Yet another rendition of my DIY chapter

[The 13th Goat]

Yeah, its spelt Beliefs. :)

[Gree]

I changed it.

[Octavulg]

The earliest records of the Eagle Claws over somewhere in the late 35th millennium, originally the chapter, was a fleet-based chapter believed to be of Guilliman’s stock, called the Amethyst Knights. Shortly after their founding they suffered an assault by a chaos raiding force.

 

Why rename themselves?

 

If you wanted them to use traitor geneseed (and you might as well, at this point), it would make sense to have them be part of the Cursed Founding. 40K buys heavily into fate and genetic impurity manifesting itself, so the Claws behaving like the EC would be perfectly plausible in-universe based on their heritage. If you could come up with some way to differentiate the color scheme from the Hawk Lords, as an aside, that'd seem good, though I can understand the reluctance with a 3000 point army painted. I'd recommend gold helmets, myself. :confused:

 

As a point, though? Don't try and emulate Hitler. On anything. Even haircut. It's...just not a good idea.

 

No need for the name change, really. All 'Amethyst Knights' provides is an excuse for the color scheme, and no excuse will be sufficient. Best to try a combination of subtlety and blatancy.

 

The chaos horde caught the chapter by surprise after they had finished suppressing a rebellion, the vile Clonemaster himself, Fabius Bile was rumored to have taken part in the attack at the Eagle Claws apothecarion ship.

 

Should be part of the previous paragraph.

 

Having a single ship dedicated to the Apothecarion is unwise. The term 'point failure source' comes to mind.

 

If you include Fabius, you need to at least make good use of him. The experiments are a nice touch, but throw in some rumours about why he attacked the Eagle Claws. If you make them part of the Cursed Founding, Bile could come for them because they're a fresh source of genuine Emperor's Children geneseed.

 

During the fighting there are dark rumors of twisted rituals and experiments Bile performed on captured marines, the Eagle Claws remained tight-lipped about the battle and refuse to speak about it to outsiders.

 

This cries out to have what the Inquisition has reconstructed from records et al. Don't leave a perfectly good point of expansion un-expanded.

 

The chapter beat off the attackers but not before suffering a large amount of casualties. The survivors regrouped under the leadership of Marius Findor, their newly appointed chapter master.

 

Findor seems a little...weak as a name, honestly. If you like it, feel free to keep it, but Garuda might make a better surname: it's one of the birds the phoenix is based on. Philostratus (first reference to the Phoenix in western culture, who should certainly be a Libarian at the least), Bennu (Egyptian Phoenix), or even Feng, Huang, or Fenghuang (parts of and the complete Chinese word for Phoenix). Wikipedia is awesome for sneaking in references to stuff.

 

Findor declared that the near destruction was the result of laxity and impurity; he said that the event would never happen again and the chapter must aspire to genetic purity in order to ensure that the chapter would never be destroyed or corrupted by the enemies of the Emperor. The ‘’crimes of Bile’’ would never be allowed to threaten the chapter again.

 

Good motivation. As mentioned above, there is the opportunity for further ties to the EC/Bile. If you wanted, you could have Findor lead an escape from Bile's prisons - raising the spectre of possible modification by Bile.

 

The chapter then sided with Thor’s growing movement; one of the exceptions to the Adeptus Astartes, due to what they felt was laxity by Vandire in allowing xenos to run free among the Imperium while he went mad. They fought hard in the crusade towards Terra, despite their limited numbers, and earned a fearsome reputation in the space boarding actions, although they took no action in the solar system itself due to the eventual need to reorganize and resupply.

 

Firstly, would they feel the crusade was efficient enough for their participation, or would they launch a more independent campaign? Would they even approve of the Ecclesiarchy at all?

 

You definitely need a complete and clear pattern of how your chapter thinks and what their motivations are before deciding how (and even whether) they participate in the Thorian Crusade (or whatever it's called). Laxity on the part of Vandire feels a little...weak as a motivation. Would not his madness itself be a sufficient motivation - the imperfect should not lead humanity? Give it a moderate bit of elaboration - it's an important event, it deserves some. Does Thor demonstrate perfection of thought or belief, perhaps, admirable even in his imperfection, while Vandire is, well, Vandire?

 

After the conclusion of the Apostasy the Eagle Claws received their rewards when they requested a new homeworld. They chose Asclepieion Major as their new homeworld and contsruected a fortress mosntsary.

 

Why name the planet after the god of healing (out of curiousity)?

