The "How to beat..." anything thread!

[iamfanboy]

Arrr but BT do get ATSKNF its in there update that they follow all the STANDARD SM rules except were modified by the FAQ

 

Secoundly iamfanboy you must be looking at a first print of the Armaggeddon Codex cos when they re-printed it, they put in the thing about BT CS's and Vet Sgts and that they could take BP & CCW's

 

 

Ah. The reprint bull<DELETED BY THE INQUISITION>. God, I'm so sick of that. At least when they made screwups back in 1999, they were honest enough to admit it and put out little pasty tabs you could just glue into your old Codex - I guess that doesn't match their bottom line any more...

 

OK, so BT have ATSKNF and get Veteran Sergeants in their Command Squads, at least - probably to allow them to have Terminator Honors in the entire squad. Righty-o then, good to know.

 

Sorry for the grumpy post, but I just woke up, and I have to go run some errands, and what with my inability to access the B&C last night (what was that about? Did anyone else have that problem?) the Space Wolves entry will be delayed somewhat.

 

 

And thank you very much, Master Jeridan, something like that made me smile even on a morning like this one. :rolleyes:

 

 

EDIT: On second thought, nobody say anything about last night, that'd drag the thread too far off-topic. Just wanted to say why it wasn't done last night.

[iamfanboy]

OK, it's time for the Space Wolves entry. La la la... I really shouldn't be doing this, I should keep doing my novel, but oh well. More benefits for you guys eh?

 

 

Space Wolves

 

 

Space Wolves are described, even in their rulebook, as "Vikings... In... SPAAAACEE!!!" but that doesn't make them a joke.

 

On the contrary, Space Wolves are one of the most non-Marine Space Marine armies, and they are intensely dangerous to the people who don't know what to expect.

 

First of all, every unit has Counter-Charge and True Grit - This makes Wolves dangerous even on the defensive in CC. They also ignore the modifiers for being outnumbered in CC - which is superior to Fearless, these days.

 

Also, their army is divided up into 'retinues' - which means he HAS to have an HQ for every 750 points or fraction thereof. This character concentration means that he is stacked up even better at close combat but one shouldn't dismiss the Wolves as a strictly CC army!

 

Also note that Space Wolves can have drop pods - which is the only way their Terminators can Deep Strike.

 

Grey Hunter packs are designed for the short-range firefight and the charge. They can't have any heavy weapons in their squads, but make up for it by being able to take power weapons and power fists on regular squad members! Having yet to fight against them in 4th, I don't know how people use them in the face of Rhino Rush's death - but I can imagine them keeping those Rhinos, dumping the Grey Hunters out for short-range firepower, and relying on Counter-Charge and True Grit combined to deal with anything that charges them.

 

Blood Claws, on the other hand, ARE near-crippled from the end of Rhino Rush - at least in most player's opinions. They only get their special benefit if they manage to get the charge - and a squad of charging Blood Claws is so nasty that you should make an effort to make sure YOU'RE the one charging THEM, after shooting them up that is. These days, however, Blood Claws are likely to be protected by the psyker's ability that puts them in cover; still, it's better to charge them first before waiting to be charged. Deny the BCs their special rule and really tick your opponent off to boot.

 

Unlike most regular Marines and their 'sure-fire' Chaplain, it's harder to say what HQ choices he'll show up with - this, combined with the Retinue rule, means that Space Wolves players run to highly individualized characters. As mentioned above, he's likely to have a Rune Priest protecting and guiding a pack of Blood Claws with Storm Caller - I called these guys Storm Claws before the 13th Company showed up. :rolleyes: The other entry worth mentioning for its difference from the Codex is the Venerable Dreadnought - it has a rule which allows a player to re-roll the dice for first turn, which is especially valuable nowadays when the first turn means so much!

 

Plus, Space Wolves can have Frost Blades - which gives +1 to a character's strength, leveling up the difference between Wolf characters and xenos army HQs to a fair degree.

 

Elites include the Wolf Guard - which may be deployed either as Veteran Sergeant-style characters to other squads, or used as a retinue for a Lord. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour tend to be slightly more expensive than their other Loyalist brethren, and can't teleport like their brethren, so are more (in general) vulnerable; this coupled with the fact that they can only be taken as escort to a character means that a squad of WG Termies have a LOT of points tied up in them. Note, though, that he doesn't have to have the full squad in Terminator armour - though with the ruling on mixed armour saves, it's a disadvantage to him either way.

 

Wolf Scouts, on the other hand, are nothing but advantage. With the option to upgrade pack members to having power weapons and ability to move up behind your lines and blast tanks in the rear, expect to see at least one pack. The best way to counter them is NOT to hug your deployment zone - a tricksy thing, when the rest of his army wants to come to grips with you... Just move your tanks forward the first turn, keep their rear armour turned at least SOMEWHAT away from the back of your board, and you shouldn't have a problem, all of the anti-armour guns these guys have are limited to a 12" range and aren't amazingly strong. Plus, while they're a small unit, he'll often pack many points into them - making them mighty tasty targets for only having a 4+ armour save... though that, too, is their job: distraction from the main lines. Don't let scouts take too much of your attention, but respect their abilities.

