Gene-Seed Discussion Part II

[Ferrata]

After the first gene-seed discussion started, Rex hinted that he would have liked another old thread being resurrected, a discussion also concerning gene-seed. Being the fool I am, I promised him I would get round to it. Finally, I did. Instead of forcing you all to re-read the old thread (found here), I have summarised the main points from the old thread below, thus a new, fresh discussion can start.

 

[quote name='Rex

[Aurelius Rex]

Looking back on this thread I am still of the opinion that the chapter should be influenced by both factors. Grounded in the nature of the parent legion geneseed so that it is still recognisable as coming from that geneline, but influenced enough by external factors so that it is a distinct entity in it's own right rather than a photocopy. :unsure:

[Ferrata]

I'm still in favour that Nurture is the major factor of Chapter personality, while the Nature has a small (direct) effect upon the chapter. A chapter will inherit the physical traits of their Parent chapter (basic genetics), and these effects could favour certain personalities. i.e. Blood Angel succesors (due to the Curse) are more likely to be offensive over defensive. I'm still not buying this Genetic Memory to a large degree, I can see it being on par with young animals instintly knowing how to walk, but not to the extent that was push in the original discussion.

 

Nurture on the other hand, will effect the chapter in a large amount. Firstly, the culture which they have major contact with in their early life will pass onto the chapter. If the culture of their homeworld is feral, this is likely to be passed onto the blank-sheeted chapter. Then outside factors, such as accompanying chapters in campaigns, wars etc will effect how they see themselves.

 

This is a very brief opinion though, lets see what others have to say first.

 

Ferrata

[Mrph45]

I agree with the concept that both apply. The geneseed gives the marine a physical and mental charectaristic (and any umm flaws). Longitivity, long teeth, increased rate of psychich powers, these are most often in the gene seed. The fists mastering of siege warfare, Dark Angels stubborness and isolationism, or Ravenguard's hit and run tactics I believe are more of a genetic "memory" or preference if you will. The temperment of the marines is more influenced by their homeworlds. The Salamanders are slower due to the high gravity, the Iron Hands abhor weakness because survival on their world is only a matter of strength and will are nature responses from their homeworld.

[Apemantus]

I'm still in favour that Nurture is the major factor of Chapter personality,

I agree with Ferrata, I think a Chapter's home world or where ever they are based has a huge impact, take the Mortifactors, they are a chapter that has been molded by their home world and not by their gene-seed, IMO i think a chapter prefers to steer it's own path, take the Imperial Fists, it mentioned in a white dwarf that they were the loyalist chapter with the most experience in siege warfare more so then even that of the Ultramarines yet the crimson fists and most notable the Black Templars have gone down a different path. Also I think events in a chapters history will also change the chapter.

 

I feel that the chapters gene-seed shapes a marine's appearance and some of his minor personality traits but it's their home world and their new recruits that shape the overall chapter and their practices

[Race Bannon]

I will further echo that both apply. I am supremly confident that Space Marine Chapters are created with Nature in mind and developed through Nuturing factors. And this is absolute OR you do get a copy of the parent Chapter.

 

Having said that I can see where the parent Chapter gene-seed and the end result (maturity?) of the Chapter are divergent.

 

It has already been discussed that more recent Blood Angel successors may not have the Red Thirst. Or they might. It's up to the author to develop the nurturing factors to explain this. OR maybe the inherent Red Thirst behavior has been filtered away through successive ... successors.

 

But the Blood Angels are an extreme and break almost all the rules. Also, IIRC it has been discussed that "filtering" the gene-seed does not or cannot happen as a basic rule of genetics.

 

I think, for DIY creation, it is important that the author provide the genetic background. This provides a baseline for the inherent tendencies of the Chapter. After that, everything else makes the Chapter.

 

The trick is describing the nurturing factors in a way where it makes sense.