 

Also, is asking for a reward for performing your duty really appropriate? Hardly seems honorable/perfect behavior. Did the Ecclesiarchy give up control of any worlds after the Age of Apostasy? You could claim that they stepped in to fill the power vacuum on a planet where Vandire had eliminated the traditional aristocracy - they were one of the chapters that reconquered it, and thus they felt it was their responsibility.

 

Marius Findor continued to lead the chapter until he was killed in one of the many crusades against the xenos who had taken the opportunity to conquer Imperial territories during the Age of Apostasy. His enraged honor guard hacked down the greenskin warlord responsible and the chapter finished its crusading operation.

 

Good. Is he particularly venerated, or do they simply see him as another leader - not deserving of praise beyond any other Chapter Master?

 

While the Eagle Claws rule the world they encourage competition among the tribes in order to create potential recruits and weed out the weak. However the Eagle Claws usually stop one of the tribes from completely destroying another, in order to maintain a balance.

 

It would seem logical that they'd attempt to mold their home world into something approaching the perfect human society - perhaps only on an individual city basis, so as to preserve competition, but you'd expect at least some changes.

 

The chapter chooses the strongest young warriors of the techno-clans once every fifty years, all tribal and clan differences are forgotten and left behind by years of training and conditioning, for when the recruits enter the Eagle Claws there is only the chapter from then on.

 

Do clans have their own cities, or do they have to co-exist in some of them (be a bit like Renaissance Italy, which seems appropriate)?

 

The chapter’s fortress monastery is based in the wind-swept Epidaurus Hinterlands, one of the harshest places on Asclepieion . The chapter also mains a secondary naval base on Asclepieion’s principal moon.

 

A few more details about the home world seem in order. How, exactly, do the marines relate to the people? How have they changed the world? How do people see the Marines?

 

As inheritors of Guilliman the Eagle Claws follow the codex astartes fairly closely, with the obvious exception of a larger than number of apothecaries, which the Eagle Claws will go to extreme lengths protect, even going to ignore battlefield objectives on occasion.

 

You kind skipped over why they have so many apothecaries. Should explain it. Also, ignoring battlefield objectives doesn't sound perfect...

 

You do explain it later, but you should explain it now.

 

The chapter by large considers battlefield tactics and wits to be more important than indicial feats of arms, since the chapter as a whole is considered more important the honor and ability of the individual warriors, although this Is not to say the chapter shies away from combat, indeed, as with all Astartes chapters the Eagle Claws boast many fine and skilled fighters.

 

This would seem to point in the direction of Marius not being venerated, just as a point.

 

The Eagle Claws consider the surivial of the chapter to be more important than the death of an individual marine and the battle brothers are expceted to trade their lives at a moment’s notice for that of an Apothecary.

 

Does this view extend to their relationship with the Imperium? Or do they see themselves as more important (hypocritical though that would be of them)?

 

* * *

 

1400 words. That's about 1/3 the length of a GW IA. While I often advocate keeping them shorter, you can't really explore a chapter in 1400 words. I worry that you're not interested in exploring your chapter fully. Alternately, you may just be running into the problem I find when I write essays without sufficient inspiration - you're writing the minimum necessary. The chapter deserves more, however (or it should, at the least), and I think you should try to provide it. You are, however, not wasting words, so it could be worse. :P

 

You should expand their beliefs further - if possible, every aspect of their philosophy should be included. How they see themselves, the Imperium, various aspects of the Imperium, their home world, humanity, aliens. And why. Tell us about them, in short. Everything you can think of. Not what they do, but why they do it.

 

You also have a lot of typoes - the writing needs to be polished, though the content should be finalized first.

 

I think this version is something of an improvement on the previous. Less polished, but likely better core material.

[Gree]

1400 words. That's about 1/3 the length of a GW IA. While I often advocate keeping them shorter, you can't really explore a chapter in 1400 words. I worry that you're not interested in exploring your chapter fully. Alternately, you may just be running into the problem I find when I write essays without sufficient inspiration - you're writing the minimum necessary. The chapter deserves more, however (or it should, at the least), and I think you should try to provide it. You are, however, not wasting words, so it could be worse. :lol:

 

You should expand their beliefs further - if possible, every aspect of their philosophy should be included. How they see themselves, the Imperium, various aspects of the Imperium, their home world, humanity, aliens. And why. Tell us about them, in short. Everything you can think of. Not what they do, but why they do it.

 

You also have a lot of typoes - the writing needs to be polished, though the content should be finalized first.