 

Iron Priests are a rarely-seen choice. Though his Thralls have higher S and T than normal Servitors (probably representing the fact that they're made from failed Marine recruits) and can be given power weapons, they're expensive for such a small unit and focused fire could easily bring down a number of invested points.

 

Without Rhino Rushing, many SW players have turned to the previously-disdained Blood Claws Bike Pack to ensure that he gets the maximum benefit from their charging ability. I never much saw why these guys were disliked, anyway- cheaper than a regular Marine bike and with a nice charging ability, watch for these guys. Try to charge THEM if you see the chance, just like regular Blood Claws. Jump Pack Blood Claws, however, are WAY overpriced - if you see any on the table, be sure to crush them. Don't forget, too, that he can have regular Landspeeders in his army, and he'll likely use them to cover for his lack of heavy firepower.

 

Speaking of Heavy Firepower, it's time for the Long Fangs. I don't get these guys. Chaos Havocs have been fighting for millennia, Eldar can see the ways of the future, Tau have an almost intrinsic grasp of technology, an entire Tyranid horde is controlled by a single mind, and somehow it's the near-barbarians who (if you believe the fluff) don't even understand the power armour they wear that can split fire between two different targets? Oh well. Be that as it may, Long Fangs are mighty dangerous. Usually, you'll see two set up for anti-infantry and two for anti-tank. About the only weakness they have is a positively tiny squad size - even light fire directed its way could reduce a Long Fangs squad quickly, and he can't afford to lose ANY of the models, unlike the Devastators that can have meatshields.

 

Exterminators, if you see them, are nastily proficient at squad-cutting. However, they are quite expensive, and most SW players would prefer a Predator or another pack of Long Fangs for the price. If one hits the table, remember that it's strongest on the front side - try to get a flank shot when you go hunting for it.

 

Space Wolves have a number of interesting trinkets in their armory, setting aside the ones that 'count as' something else. They can prevent Infiltrators from setting up sometimes, give the Mark of the Wulfen to one member of their army (more on the Wulfen later in the 13th company entry), let a character get +1 Attack when Counter-Charging, and give a character the ability to hit anything on a 3+ - nice when the opponent is a Hive Tyrant, no? Also, any characters can have a small crew of giant wolves following them about - and can join other squads with these wolves in tow. While not too powerful in and of themselves, they can add a bit more punch and weight of numbers.

 

 

Generally speaking, a Space Wolves army will have enough shooting to cover them while they move up to engage you in hand-to-hand - or be charged by you, it matters little to the True Grit equipped characters. He's also going to have a squad of Scouts ready to shoot any vulnerable tanks in the ass - one fun counter I saw to this was a player using his Rhinos right up against the part of the table edge that he would have been most vulnerable to attack from - they can't move THROUGH enemy units, after all. That was one ticked-off Wolf he was facing...

 

OK, 13th company next in a mini-posting. Now it's time for a break. (whew!)

[revwill]

Great thread. Lots of good info for noobs and vets alike. Being new to the b&c this is exactly the kind of topic I was looking for. Keep up the great work.

[iamfanboy]

OK, it's 13th Company time.

 

Now, I won't lie - I've never seen these guys. Even at the height of the EoT campaign, when people were bringing Defilers and LatD to the table with the paint still wet, no one was bringing 13th Company... and no one saw the advantages, THEN. "They're so slow! I mean, wow! No Rhinos, no Rhino Rush? Boo, hiss!"

 

Nowadays, I can see players singing a different tune. Sure, 13th company is limited, but very characterful and fun - and it has a decent chance of winning when used right, unlike say Grey Knights or something similar. ^_^

 

But I've never faced them myself, so this is all conjecture.

 

One edge the 13th Co has is that every model but the Bikers have the "scouts" special rule - if you need an opinion on how lethal this is, just ask anyone who's faced an entire army of Genestealers armed with Scuttlers.

 

The basic unit of a 13th Co is the Grey Slayer - mostly identical to the Grey Hunter packs, only lacking the options for squad power weapons and costing quite a bit more points. Once again, probably most popular for short-range firefights and willingly taking the charge afterwards.

 

For HQ choices, the Lord can be taken with a twist - if he has the Mark of the Wulfen (giving him extra Attacks in close combat, and making him Fearless), then Wulfen can be used as regular Troops choices - but no Grey Slayers can be taken. Dunno how well this would work out in practicality. Rune Priests, on the other hand, are very practical - with the ability to teleport themselves and a nearby squad anywhere on the table using the Deep Strike rules, it can supplant some of that slowness and giving you a distraction to deal with, or else. Wolf Priests help control the Wulfen - but more on that in a bit.

 

Wulfen are nasty - quick, high S, good # of attacks, if they had power weapons they'd be the most evil unit in the game. Thankfully, they don't, but in some ways they don't need them. Storm Claws, on the other hand, CAN have power weapons - and may act as an escort to a Wolf Lord. Both of the Elites choices are equipped for close-combat, but have different ways of getting there.

 

Fenrisian Wolfpacks are cheap, blindingly fast, and - well, that's about it, but don't discount their effects. Just one or two packs of them could tie up your lines of fire for long enough for the rest of the army to get there. Storm Claws bikers add another element of quickness to the army - given meltaguns or plasma guns, they could do tankhunting that the rest of the army might find difficult to accomplish.