 

As an aside, the Raptors (to follow the example from AR) were not described in the Taros Campaign to be like the Raven Guard. What was described is what any Space Marine Chapter would do ... and they fought on a desert world :P

[Moogoo the Great]

I too think that it's more nurture than nature- that leaves more room for different DIY chapters than the simple passing-on of genetic traits. After all, if geneseed made that much of a difference, my Revelators would all be frothing zealots like the Imperial Fists and Black Templars. Well, moreso than they already are, in any case. :P Instead, they are influenced mostly by their intense shame of losing two companies to chaos, and the ritual fight to rid themselves of impurity.

[Grimdarkness]

Dark Angels stubbornness and isolationism,

 

I have never understood this no where in the fluff dose it say the lion was a stubborn or intractable man but no where is it disproved.What is known is that the lion was a tactical genus who was second only to horus in victories during the crusade his son's seem to have forgotten this in order to stand and blaze away at the enemy.They are insular and secretive because of the events on Caliban that shattered there home world and lost them there primarch.It was that one event that shaped the D.A's history until all the fallen repent and the sword is reforged there shame and there sins will be hidden away from all but the lion and the emperor.

 

The nature of the dark angel's was one of service and Honor first to the order on caliban then to the emperor and his crusade. The nurture of the Dark Angels is one of dark secrets and terrible truths that have to be hidden and made right.

 

The great crusade a shinning order of Knights the 10'00 years since a monastic order bent on it's own agenda and protective of it's shame.

[Mrph45]

take the Imperial Fists, it mentioned in a white dwarf that they were the loyalist chapter with the most experience in siege warfare more so then even that of the Ultramarines yet the crimson fists and most notable the Black Templars have gone down a different path.

 

But they also share the same temperment of the fists in that all three are noted for their almost complete disregard in withdrawing from a fight when it is tactically sound (IF and Iron Warriors, CF and the Orks, and Templars an everybody. There is something in there geneseed that continues to imbue them with the Dorns steadfastness and determination despite the millenia. They may take different formations, but they are similar in disposition.

[Ferrata]

Personally, I think comparing 2nd Founding Chapters is flawed, as all the originals marines all shared the same experiences from the Legion. So all the DA 2nd Founders are secretive, not because of their nature, because they all suffered the betrayl at the end of the heresy. All the IF 2nd Founders are stubborn, a trait picked up from Dorn directly, not through his gene-seed.

 

Ferrata

[Dasleah]

I've always held the personal theory that doctrine eventually becomes geneseed. Due to the innate psychic-ness of the human race, I've always thought that eventually the doctrine and beliefs with 'mutate' the recipents gene-seed until the traits and characteristics are carried along not only in teachings, but also by the virtue of the very thing that makes them Space Marines. Undoubtadley all the Primarches were powerful enough psychics that they could of unconciously imprint their personalities into their geneseed. Sangi went one step further and even imprinted his memories into his, with a little help from Horus, of course.

 

Just an idea.

[Darrell]

If you want to take modern psychology (Or what I know of it) into the 41st century, then studies with identical twins seperated at birth show that quite a lot of our personality seems to come from our genes. I believe the Nature/Nurture ratio has been estimated at 60/40. Nurture, however, does have an impact, and can make a large difference, but in the end it is hard to fool Mother Nature. Two childrens can be raised by seperate parents, one set extrovertive and one set introvertive. One child is introvertive at birth, the other is extrovertive. The first child raised by the first set will be more outgoing than she would have been at birth, but she would not be as extrovertive as someone who was outgoing at birth. The second child raised by the second set of parents would be more shy than she would have been at birth, but she would probably still be more outgoing than the first child, and the first child would be more shy than the second.

 

So, it is obvious that both aspects control how a person matures (And although a modern day human is different than a 41st century genetically engineered killing machine, it's the only comparison we can make), but studies seem to indicate that, ultimately, genetics wins out over environment. That is not to say a child won't be different from the parent, despite sharing the same genes (As anyone who has had kids could testify), however it can be said that the apple does not fall far from the tree.