 

I think this version is something of an improvement on the previous. Less polished, but likely better core material.

 

At this point it's a rough draft that I have gotten the core ideals out.

 

The earliest records of the Eagle Claws over somewhere in the late 35th millennium, originally the chapter, was a fleet-based chapter believed to be of Guilliman’s stock, called the Amethyst Knights. Shortly after their founding they suffered an assault by a chaos raiding force.

 

Why rename themselves?

 

If you wanted them to use traitor geneseed (and you might as well, at this point), it would make sense to have them be part of the Cursed Founding. 40K buys heavily into fate and genetic impurity manifesting itself, so the Claws behaving like the EC would be perfectly plausible in-universe based on their heritage. If you could come up with some way to differentiate the color scheme from the Hawk Lords, as an aside, that'd seem good, though I can understand the reluctance with a 3000 point army painted. I'd recommend gold helmets, myself. :D

 

As a point, though? Don't try and emulate Hitler. On anything. Even haircut. It's...just not a good idea.

 

No need for the name change, really. All 'Amethyst Knights' provides is an excuse for the color scheme, and no excuse will be sufficient. Best to try a combination of subtlety and blatancy.

 

 

The problem here is giving them a reason for a name, How do I justify ''Eagle Claws''?

 

The chaos horde caught the chapter by surprise after they had finished suppressing a rebellion, the vile Clonemaster himself, Fabius Bile was rumored to have taken part in the attack at the Eagle Claws apothecarion ship.

 

Should be part of the previous paragraph.

 

Having a single ship dedicated to the Apothecarion is unwise. The term 'point failure source' comes to mind.

 

If you include Fabius, you need to at least make good use of him. The experiments are a nice touch, but throw in some rumours about why he attacked the Eagle Claws. If you make them part of the Cursed Founding, Bile could come for them because they're a fresh source of genuine Emperor's Children geneseed.

 

 

I am hesitiant to use the cursed founding, not only are they suposed to have flawed geneseed but they are a bit overused in my personal opinion.

 

Now I am trying to make them move to a image of ''purple ultramarines'' than the pre-heresy Emperor's Children at this point.

 

The chapter then sided with Thor’s growing movement; one of the exceptions to the Adeptus Astartes, due to what they felt was laxity by Vandire in allowing xenos to run free among the Imperium while he went mad. They fought hard in the crusade towards Terra, despite their limited numbers, and earned a fearsome reputation in the space boarding actions, although they took no action in the solar system itself due to the eventual need to reorganize and resupply.

 

Firstly, would they feel the crusade was efficient enough for their participation, or would they launch a more independent campaign? Would they even approve of the Ecclesiarchy at all?

 

You definitely need a complete and clear pattern of how your chapter thinks and what their motivations are before deciding how (and even whether) they participate in the Thorian Crusade (or whatever it's called). Laxity on the part of Vandire feels a little...weak as a motivation. Would not his madness itself be a sufficient motivation - the imperfect should not lead humanity? Give it a moderate bit of elaboration - it's an important event, it deserves some. Does Thor demonstrate perfection of thought or belief, perhaps, admirable even in his imperfection, while Vandire is, well, Vandire?

 

 

I would make the point of them blaming Vandire for allowing Bile to sneak into Imperial space and for his madness.

 

After the conclusion of the Apostasy the Eagle Claws received their rewards when they requested a new homeworld. They chose Asclepieion Major as their new homeworld and contsruected a fortress mosntsary.

 

Why name the planet after the god of healing (out of curiousity)?

 

Also, is asking for a reward for performing your duty really appropriate? Hardly seems honorable/perfect behavior. Did the Ecclesiarchy give up control of any worlds after the Age of Apostasy? You could claim that they stepped in to fill the power vacuum on a planet where Vandire had eliminated the traditional aristocracy - they were one of the chapters that reconquered it, and thus they felt it was their responsibility.

 

 

I named it after the god of healing because of the whole apothecary angle.

 

Now for the homeworld should I change it so that they where never a fleet-based chapter and instead where attacked and managed to drive off the attackers.

 

The earliest records of the Eagle Claws over somewhere in the late 35th millennium, originally the chapter, was a fleet-based chapter believed to be of Guilliman’s stock, called the Amethyst Knights. Shortly after their founding they suffered an assault by a chaos raiding force.

 

Why rename themselves?