 

Expect to see PLENTY of Long Fangs. With no other Heavy Support choices, and no other heavy weapons in the army, a 13th Co player will no doubt rely on Long Fangs for almost all of their shooting.

 

Essentially, a 13th Co army is bent at getting into HtH as quickly as possible - and with the Scouting special rule, a number of units that can get in close quickly, and nothing to distract him from the focus of that kind of army, he's likely to get the chance to. Still, while his army can fight a little better than ordinary Space Marines, they're no more durable than you - just be prepared for it to get close in and dirty fast. Try to gun down his Wolves, if he has any packs of them - if he hits you with a small enough number that you can wipe them out in HtH the first round, you'll disrupt his battle plans. Same goes for Storm Claws bikers.

 

 

Next, back to the filthy Xenos scum with a section on Tau!

[Alcyon]

A couple of comments on SW:

-Blood Claws. Nowadays a lot of folks are taking GHs as their reliable, basic troops in rhinos, like you said. Blood Claws are frequently put into a rather large footslogging squad where they can soak up a lot of firepower (most players are very afraid of them) and cause a lot of damage if they get into combat. The best trick is to whittle them down with a lot of plasma/bolters/etc. and then charge them with your most powerful CC unit. I lost a whole squad to an 8-man DA Assault Squad and their Interrogator-Chaplain. However one thing to remember is that they are not very surviviable and are only dangerous in CC; Grey Hunters can be much more deadly with their greater mobility (rhino rapid-fire) and their great ability to stand steadfast against all comers.

-Blood Claw Bike Squads are disliked by some due to the fact that they die quite easily-T5 isn't really that much better than T4 and at 30pts a marine, you'll usually only see squads of 4-6. They also die like flies in CC as they don't have enough models or tenacity to carry on a CC for more that one round-their charges are devestating, but they die quickly afterward.

[sarked]

Essentially, a 13th Co army is bent at getting into HtH as quickly as possible - and with the Scouting special rule, a number of units that can get in close quickly, and nothing to distract him from the focus of that kind of army, he's likely to get the chance to. Still, while his army can fight a little better than ordinary Space Marines, they're no more durable than you - just be prepared for it to get close in and dirty fast. Try to gun down his Wolves, if he has any packs of them - if he hits you with a small enough number that you can wipe them out in HtH the first round, you'll disrupt his battle plans. Same goes for Storm Claws bikers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Take note of the Scouting special rule. This will cause some disillusion when they deploy. You'll think that you can position yourself to have LOS on these guys only to find them moving away because of this rule.

 

It happened to me once when the 13th co were forced to deploy in the open as stated in the mission. Before I could actually shoot at anything, he used the scout rule to hide his stuff. I had my turn wasting shots at the lower priority targets.

 

-sarked

[iamfanboy]

Very nice points Alcyon, and that's why I like it when people reply: Always nice to get the experienced touch...

 

OK, now it's time for Tau. Unfortunately, my Codex has disappeared somewhere into the Warp of the last four moves I've made, and my electronic .pdf copy is likewise not within access - I don't know where it is. So, this is based off of memory; fortunately for you, I've played Tau armies relatively recently and have a good memory.

 

Tau

 

For a race that's supposedly inspired by anime, I know I wouldn't want any Tau hentai lying around my computer... give me Tifa any day!

 

OK, enough jokes. Tau were supposedly GW's answer to player's protests that, "Too much of the game is in close combat! I want some shooting!"

 

...and boy, are the Tau ever good at shooting. And suck at hand-to-hand. Oh, as with Necron, there are an exception or two - but those exceptions are in and of themselves hardly GOOD at hth, just adequate. With this in mind, know that the Tau really, REALLY hate getting into close combat - even Imperial Guard can kick over their sandcastles.

 

Then again, competitive Tau armies are very good at avoiding the perils of hand-to-hand - fast moving jetpacks, gunning you down from long range, and everything else can lead to a long and merry chase.

 

Fire Warriors are cheap, armed with a good gun, relatively well armoured, cheap, oh, and did I mention cheap? One of the most laughable things about the idea of a "40% Troops minimum" in tournaments is that Tau CAN'T get that in 2000 point games. There are no gun upgrades for the squad, though they can add Gun Drones for additional fire effect. They can also be mounted in Devilfish transports - which, for the rapid-firing Tau guns, can be more of an asset than a detriment, especially since their transports hover - meaning he can have the Devilfish between the Tau and the enemy and not have to worry about it blocking LOS. Remember, also, that their guns may be powerful, but they still have the BS of a Guardsman - meaning that there could be a heap-o-misses unless he's lucky, and that he likes having lots of Fire Warriors to increase his chances of hitting. Also, the guns have a decent 30" long range - meaning that he'll be firing at you for longer than you'd expect as you approach.

 

Kroot are... well... there, as supposedly the "only hand-to-hand the Tau have." As a squad, there are multiple upgrades that they can have, and with S4 you'd THINK they'd do a good job, but... in reality, they come up against anything heavier than Grots or Imperial Guard, and the Kroot are the ones getting hurt. ...Which is what most clever Tau commanders expect, and they field these guys as speedbumps that you have to spend a turn or two carving through before getting to the softer meat of the army. Still, I hardly see Kroot any more as an upgrade to the Tau army, most people prefer to have more Fire Warriors and more guns.