 

I would say that, ultimately, geneseed would bleed through to the successor Chapter. Although, it may bleed through very strongly or faded, depending on the Nurture factor--either way, the stain will be there. The real question, then, is how much of the Chapters of Legends is in their geneseed, and how much is just learned doctrine/ritual?

[Mrph45]

Dark Angels stubbornness and isolationism,

 

I have never understood this no where in the fluff dose it say the lion was a stubborn or intractable man but no where is it disproved.

 

I was a bit wrong with the isolationism ,I see that as more developed from the primarch's having grown up on Caliban alone surrounded by Chaos leaving him being guarded about trusting others completely.

[Ferrata]

I'm not sure if I#m buying what your saying Darrell. I haven't looked into any deep scientific research, so I would be intrested if you could post some links, but I believe that genetics has little effect on our personallity. Even if your post was indeed correct, I think it would fail to translate over into the 40k universe because the Nurture aspects are amplified a large amount.

 

Firstly, the home worlds would vary a great amount. The people on the planet, the enviroment and situation would all effect the young chapter. This could be similar to sending on of the twins to a rich American family, and the other to a poor Iranian family, extreme circumstances.

 

Then you have the effect of early wars on the chapter. These would have varying effects on the chapter, such as combat doctrine change or even radical organisation changes. I'm not sure what the real-world comparison would be, but something like being heavily bullied and being the bully.

 

This is the reason I think nurture has such a big impact upon a chapter over nature, because everything what happens in the 40k universe is so much more then up-on earth.

 

Ferrata

[Darrell]

I'll see if I can get some specific sources off my Professor; I'm in between finals right now, so I don't have the time to search Google for any twin studies. However, if you're curious, you can look through just about any study that looks at identical twins that were seperated at birth. This situation allows for a lot of interesting sociology/psychology studies as ethics prevents the doctors from doing this sort of thing deliberately, they have to wait for the environment to set up the experiment for them.

 

I don't know a lot about Warhammer 40K fluff (At least specific examples, like how Marines move in vacuums, et cetera), so I don't know how well human genes translates into Primarch geneseed. All I can say is that, in terms of modern humans in the Nature vs Nurture controversy, it appears Nature wins out in the end. Not to say that Nurture does not have a great effect (40% of our personality is quite a bit), however you can liken it to a dog on a long chain--the dog can wander around, go any direction he likes, and even for quite some distance. However, he is still attached to that chain, and he can't go beyond where the chain lets him. Two dogs can go two different directions, but they're still chained to the same spot, you know?

 

I'm not saying that environment doesn't play a large part in the way a Chapter forms, however, I believe that two seperate successors that are created on planets on opposite sides of the galaxy, in completely different conditions, will still share basic traits of the Chapter that created them. One may focus on fast attack while another focuses on infiltration, one may use a lot of tanks while the other prefers Devastator squads. However, I believe they will have a foundation in the original Chapter. They may seem completely different on the surface (One may be more calm and spiritual than their father Chapter, while the other may be even more violent and bloodthirsty), but deep down they would both be honorable and believe in the Codex (If Ultramarines successors), or they may have a predisposition towards violence (like the White Scars). How they represent these foundations may be very different, but I think they will be there.

 

Now, if geneseed works differently than human genetics as we know them, then what I'm saying doesn't mean much of anything. However, I don't know a lot of information dealing with that kind of in-depth scientific knowledge of the Warhammer 40K universe. Since I don't, I'm just offering my opinion based on studies of relations between human genetics and human behavior, and extending that into the 41st century.

 

Nurture, without doubt, plays a large part in a Chapter's development. Nature, too, plays a large part. But putting the two on the balances, Nature would seem to have more weight (If barely) than Nurture. However, again, a consequence of that is one has to figure out what aspects of the Chapters of Legend is a result of geneseed, and what is a result of experience (Such as the Dark Angels' stubborn nature and Hunt for the Fallen, or stoic nature of the Salamanders with their love of fire). A successor of the Salamanders, for example, would not necessary have an obsession with fire (That's a result of the Salamanders' homeworld) nor would a Dark Angels successor necessarily be secretive (As this is a result of the Chapter's Fallen history).