 

If you wanted them to use traitor geneseed (and you might as well, at this point), it would make sense to have them be part of the Cursed Founding. 40K buys heavily into fate and genetic impurity manifesting itself, so the Claws behaving like the EC would be perfectly plausible in-universe based on their heritage. If you could come up with some way to differentiate the color scheme from the Hawk Lords, as an aside, that'd seem good, though I can understand the reluctance with a 3000 point army painted. I'd recommend gold helmets, myself. :)

 

As a point, though? Don't try and emulate Hitler. On anything. Even haircut. It's...just not a good idea.

 

No need for the name change, really. All 'Amethyst Knights' provides is an excuse for the color scheme, and no excuse will be sufficient. Best to try a combination of subtlety and blatancy.

 

The chaos horde caught the chapter by surprise after they had finished suppressing a rebellion, the vile Clonemaster himself, Fabius Bile was rumored to have taken part in the attack at the Eagle Claws apothecarion ship.

 

Should be part of the previous paragraph.

 

Having a single ship dedicated to the Apothecarion is unwise. The term 'point failure source' comes to mind.

 

If you include Fabius, you need to at least make good use of him. The experiments are a nice touch, but throw in some rumours about why he attacked the Eagle Claws. If you make them part of the Cursed Founding, Bile could come for them because they're a fresh source of genuine Emperor's Children geneseed.

 

During the fighting there are dark rumors of twisted rituals and experiments Bile performed on captured marines, the Eagle Claws remained tight-lipped about the battle and refuse to speak about it to outsiders.

 

This cries out to have what the Inquisition has reconstructed from records et al. Don't leave a perfectly good point of expansion un-expanded.

 

The chapter beat off the attackers but not before suffering a large amount of casualties. The survivors regrouped under the leadership of Marius Findor, their newly appointed chapter master.

 

Findor seems a little...weak as a name, honestly. If you like it, feel free to keep it, but Garuda might make a better surname: it's one of the birds the phoenix is based on. Philostratus (first reference to the Phoenix in western culture, who should certainly be a Libarian at the least), Bennu (Egyptian Phoenix), or even Feng, Huang, or Fenghuang (parts of and the complete Chinese word for Phoenix). Wikipedia is awesome for sneaking in references to stuff.

 

Findor declared that the near destruction was the result of laxity and impurity; he said that the event would never happen again and the chapter must aspire to genetic purity in order to ensure that the chapter would never be destroyed or corrupted by the enemies of the Emperor. The ‘’crimes of Bile’’ would never be allowed to threaten the chapter again.

 

Good motivation. As mentioned above, there is the opportunity for further ties to the EC/Bile. If you wanted, you could have Findor lead an escape from Bile's prisons - raising the spectre of possible modification by Bile.

 

The chapter then sided with Thor’s growing movement; one of the exceptions to the Adeptus Astartes, due to what they felt was laxity by Vandire in allowing xenos to run free among the Imperium while he went mad. They fought hard in the crusade towards Terra, despite their limited numbers, and earned a fearsome reputation in the space boarding actions, although they took no action in the solar system itself due to the eventual need to reorganize and resupply.

 

Firstly, would they feel the crusade was efficient enough for their participation, or would they launch a more independent campaign? Would they even approve of the Ecclesiarchy at all?

 

You definitely need a complete and clear pattern of how your chapter thinks and what their motivations are before deciding how (and even whether) they participate in the Thorian Crusade (or whatever it's called). Laxity on the part of Vandire feels a little...weak as a motivation. Would not his madness itself be a sufficient motivation - the imperfect should not lead humanity? Give it a moderate bit of elaboration - it's an important event, it deserves some. Does Thor demonstrate perfection of thought or belief, perhaps, admirable even in his imperfection, while Vandire is, well, Vandire?

 

After the conclusion of the Apostasy the Eagle Claws received their rewards when they requested a new homeworld. They chose Asclepieion Major as their new homeworld and contsruected a fortress mosntsary.

 

Why name the planet after the god of healing (out of curiousity)?

 

Also, is asking for a reward for performing your duty really appropriate? Hardly seems honorable/perfect behavior. Did the Ecclesiarchy give up control of any worlds after the Age of Apostasy? You could claim that they stepped in to fill the power vacuum on a planet where Vandire had eliminated the traditional aristocracy - they were one of the chapters that reconquered it, and thus they felt it was their responsibility.

 

Marius Findor continued to lead the chapter until he was killed in one of the many crusades against the xenos who had taken the opportunity to conquer Imperial territories during the Age of Apostasy. His enraged honor guard hacked down the greenskin warlord responsible and the chapter finished its crusading operation.