 

For HQ, there's only one realistic choice - the Shas'o and Shas'el (I think they're called), battlesuited commanders who REALLY have powered armour. The Ethereals are supposedly another stop-gap hth unit, but few people use him because once he (inevitably) dies, the rest of the army heads for the hills. The Shas'o, on the other hand, is well worth it. Coming with an Invulnerable save if you give him shielding drones, an escort of other battlesuit-equipped Tau, and a power weapon upgrade, they really CAN make a stop-gap hth measure while dishing out a HUGE amount of ranged death. Still, closing with him will end his threat once and for all - especially if you mince him with a power fist...

 

Which is something to note: Anything in battlesuits is vulnerable to Instant Death, all the more so because of the preponderance of them that most Tau players take, and the fact that they come with two Wounds apiece. A powerfist is your best friend, but a lascannon will do in a pinch. ;)

 

A squad of Crisis Suits can dish out a high amount of firepower, but that isn't their main asset when he takes them: They can also move 6" in the Assault Phase in any direction, which is often just enough to take them out of danger. Plan for that when you're assaulting them - try to back them into corners and into high-risk terrain if you can, if you can't make it so that any way he'd move is a bad way. Note, too, that plasma guns work just as well on them as they do on any regular Marine... one thing that Marine players sometimes forget against Tau, in the rush to get in close, is that YOU have guns too.

 

While I often may joke about the hth capabilies of Tau, I have nothing but respect for the CC ability of Stealthsuits - I watched a unit of Khornate Possessed AND a hand-to-hand crew of CSM fail to kill them after being reduced to under half-strength by the Stealthsuits' fire and be wiped out in return. Were it not for my Daemonettes killing around 500 points worth, the Stealthsuits would have been MVP. With one of the most efficient firepower-to-squadmember ratios around and the fact that they always count in cover, Stealthsuits are no joke; especially because they get that second 6" move in the Assault Phase, too.

 

Tau Pathfinders are kind of an... oddity. Coming automatically with a Devilfish, with the ability to have a markerlight for that Tau rocket that goes around corners, and the fact that several of them can have the Tau rail rifle (that was first introduced in the Fire Warrior game!) there's not much difference between them and regular Fire Warriors, but there's enough to make it a lethal one - especially if he has quite a few Devilfish and you don't know which one will drop out the Pathfinders to markerlight your Vindicator. Also, they all have the Pulse Carbines - guns with a slightly shorter range but more powerful than the typical Fire Warrior rifle.

 

Gun Drone squads are a no-brainer for most Tau players, unlike the lame Kroot hound packs and the hardly-better-thanness of the Pathfinders. Cheapness and a good gun combined with the ability to deepstrike adds up to a unit that Tau can throw away with no qualms and that you can't easily ignore. Remember that a twinlinked BS2 is just as good as BS3, statistically...

 

I've never seen Kroot hounds, don't remember their entry; all I can recall is that they get attached to regular Kroot squads. Same deal with Krootox. It's been so long since I've seen a Tau player with Kroot that I don't even REMEMBER what they were like on the battlefield! :o

 

So we'll move onto the big two of Heavy support - the first being the bigger brothers of the Crisis Suits, Broadsides. These things are rightfully hated by Marine players - with a hefty S10 AP2, these things will blow into almost any tank and out the other side. Still, I don't think they can use the submunition ordnance blast - but they can have other guns, and drones acting as shields. These guys are PRIORITY - but before you fire the biggest guns, send a wave of lighter fire to remove his protective drones. In fact, that applies to any tau battlesuits with drones - a hail of bolter fire followed by a melta or plasma shot should do some major damage.

 

Hammerheads can be given either a railgun or an ion cannon thing - but since I've never seen a player use the ion cannon, I'd have to guess that the railgun is that much superior, and my guess would be right. With the ability to land an S10 Ordnance (!!!) blast, these guys are downright nasty. Kill them right quick.

 

Other upgrades... I remember there's a missile that can 'go around corners', and one that lets a Tau vehicle that suffers an 'immobilized' result settle gently to the ground instead of dying, and that's about it. ^_^ I'm sure there's so much stuff I've forgotten that I should be ashamed to even let this post go out, but I'm sure that there are a few Shas'els hiding inside power armour on this forum that any mistakes will be commented upon and corrected. ^_^

 

 

Kroot armies - there are a few select nutters out there who have chosen to field entire armies of Kroot. Salute them for their devotion to the hobby and a downright ugly army, but with virtually no anti-tank or good ranged firepower, you should be able to send them off after a jolly good firefight. A gross oversimplification, I know; but then, I've never seen a Kroot army ANYWHERE.

 

 

EDIT: All this talk about the Tau makes me want to finally get around to beating the Fire Warrior game... Next up is Tyranids!

[iamfanboy]

Oh, dear spirits above. *bangs head into desk* I have to rewrite this....

 

....Argh...