 

Hopefully that explains my position a bit more effectively.

[Hemal]

i'd see the egnetic angle as a predisposition to do act in a certain way, but the nurture side would develope or curtail this type of behaviour.

 

the Fists are an interesting one - I think that the predisposition for stubbornly refusing to back down despite the odds is a genetic trait, as it implies maybe an inbalance in perhaps the hormones controlling the "flight or fight" response. However, despite this, if you TRAIN someone to run away from overwhelming odds, they generally will, which is the nurture side of things - no matter how stibborn the marines of Dorn's seed are, they probably won't be as bad as the Imperial Fists and by extension teh CFs and BTs as these Chapters were fFOUNDED on the premise ofthis type of bevhaviour. Much like the Ultramarine successors CANNOT all be bluer-than-blue, but teh Primogenitor chapters mostly are, as they are heavily influenced through their formative years by the fact they were built from the Ultramarines legion.

[StratoKhan]

Since we are unable to draw examples from the 40k universe make it might be useful to draw examples from the real world -

 

There are many similarities existing in present day cultures that can be traced back through history through to a split in the direction of migration, for example the Rus people, (this is the most popular theory) are supposedly Scandinavian in origin, yet modern day Russian culture is as far removed from Norwegian or Swedish culture as it is from French culture.

 

To give this a more 40k perspective, genetic data can influence the biology of a group of Space Marines, but unless the physical traits resulting from their genetic makeup have concrete and serious effects (Blood Angels, Space Wolves) then there is little effect genetic makeup can have on a completely different group of individuals with different social structures, behavioural patterns, etc... People seem to forget the important point - geneseed is not the only factor, the human subjects into which geneseed is implanted have no prior relation to the geneseed, they are first implanted at 12(ish). They will already have DNA which genetically determines various characteristics (kinda obvious, don't you think?), they will have personality traits taken from their own culture, and also DNA will probably be a considerable factor in determining their behaviour, personality, etc. I mean, what the hell is geneseed anyways but more of GW's brand of pseudoscience. It's not like they suck your DNA out and replace it with 'geneseed'///

 

While many people often say that we share 92% of our DNA with chimps, my girlfriend tells me we share about 50% of our DNA with bananas. Does this mean we are physically or behaviourally similar to bananas?

 

This is definitely a case of Nurture.

[refuse]

As in all of the discussion of gene-seed we have to look at the process of making a marine as a whole.

 

Some chapters may "mind wipe" the initiate, and re-program them with psycho conditioning and more. This could potentially be the largest contributor.

 

Other chapters may take initiates at a younger age, or potentially at birth, and raise them. This again could be a major contributor, as they control the initiate's body from an earlier age.

 

The psycho conditioning and its "quality" could be another factor. A parent Chapter helping a new founding may not realize that they gave only 90% of the conditioning tapes (the only ones the priests knew about, as the last/first 10% were part of the original machine spirit's BIOS). And thus the subsequent chapter diverges because of something in the conditioning that fully activates, or over activates the geneseed.

 

The processes/mythology the chapters use could also have an impact. If a chapter normally knocks out an initiate while implanting organs, but the new chapter doesn't, what effect (chemically the body would be different during the operation) would this have. And would it be the "knockout" agent or the fact the initiate was awake.

 

What if the knock out agent was really several chemicals, some to knock out, some to put certain organs to sleep, or shock them. The use of a knock out agent by the subsequent chapter may not have the same effect.

 

 

So nature (the process of creating a marine, far beyond the geneseed) and Nurture (the process of making the marine part of the chapter) could be interlinked in the history/ceremonies of the Chapter.

 

 

Then the "stock" the marines choose from. The DA choose from many worlds, but seem to maintain their basic foundations after 10,000. But other chatpers choose from one world and do the same. Can Nature be part of the selection process of the world?