 

Good. Is he particularly venerated, or do they simply see him as another leader - not deserving of praise beyond any other Chapter Master?

 

While the Eagle Claws rule the world they encourage competition among the tribes in order to create potential recruits and weed out the weak. However the Eagle Claws usually stop one of the tribes from completely destroying another, in order to maintain a balance.

 

It would seem logical that they'd attempt to mold their home world into something approaching the perfect human society - perhaps only on an individual city basis, so as to preserve competition, but you'd expect at least some changes.

 

The chapter chooses the strongest young warriors of the techno-clans once every fifty years, all tribal and clan differences are forgotten and left behind by years of training and conditioning, for when the recruits enter the Eagle Claws there is only the chapter from then on.

 

Do clans have their own cities, or do they have to co-exist in some of them (be a bit like Renaissance Italy, which seems appropriate)?

 

The chapter’s fortress monastery is based in the wind-swept Epidaurus Hinterlands, one of the harshest places on Asclepieion . The chapter also mains a secondary naval base on Asclepieion’s principal moon.

 

A few more details about the home world seem in order. How, exactly, do the marines relate to the people? How have they changed the world? How do people see the Marines?

 

 

The marines see the people as recruiting stock and to not wish to rule beyond the bare nessescity, they are warriors first and wish to concentrate fully on that.

 

The chapter by large considers battlefield tactics and wits to be more important than indicial feats of arms, since the chapter as a whole is considered more important the honor and ability of the individual warriors, although this Is not to say the chapter shies away from combat, indeed, as with all Astartes chapters the Eagle Claws boast many fine and skilled fighters.

 

This would seem to point in the direction of Marius not being venerated, just as a point.

 

 

The Eagle Claws revere Marius not because of his combat skills but because of his leadership in reforming the chapter.

[War Angel]

"The problem here is giving them a reason for a name, How do I justify ''Eagle Claws''?"

 

 

chapters where often named before they had been formed. you dont need to justify a name unless youre changing the chapters name, which is rarely done unless changeing loyaltys

[Octavulg]

The problem here is giving them a reason for a name, How do I justify ''Eagle Claws''?

 

As War Angel said, you don't necessarily need a reason.

 

That, or it's a representation of their position in the Imperium, whose symbol is (after all), the eagle. As the claws of the Eagle/Imperium, they are the instrument through which the Emperor strikes.

 

I am hesitiant to use the cursed founding, not only are they suposed to have flawed geneseed but they are a bit overused in my personal opinion.

 

Traitor geneseed is flawed, no? Perhaps an attempt to remove the flaws which Adepts saw in EC geneseed encouraged the Eagle Claws to follow the paths of their forebears almost exactly.

 

I admit, it's not the best option in the world. But you certainly could do it.

 

Now I am trying to make them move to a image of ''purple ultramarines'' than the pre-heresy Emperor's Children at this point.

 

The one problem with that is that the Ultramarines are a Mary-Sue chapter, so you'd be trading one flawed concept for another.

 

I would make the point of them blaming Vandire for allowing Bile to sneak into Imperial space and for his madness.

 

Ooooh. Good point. You could go on a bit about how initially, his madness merely concerned them, but after dealing with Bile they both craved vengeance and saw the weakness and imperfection it represented. Character development is lovely.

 

Now for the homeworld should I change it so that they where never a fleet-based chapter and instead where attacked and managed to drive off the attackers.

 

Personally, I liked the solution I proposed initially, but you could do what you suggest. Problem is, "Chaos Marines attack Chapter home world" is done almost routinely, while "Chaos Marines attack chapter fleet" is done rather less (if only because there're fewer fleet-based chapters).

 

Consider the whole "recaptured from Vandire" angle, if you have not. It's certainly not unworkable - it just seems out of character for your chapter to ask for a homeworld (especially as a reward for their services).

 

The Eagle Claws revere Marius not because of his combat skills but because of his leadership in reforming the chapter.

 

Fair point.

 

Consider the other points I mentioned/questions I raised. If you aren't working on this in a separate document, I seriously recommend you do so - you'll be surprised how much it helps both organization and the writing in general.

[Gree]

I just changed it, agin.

 

I assure you that I am not a Neo-Nazi by the way, I an not a racist or anti-semite. I even have a jewish cousin.

 

As for the Eagle Claws I have decided to change them from a fleet based chapter and have them take thier name from an animal on the homwowlrd, just simpler that way. althouhg I feel that the use of ''chaos fleet attacks homeworld is a bit overused, bit I don't know any way else to put it.