 

 

Well, I am missing:

 

Tyranids, new Tau, and, uh... new Black Templar. Hrm. Not that much of a much. I'll try to get to it this weekend while taking breaks from Kingdom Hearts 2 and Xenosaga 2.

 

Oh well, the tragedy isn't that big.

[Shinguuji]

Keep it up! i'm really enjoying this tatica....

[ironloki]

So this thing actually survived. Must add it to the tactica reference in the archives

[Havock]

Fanboy, you really have soem facts wrong.

 

Railguns are S10 Ap1, that makes them nasty because a 4+ penetrates anything.

 

de Hammerhead submunition is -thank god- not S10, but S6 Ap4 Ordnance blast.

 

Kroot can be annoying on cover, 2S 4 attacks each, that hurts if you don't have decentisch assault squads.

They bite it when facing flamers though.

[Ryan]

Lets ee when re-doing Tau you will have to do a section purly on Markerlights

[Raider]

Great tactica.

 

Blood Claws are very similar per point as hunters in shooting and recieving charges, but are way better at harging and at surviving incoming fire, so overall they are simply better than Hunters.

 

Id like to hear your thoughts on Drop Pods.

[iamfanboy]

Funny you should mention drop pods, I've been considering their uses carefully since finding a VERY CHEAP way to make a ton of good drop pods from 32 oz. Gatorade bottles, some plasticard, and all those extra Space Marine bitz on the vehicle sprues.

 

So, without further ado, here's a detailed treatise on using:

 

Drop Pods

 

(If you're going up against them, just expect them to be going by this train of thought)

 

Drop Pods are what make a Space Marine army, well, Space Marines, which is why it's been such a pity that they're SO EXPENSIVE. Drop Pods have several advantages over other Deep Striking: If they scatter onto enemy units or impassible terrain they aren't automatically destroyed, and they are vehicles that block LOS in their own right, and have their own weapons. While that doesn't matter much with the standard-issue storm bolters, for a mere extra 20 points you can have an Ordnance-sized template dropping pieplates on anyone within 12". I think that'd be worth it, especially if you have more than one Drop Pod in your army...

 

I favor having 8 Marines in Drop Pod squads- on the one hand, you need some numbers to help keep them in the fight because they will almost certainly be charged; on the other you don't want a HUGE squad because you don't want too many points in one basket.

 

Also, I'm operating under the assumption that your enemy will have enough squads that a Drop Pod unit will only get one turn of free firing before being charged or shot from all directions. While this might not always be the case, it's going to be so often enough that I can assume that.

 

There are several squads that can use Drop Pods, and now I'll examine each of them in turn.

 

Out of all the Command Squads, the one I feel to be most effective in a Drop Pod is a Librarium Command squad. Commander Command squads are best when they're on the table from the start to give their Ld benefit for as long as possible, and Reclusiam Command squads are best when leading a charge. Librarians, however, have a number of short-range shooting-style powers (three of them have a 12" range), so getting them into that range without being shot to pieces or charged first is all-important. Of his powers, the one I favor the most is Fear of the Darkness - especially because you can place the Drop Podding squad in a very favorable position to crossfire fleeing enemy units!

 

Note, too, that Command Squads can have two Assault Weapons, giving them even more of an edge when it comes to shortrange firepower. As with all Command Squads, be careful of over-equipping them - a Vet Sarge with a Power Fist to back up your Librarian, and maybe an Apothecary to help save guys if you roll bad with your Plasma Gun firings, should be about your upper limit.

 

Terminator Squads using drop pods is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it protects them from being wiped out by a bad scatter; on the other, it restricts the unit size to a mere 5, which is not a very safe number. Since Terminators don't NEED Drop Pods to deep strike, I would not recommend using them. Ditto for Assault Terminators.

 

Veteran Squads are also an iffy prospect. You can have a Vet Sarge and another Vet with Power Fists, giving them some hefty close combat punch; on the other hand, whichever Veteran Skills they choose will quite likely be wasted because they can't use heavy weapons (tank hunters) or charge (furious charge) on the turn they come in, and they probably won't get another turn of shooting after their first. To avoid wasted points, I wouldn't put vets in a DP.

 

Dreadnoughts, on the other hand, are sure-fire drop pod successes. The main vulnerabilities of Dreads (weak armour, especially weak rear armour, and slow speed) are both covered by the drop pods. Also, if you can place the drop pod correctly, you can hide the Dread from any enemy heavy weapons squads, forcing him to deal with it with some of his close combat specialists rather than killing it with fire. Very good idea.

 

Tactical squads could be good or or even better, depending on your traits. For a Cleanse and Purify army - sure winner! Two flamers can kick ass, finally. Remember, you'll never scatter INTO an enemy squad, and a player with balls could put a drop pod INTENTIONALLY into an enemy unit, knowing that the pod will move to the nearest safe edge of the enemy - and letting you place the flamer guys so they can have the maximum effectiveness. Veteran Sergeants with weapons are almost mandatory, because the squad WILL be charged, and you want your Drop Podders to earn as many points back as possible.

 

Scouts are... well, I dunno. It doesn't make much sense to me to want to use them in this way, especially since they come with a deployment option, Infiltrate, already.

