2) illuminate troops, HQ, elite, fast attack, and heavy support in that order.


3) illustrate oddities or unusual tactics that need to be taken against the individual armies.


Though it would conflict somewhat with how I set out the Eldar list, too... hmm. I dunno, before I did the IG one, I was expecting more input from other players, but I started to get on a roll in that one..



Oh, and an unscrupulous person COULD use this thread as a decider for alternate armies, but remember, that's on the sly. :D This thread is about how to FIGHT armies, not what you could do WITH them...



EDIT: before any Moderati get nervous about my last statement, please note that I spent much more time on the Space Marines than any other army because 2/3rds of the time, you're more likely to be fighting other SMs, and 2) it's very valuable to know how an opponent would view your army. This is strictly from a sanctioned, power-armour-centric view, and despite my occasional heretical utterings, that is how it will stay.


Um, Refuse? You can put away those Blades of Reason now...

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