 

As for the Ultramairnes being as Mary sue chapter, I would prefer to ignore the 5th edition fluff and go on to the Index astartes version instead.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Gree

[War Angel]

ugh, what part is it that you changed?

[Gree]

ugh, what part is it that you changed?

 

Everything

[The 13th Goat]

If you want to move in an ultramarine direction, go for it. I'm getting a little bored of this "The Ultras R Da Best"/"Ultras Suck" mentality that gets thrown around. (Sqinting accusingly at Oct :( )

 

The Ultramarines are a good chapter, and although they did recieve a dispoportinate amount in the codex, that doesn't reflect on the Chapter or the players, mearly the management in charge of the codex. Ignoring the blatant self elevating comments like "the greatest chapter" (which i've heard used in other codex's and chapters before, so i really think it was a personal opinion rather than grafted fact), the chapter have an excellently crafted fluff that is worthy of respect. I don't love the Ultras, and was annoyed when i saw the codex. But i still think their concept is cool, the whole romans in space vibe. I personally think if you switched to a more Ultra feel, it would compliment your chapter nicely.

 

 

P.S: Oct, before we end up counter pointing each other, is their a place on the website that we can do this seperatly. I know previos threads have been closed, but i wouldn't mind opening a thread that only brings factual critisism to the table without it decending into chaos! :D

[Octavulg]

I just changed it, agin.

 

Comments on it are at the end of this post.

 

I assure you that I am not a Neo-Nazi by the way, I an not a racist or anti-semite. I even have a jewish cousin.

 

I was pretty sure you weren't. However, saying things like "y'know, like Hitler did" when talking about your DIY chapter does raise the concern a little - and certainly raises the concern you might be perceived as such if you're not careful.

 

As for the Eagle Claws I have decided to change them from a fleet based chapter and have them take thier name from an animal on the homwowlrd, just simpler that way. althouhg I feel that the use of ''chaos fleet attacks homeworld is a bit overused, bit I don't know any way else to put it.

 

There was nothing wrong with the way you had it set up, just with the way they got the home world in the end. Also, taking the name of a chapter from an animal on the home world is also overdone (both First Founding Legions that have animal names do it, and that's not even getting into the DIYs).

 

As for the Ultramairnes being as Mary sue chapter, I would prefer to ignore the 5th edition fluff and go on to the Index astartes version instead.

 

They were Mary-Sues long before the new codex. That just added to it. I explain below.

 

* * *

 

If you want to move in an ultramarine direction, go for it. I'm getting a little bored of this "The Ultras R Da Best"/"Ultras Suck" mentality that gets thrown around. (Sqinting accusingly at Oct msn-wink.gif )

 

I subscribe to no such mentality. There are interpretations of the Ultramarines which are downright interesting. That said, GW's interpretation does not appear to be one of them. :)

 

Ignoring the blatant self elevating comments like "the greatest chapter" (which i've heard used in other codex's and chapters before, so i really think it was a personal opinion rather than grafted fact), the chapter have an excellently crafted fluff that is worthy of respect. I don't love the Ultras, and was annoyed when i saw the codex. But i still think their concept is cool, the whole romans in space vibe. I personally think if you switched to a more Ultra feel, it would compliment your chapter nicely.

 

Firstly, that "greatest chapter" nonsense dates from 2nd edition, and has been repeated in every iteration of their fluff since (and each time, without proper explanation or clarification).

 

Secondly, the "Romans in space" angle isn't the problem (though it's also got heavy amounts of "Spartans in Space").

 

Why the Ultramarines are a Mary-Sue Chapter (taken originally from my post here (followup discussion not recommended. May cause head trauma upon contact with desk.).

 

"They're basically an official Mary Sue chapter. You may disagree, but look at it this way:

 

They're the bestest marines ever, everybody has to follow their way of fighting because it's so awesome, everyone in the Imperium loves them, and they've got an empire of eight planets (even though most chapters only are allowed one), which they rule directly, and it's more awesome than anywhere else and contributes more than anywhere else. Oh, and they were way, way bigger than all the other legions because they were so much more awesome, and their geneseed was extra perfect so it's virtually all anyone uses.

 

All you need to do is take out a few commas and periods, and remove the capitals, and it's every really bad post in Liber Astartes."