 

Devastator Squads are something only an idiot would put in a Drop Pod. They can't fire the turn they arrive, and they probably won't last long after that because only an idiot would leave them alone to set up their heavy weapons properly! Spend the points on more Tac Drop Pods, and leave these guys to set up on the table.

 

 

There are two overall tactical approaches to drop pod use: Putting your entire army in them, or just having a select few squads to support your footsloggers.

 

Having your entire army Deepstrike has edges and flaws. On the other hand, you'll ALWAYS get the first turn of firing; on the other, your army WILL arrive in bits and pieces (making each squad vulnerable in turn), and a canny player will use his first turn of movement to make sure that any place you put your deep strikers is bad for you. Also (fluffwise), your army is limited to the above units, Assault Squads, and Landspeeders; not a great selection, all told, and missing out on the best of the Space Marine vehicles.

 

A select few squads Drop Podding, on the other hand, has very good possibilities. It's unlikely that the squads you have on the table at the start will be overwhelmed before the reinforcements arrive, and when the Drop Pods arrive you can put your enemy between a rock and a hard place by deploying in his rear, giving him the unattractive choice of moving on your drop pods or keeping at your foot squads. As noted, Dreadnoughts, Librarium Command Squads, and even regular Tac squads are all primo choices for these squads.

 

 

And now I have to repeat what I said earlier: Deathwind Launchers are THE BEST TWENTY POINTS YOU WILL EVER SPEND. It makes an empty transport that your enemy can ignore at will into something that he will have to waste his time destroying, lest it pick him apart. Because they're all 12 on a side, too, they'll soak up some fire before being destroyed, and because they have 12" range on the Launchers, he'll fear approaching them in any way. A tricky git could have teeny squads that will almost certainly get wiped out by a charging enemy, and then blast the HELL out of the winners with the Deathwind Launchers - this could double-up well with the dual flamer tactic mentioned above!

 

Any other thoughts on Drop Pods?

[Havock]

Actually, terminators in droppods are great: it's more reliable and low numbers don't matter, it's more important to hide them from the big guns.

 

a terminator librarian shouting that everybody is affraid of the dark backed up by 2 stormbolters and 2 assault cannons is NASTY.

Especially if that bloody droppod is standing between them and your lascannons.

[Red Eyes]

LOL! I wrote a list on this toughts before you posted them!

 

http://bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=84635

 

There's no need to say I cempletely agree with you! :D

 

RE

[Raider]

Death Winds are not as great as they seem if I remember their statistics correctly. They hit 1/3 of the time and arrive at turn 2-4 normally. Thouse will often not get a single hit per game.

[iamfanboy]

You may remember their statistics correctly, Raider, and you're right for one DW Launcher on one drop-pod, but what about 3-4? Spread that one-third to hit across 3 drop-pods and statistically speaking (which is what you're doing), you'll hit at least once a turn - and an S5 Ordnance template is nothing for even Space Marines to sneer at, especially if the vehicle dropping those templates is in their line of advance or retreat.

 

And, as anyone who's commanded Orks could tell you, BS2 with a strong enough weapon will always pull through for you. I'll spend 20 points (the equivalent cost of a mere extra marine) for the chance to splatter two or even three guys a turn.

 

Also, it isn't about them KILLING anything; it's about the THREAT of them. Most people see you pull out a pieplate, roll to hit, and go "golly :cuss!?!?!?" For a very low points expenditure, you turn something that's just an empty container into a viable threat that even veterans might well consider dangerous enough to have to destroy.

 

Playing the odds is all right for just one, but you have to think about MORE than just the direct dice-rolling when deciding on an upgrade like the Deathwind Launchers. This game is won as much on the mind as it is with the dice, and the people who are unnerved by a couple of drop podding squads in their rear ranks will be even MORE scared by the threat of a DW Launcher - and even the 'smart' players who ignore it will pay the price at least once or twice before the game ends.

[pablo_fiasco]

heres a thought: nothing in the droppod entry says the deathwind launcher REPLACES the stormbolter, so not only do you still have the launcher, you also have the chance to bolterping someone as well

[Red Eyes]

yes, but since DPs have power of the machine spirit and no crew, you have to choose what to shoot each turn: the bolter OR the deathwind.

 

RE

[Brother Pariah]

The typical drop pod strategy espoused by the hotshot tournament players over on DakkaDakka.com is to deploy the drop pods in such a way as to divide the enemy army in half by creating a Wall of Drop Pods. Librarium Terminator Command squads with two assault cannons are a good choice, as they have insane firepower and are quite durable. With only half of the enemy army able to shoot at you, you have a distinct advantage. The old "divide and conquer" gambit works like a charm against armies which aren't very mobile, like Imperial Guard, Orks, shooty marines, etc.

[iamfanboy]

IT... IS... REBORN!!!!

 

 

Thanks to the good offices of Red Eyes (thank you much!) who managed to save the relevant files, here are the resurrected tacticas!!!

 

 

Tyranids

 

 

Man, and I thought the Underhive had a cockroach problem...

 

 

 

Tyranid players haven't yet settled on 'sure-fire' methods of winning with the new Codex (including me!), but there are several broad things that can be said with some measure of surety.