 

Perhaps Chapter X chooses planet Y. These people are "near" humans. But in away not physically obvious (think Salamander heavy world way). Say the planet's atmosphere is different the the normal "earth air". What chemicals, biologicals could mutate the humans, such a way that after a chapter is founded, 200, 500, 1000 years later the geneseed is mutated.

 

I agree with the person above who says the geneseed mutates (evolves?) with the chapter. It absorbs a bit of the hosts DNA and incorporates that into itself, and then every marine who comes later.

 

What if a chapter was derived from Ghoulas, not from battle field marines. There would always be a ready stock, but if your geneseed was grown in Drugged test subjects, what effect would it have on the geneseed? What about the 2000th geneseed that had never been in a marine? What if the ghoulas were conditions, fed false images of war and violence to stimulate gland secretions? This could have been meant as a solution to the "dead" lives the ghoulas had lived. Would this mutate the Geneseed after several generations? They absorb these secretions, do they mutate to secrete them. A hyperactive chapter because they have super endocrine glands?

 

So I think each chapter is a combonation of things, and their initial inception, and their final result can be highly different. A chapter that praises a certain behavior, and uses the geneseed fo those who show that behavior, may be creating a chapter that "is" that behavior due to the geneseed absorbing that style of DNA from the recipients.

 

 

Another thought may be the "harvest time". You can remove one of the two geneseed prior to death (or at least without causing death). What happens at death? What happens to those marines who receive the "death" geneseed? What is the differences? What about geneseed harvested at the edge of expiration? Before it becomes useless. Is there an optimal time to harvest, beyond the marine's understanding.

 

What about "age" or generational use of the geneseed? What if a store of "near" inception geneseed is keept to keep the marines as close to the original geneseed used by the chapter? This may (depending on the nature/nuture decision) negate much of the evolution of the chapter.

 

It is terribly interesting.

 

About the twins. It is the same argument for the question of a person's sexuality. Are they born with a pre-disposition, or do they learn it?

[Grimdarkness]

What about the U.M and the D.A for ten thousand years there originations has remained the same as it was after the Hersey. Why.

 

The U.M recruit form amonst there realm where every male child serves in some sort of military capacity the best are gathered together and beating down to the best of the best comes to the top.

 

It's in the nature of the U.M recruits to be as loyal and Honourable as there chapter.

 

The D.A recruit from many different worlds mostly feral head hunting plain Indians type of worlds that don't say monastic order.

 

Yet the greatest (some say) chapter master of the dark angel's was once a member of a head hunting tribe on one such world.

 

Is that the nurture of the D.A training beliefs history.

[CimSaint]

The studies regarding the seperated twins are REALLY interesting (my little brothers are twins, so I've done a little reading).

 

Two baby boys, seperated at birth, unaware that they have an identical twin. Both men grew up, became fire fighters, had two boys and either had the same KIND of dog or NAMED their dogs the same, I can't remember. There were more similarities (clothing preferences, both had the same basic mustache and hair style, etc.)

 

Now, this is all superficial, but I do think it hints at something. While we are affected by Nurture more than Nature, our Nature affects in a fundamental way how we react to certain things. And it's happened more than you'd think.

 

This is how I've played it in my DIY Chapter. They are based off of El Jonson's geneseed, which makes them naturally introverted, highly intelligent and with a keen survival instinct. I'm of the opinion that he had these things before he ever hit the ground on Caliban.

 

My own DIY Chapter shares these same traits. I think the genetic personality traits would be prevalent and obvious in the Dark Angels and Ultramarines successors, as they have the purest gene-stock (physical mutations are a different ball game).

 

I think, really, it's as was mentioned; about 60/40 and Nurture's in the lead. But certain things are going to be genetically linked (paranoia, intelligence, potential for violent anger, etc.). This could have an effect on how marines fight, but no, you're not going to know how to be a great jungle fighter because papa smurf might have been. You might have inherited some traits that HELP you become a great jungle fighter, but that's all you get... a head start.

 

-Saint