 

Added to that, you have how their command staff are all apparently the best at what they do in the galaxy, the way (in the new codex) everyone worships them and falls down before them, and the massive amounts of general hypocrisy they get away with (they have an empire and Guilliman is evidently flat-out obeyed by other Space Marine chapters - exactly the point of splitting into chapters! Not.).

 

So don't imitate the Ultramarines. At least, not in the points mentioned above. (A note: much of their adulation comes from the Imperium, which can thus be interpreted as meaning they're...not that nice. However, the tone still greatly resembles above, and it seems fair to assume from recent events that GW doesn't take that view).

 

P.S: Oct, before we end up counter pointing each other, is their a place on the website that we can do this seperatly. I know previos threads have been closed, but i wouldn't mind opening a thread that only brings factual critisism to the table without it decending into chaos! tongue.gif

 

This is relevant to the discussion at hand, since it's discussing something relevant to his chapter.

 

* * *

 

The earliest records of the Eagle Claws over somewhere in the late 35th millennium, the Claws where a newly founded chapter of Guilliman

[Gree]

I just changed it, agin.

 

Comments on it are at the end of this post.

 

I assure you that I am not a Neo-Nazi by the way, I an not a racist or anti-semite. I even have a jewish cousin.

 

I was pretty sure you weren't. However, saying things like "y'know, like Hitler did" when talking about your DIY chapter does raise the concern a little - and certainly raises the concern you might be perceived as such if you're not careful.

 

 

That was a poor chioce of words, I'll admit, was was trying to play on the whole ''Imperium are space nazi-communists''

 

As for the Eagle Claws I have decided to change them from a fleet based chapter and have them take thier name from an animal on the homwowlrd, just simpler that way. althouhg I feel that the use of ''chaos fleet attacks homeworld is a bit overused, bit I don't know any way else to put it.

 

There was nothing wrong with the way you had it set up, just with the way they got the home world in the end. Also, taking the name of a chapter from an animal on the home world is also overdone (both First Founding Legions that have animal names do it, and that's not even getting into the DIYs).

 

How abotut they desired a better recruiting base and felt that they where at too much of a risk with a fleet of ships and that a fortress monsatary was easier to defend?

 

Ultramarines snip

 

I would ask you not to debate about it, it has been done to death already and I don't think I will be having my chapter master punch out an Avatar anytime soon. I would prefer to concentrate on my chapter.

 

It's improving. However, a lot of stuff that is separate paragraphs should be part of other ones. Also, you should elaborate a little on many points - you're telling us the bare minimum necessary, and a little more would be nice. Alternately, add more bare minimum.

 

At this point I aim to get set on a basic core before I do anything else.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Gree

[Octavulg]

How abotut they desired a better recruiting base and felt that they where at too much of a risk with a fleet of ships and that a fortress monsatary was easier to defend?

 

That seems an admirable explanation. It seriously wouldn't be unreasonable for them to have basically conquered the place from Vandire.

 

I would ask you not to debate about it, it has been done to death already and I don't think I will be having my chapter master punch out an Avatar anytime soon. I would prefer to concentrate on my chapter.

 

Fair enough.

 

Just don't do any of the things I mention that they do. :)

 

At this point I aim to get set on a basic core before I do anything else.

 

A sensible method.

 

Really, the basic core does seem pretty solid at this point. I'll go over it again some time.

[Gree]

How abotut they desired a better recruiting base and felt that they where at too much of a risk with a fleet of ships and that a fortress monsatary was easier to defend?

 

That seems an admirable explanation. It seriously wouldn't be unreasonable for them to have basically conquered the place from Vandire.

 

 

That sounds like a good idea. Sine the planet is suposed to be a death world I imagine Thor would be glad to give it away.

 

 

Fair enough.

 

Just don't do any of the things I mention that they do. :)

 

It's fine, I'll just have the chapter master punch out a Bloodthirster instead. :) Just joking.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Gree

[Gree]

I now having the training cadre be from the Eagle Warriors, it seems to fit. I also added the part about the Hawk Lords colors. I only just hope GW has then Third founding or something, so I don't get screwed over fluffwise, like many chapters in the new codex.

[War Angel]

You could say that youre chapter was fleet based, but after having lost alot of bodys on a planet, they sorta settled there to honour there death site or some such stuff.

 

 

custards last stand has a grave stand over each spot where they found a body....

[Gree]

At this point I feel that I want a homeworld for them.