 

With immunity to Instant Death, the Synapse Creatures have assumed a level of importance far above what most players were willing to grant them before - and since they removed the Hive Node mutant system, he's

likely to give them even more priority. One new thing to note about Instinctual Behavior tests, however - if the models who'd be vulnerable to them (hormagaunts come to mind) are in CC, they DON'T have to take it -

presumably, the threat of dying gives their instincts enough to focus on.

 

Tyranid are characterized as a 'close-combat' army - while this is true, their shooting is NOT to be disrespected. Able to pour out volumes of fire that reroll attempts to wound, multiple Blast templates, and

mobile high S Ordnance blasts, with mines that can blow up if you move or shoot too near them, Tyranid shooting can break threatening squads and destroy vehicles as they move up to close range.

 

Also, Tyranids do NOT like Escalation - for many, having their Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants showing up after the rest of the army is death. I know that's how I won the last time I fought 'Nids... oh wait, that was

just my immense skill showing itself.

 

For Troops broods, he has a bewildering variety available. While they can no longer Infiltrate, the 'umble Genestealer, one of the oldest and most feared Tyranid types, have received a facelift in the way of

upgrades - he can give them a 4+ save to ignore those bolter rounds, scything talons to up their number of Rending attacks, and (most frightening) they can be given the ability to make a free Scout move - and now,

they're Fleet of Claw as well. Fortunately, all of the above options are expensive, and they're on a model that can only win in CC and relies on Rending to do that - and as any who are familiar with Rending can tell

you, those 6's are darn elusive sometimes. Once again, try to reduce his broods to a manageable size rather than try to take them out one at a time - it's (relatively) safe to bounce just two or three Genestealers in CC than try to wipe out one but leave a whole Brood intact.

 

Gaunts have guns. And before anyone laughs at them, they can have CHEAP guns, can move fast, come in very large numbers, and have Without Number - all of which can beoves and Marines can generally beat them in close combat. They rely on their cheapness and low priority to do their jobs - which is support the bigger monsters.

 

Hormagaunts, much like 'Stealers, have one job - close combat. Rather than relying on Rending and high I and S to deal death, they rely on numbers - no, make that NUMBERS. Also, they're very very fast, so fast

that they're likely to outstrip the speed of the Synapse Creatures driving them on - not that they much care, with the changes to the Instinctual Behavior rule. Like I said, however, Hormagaunts rely on numbers - if

you can reduce those numbers to a manageable level, you can easily bounce the Hormies in CC.

 

Rippers, or 'Anklebiters', are distraction troops - I use mine to tie up your dangerous CC squads while the rest of my army goes on to do its job. Vulnerable to Instant Death, however - if you can, a power fist will go a long way to removing the Anklebiter problem. Also, they can have a 12" assault range, which can come as a surprise - I wouldn't be shocked if this becomes the most popular upgrade of Rippers.

 

Well, since they changed the Winged Hive Tyrant to 0-1, you're really more likely to see a footslogging one than before- but it's not a sure thing. Winged Tyrants are fast, mean, and in-your-face. Fear them in CC,

but if you have to fight them, a hidden power fist could take the starch out of them. Still, he can't get them into CC on the first turn - getting a couple of Wounds on him before he charges is essential. Footslogging Tyrants are generally shootier, with a brood of Tyrant Guard to ensure that he gets over to your side eventually. One thing to note about Tyrants is that they do NOT count as Independant characters - meaning

that yes, they are scoring units. Since the Broodlord is clearly indicated as an Indichara, I have to assume that this is intentional and not an oversight. The Shadow in the Warp is a Tyrant-only psychic power - it impairs YOUR ability to use psychic powers but leaves the 'nids still sitting pretty.

 

Broodlords are firmly flavor-of-the-month, in my opinion. While they are big, fast, and nasty in CC, and can Infiltrate, they lack the flexibility of a Tyrant - for much the same price, after purchasing his obligatory ontourage of 'Stealers, and since he can't Fleet, he's no more faster than an ordinary creature - meaning he's got that much more time to be gunned down in. If you see one, pour firepower into it until its twitching corpse decorates the battlefield, but by NO MEANS assault it - avoid CC at all costs whatsoever, no exceptions to this rule.

 

Tyranid Warriors, on the other hand, have been restored somewhat in my eyes. With a dizzying array of upgrades to choose from, a 'Nid player could have either a mad killer prepared to leap forward at any time to

deal death in CC - or nothing more than a cheap distraction unit whose only real use is to soak up fire. The only upgrade that deserves mentioning is Leaping - once again, one can give a brood of Warriors a 12"

assault range and really put a fatal crimp in some player's defensive plans. Note, too, that not all the Broods of Warriors have to be given the same upgrades - meaning that one Brood might be the mad killers, and

another Brood be the cheap distraction.

 

Lictors, too, are nasty. They can Deep Strike into terrain features, cannot scatter outside that terrain feature, and assault after that normally - meaning that canny players will make sure that the feature is impassible or nasty enough that your troops won't be inside of it, killing his Lictor by deep strike. Plus, Lictors let him reroll a Reserves roll for each Lictor he has - meaning that in Escalation, Lictors are a Tyrant's best friend.