[Severus6]

You of course mean Custers' last stand as in George Armstrong Custer at the Battle of the Little Bighorn (1876) not custard as in a type of pudding that goes in a pastry,... ;)

 

Severus6

[War Angel]

sorry, i hadnt gone to chow yet, i was thinking of food.... i did that a month ago, wrote up "Area free of food" insted of "Fod"

 

 

lol

 

hmmmm custard.

 

 

ive been there by the way, Every day is custards last stand against me. (he losses alot)

[Gree]

A sensible method.

Really, the basic core does seem pretty solid at this point. I'll go over it again some time.

 

I plan to add a couple of sidebars, one on the current chapter master, one on the 2nd company captain, as well as one detailing an incident where the Eagle Claws and another chapter where suprussing a rebeelion and the Eagle Claws went on to destroy the rest of the PDF as well as the traitor leaders, contrary to the other chapter who wished to leave the rest of the PDf intact and let them surrender.

 

I was thinking on using a chapter like the Salamanders or some other liberal chapter for the effect.

[The 13th Goat]

Careful. If PDF turned traitor then surrendered, they would be similarly executed. Like in the Dark Crusade, the Blood Ravens had to fight the IG, sparred those that survived but executed those that turned traitor and actually helped the Ravens. Disloyalty is punishable by death. Also, try to avoid the cliche that if their humane their Salamanders. Maybe someone like Sisters or someone would be better suited.

[Gree]

Careful. If PDF turned traitor then surrendered, they would be similarly executed. Like in the Dark Crusade, the Blood Ravens had to fight the IG, sparred those that survived but executed those that turned traitor and actually helped the Ravens. Disloyalty is punishable by death. Also, try to avoid the cliche that if their humane their Salamanders. Maybe someone like Sisters or someone would be better suited.

 

Maybe, I was inspired by reading the short story in the 3rd edition codex about the White Panthers going a bit far.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Gree

[Gree]

Here are major personalites of the chapter I plan to put in as side-bars.

 

 

 

Machaon Garuda is the current chapter master of the Eagle Claws. He was recruited from Trikala, one of the most remote and forbidding tribes of Asclepieion, initially he was unremarkable, but this changed when he slew a qegoth patriarch, one of the most dangerous predators on Asclepieion, a rare feat.

 

When he entered the ranks of the chapter, he rose slowly but steadily, gaining the trust and admiration of his peers, brutally honest he is a stoic, reserved marine who is deeply devoted to the well-being of the chapter.

 

While he is possible the greatest warrior in the chapter he himself prefers to completely plan out all his operations in detail and make sure that nothing is left to change, he is the very exemplar of what it means to be an Eagle Claws.

 

He is a peerless strategist and tactician, having mastered both attack and defense, while some have criticized his style of warfare as a bland and almost mathematical manner, Garuda says he simply cares about the results.

 

 

Julian Basiclus is the captain of the 2nd company and one of the Eagle Claws greatest heroes. He was the son of one of the noble chieftains of Sicyon, one of the greatest tribes on Aclepieion. He was already being groomed to be a fearsome warrior and a leader when the Eagle Claws inducted him into the chapter.

 

He is a proud, intelligent marine who is regarded as somewhat of a radical by some of the more conservative chapter elements for avoiding contact with Tau forces on Karovioa Prime in order to quell a daemonic excursion instead before going after the Tau forces. However and accusations where put to rest when Basiclus led the assault that drove the xenos from the planet.

 

Although skilled in all forms of warfare Basiclus favors the offensive and is noted for his aggressive tactical views. He himself favors the armored spearhead tactics for deep penetrating strikes into the heart of enemy formations in order to end the battle quickly so he can move on into the next target. While he is a mediocre strategist he is an excellent tactical commander.

 

He is an accomplished swordsman, armed with a master-crafted relic power sword that bated back to the founding of the chapter, and wears a suit of ornate power armor inherited from one of the Eagle Warriors training cadre.

 

 

Yonaz Philostratus is the Chief Apothecary of the Eagle Claws, a very prestigious and important position in a chapter that already values the role of the apothecary very highly. Despite competition for the position Philostratus did not seek the position himself and was quite surprised when he was appointed to it.

 

He is a masterful healer, having saved many lives and gene-stock of the chapter. He posses a sense of black humor that disguises his own iron-shod sense of duty of possible the most important position in the chapter.

[Gree]

I will be submitting thse as side-bars then if there are no problems.

[Gree]

For the chapter symbol, I was orignally going with the Emperor's Children symbol, but that would be too obvious, I'm thinking I could justify it, saying that they took their heraldry from the Eagle warriors? Or is there any other idea I can use?