 

Carnifexes are allowed to be in the Elites section now, too - but one thing holds true: these guys have to be CHEAP. Generally speaking, Elites Carnifexes will be close-combat monsters but good for naught much

else - still respect them.

 

Fast Attack includes your favorite and mine (what, you don't like them?) the Ravener. Essentially, these guys are quick and deadly, and with the ability to give them a ranged biomorph in ADDITION to their close-combat gear, along with their deepstriking, these guys are not your friend. Still, their speed is likely to take them out of range of the Synapse Creature power - be sure to monitor this and take care of 'em with some Instant Killing, should your opponent be so foolish.

 

Gargoyles are likely to rely upon surprise and Deep Striking to within firing range to disrupt your battle plans - don't let them. They're cheap, hardly better than an ordinary Gaunt, and die like the flies they are - one squad of bolters should cut them down to size.

 

Spore Mine clusters are convenient for those last few points - just a free-floating group of spore mines, drifting around the battlefield... they're too random for my taste, but some like them.

 

Zoanthropes. These guys are the psychic powerhouses and show it. With a 2+/6+ save, they're very durable. Here's where I cover psychic powers, and note that all but two of them DON'T require psychic tests. Catalyst

is nice if the 'nids think you may be in cover - it lets models that are 'killed' in CC still strike even after their death, but does require a psychic test. Psychic Scream drops Ld like a rock, and is cumulative in penalties, making it liked by players who enjoy seeing you run. The Horror makes it difficult to assault anyone with it - expect to see it on the Tyrant, but there are better powers available for 'thropes. Warp Blast, on the other hand, is nasty. With an S5 AP3 Blast or an S10 AP2 concentrated shot, only needing to take a psychic test with the second, it goes a long way toward evening the shootiness of this army up.

 

Biovores are dropping in popularity - with the nastiness of the Carnifex and the psychic abilities of the Zoanthropes, Spore Mines just come off... second best. Still, several of these in unison can really work a

number on your army, dropping Bio-Acid where you have clumps of troops. Try to take care of them with a single HB Speeder - it's easy VPs and insult to injury if you take them out.

 

Last... Carnifexes. Big and scary? YES. Invulnerable? Well, close to it with the right upgrades. However, those upgrades cost points, and those points are going towards a creature who is too slow to make it into CC

except in the last few turns and is going to be sucking up fire all the way. The nastiest way of using a Carnifex these days, I think, is in the way of shootiness. Given two guns, it can fire both; given two of the

same kind, it counts as twin-linked... a TW Barbed Strangler shot is enough to make me want to tear off those Scything Talon arms! The other upgrades are too numerous to list here, but it all boils down to one

thing: Don't let them get in close, and if they do get in close, have a hidden power fist nearby. Often, all those upgrades will have gone to a Tyrant's head, and he's got way too many points wrapped up in just one

model...

 

OK, because I know that this has gone around the boards once, I want to settle it once and for all (until an official FAQ comes out) Carnifexes CAN regenerate multiple Wounds, but once they die they're gone forever.

The relevant quote is:

 

 

...a surviving model with regenerate rolls a dice for each wound it has lost, and for each 6 rolled the creature regains one wound, up to its maximum total. (Italics my own, placed for emphasis on relevant words.)

 

 

That settles that, now onto tactics.

 

 

Ideally, a 'Nid player wants to swamp you with his smaller bugs while his larger ones move up close enough to back up the little ones - this tactic has remained the same since the very first Codex: Tyranids appeared way back in '93. ('95? somewhere in there.) Despite its age, it's effective still; but how can an intrepid player counter that?

 

Easily. Reduce his fast 'Nid broods in the one or two turns of firing you get to a point where, when they assault, they'll LOSE close combat. Most of the fast ones can't stand up to return close combat. It can be

hard to pull off, but don't be afraid to step CLOSER, into Rapid Fire range, if staying put means that you're just going to be assaulted next turn anyway by a larger Brood than is necessary to have. You can always

use your consolidation move to scoot away, after all...

 

Dealing with the bigger bugs, especially with the rise of Warriors and the inability to instakill them, can be trickier these days. Despite that, still take powerfists - the ability to wound them more often counts

for a lot.

 

One thing to remember, ONLY Monstrous Creatures block line of sight, their squads don't. He can't hide Carnifexes or even regular Warriors behind the smaller Tyrant Guard models; the only thing that Guard protect is their own Hive Tyrant. If he tries that, point him in the direction of the MC rules and ask him, "Where in the Tyrant Guard entry does it say that they're a monstrous creature? It just says 'deploys as' not

'counts as'..."

 

OK. Witchhunters time. Time for a break, though. Whew.

[Nidhogg_Rider]

When I think Nid, I think Heavy Bolter and Bolter, and when I think Carnifex or Broodlord, I think Exorcist.

[Mad Man Lotar]

Have any of you fought a completely shooty word bearers army? 84 infiltrating space marines armed with heavy weapons and plasma guns is no fun at all.

[Battle-Captain]

I'd just like to say that i've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread and even though some of the info is a little out of date now, there is some absolute gems of advice over the last 4 pages. Thanks to fanboy for writing it.

Has there been any moves to finish the tacticas at all, i may have missed some other linking threads?