The AM, Mars, the Void Dragon, and Necrons

[Grandmaster Cassius]

Ah, a lot of the point in this thread is to speculate on things, shed what you think is a viewpoint, by the info given in the Necron Codex it makes it reasonably clear that the Void Dragon, or at least something similar, is on Mars lurking in the Noctis Labyrinth, it's just GW hasn't gone into specifics just yet or expanded much upon it, therefore we try and fill the gaps with ideas :)

[Ubermensch Commander]

Personaly I don't think that the Necrons are a big thread to the galaxy, I even go so far to say they are the weakest thread to the Galaxy, or let's say second weakest, there are also the Dark Eldar. I come to that conclusion because the Necron fluff is absolutly unrealistic. When the Necrons started the war against the old ones they where reduced to one planet only and even if this planet was huge or lets say they had a planet systhem even if all the planets there were huge and lets say 50 billion creatures lived there (todays earth has about 8 billion or so, I'm not quite sure) that would mean that there would be nearly no Necrons in the galaxy (if we compare it to the other races) it is just ridiculous. They can do nothing with a puny force like that, not to mantion that this few billions are divided to 4 C'tan that fight each other. And I'm quit sure that the Necrons had only one Planet full of there kind so they have even less Necron Warriors. Also lets say there where a billion C'tan back there, even that, assuming that the Nightbringer is the second mightiest of them, there stats would be like T6 or 7, for a race like the Old Ones it would be the easiest thing in the universe to just wipe out such a puny force of metal dudes and a bunch of Wraithlord statlike beings. That they lost feels just not right.

 

But let's say the Necrons managed it to somehow managed it to beat the old ones up and be super badass and went into stasis and all that, that would mean the Necrons of today would have 50 billion Warriors and 4 C'tan, thats nothing. If the Empire hadn't something better to do they just would go like "what do you want from us" and whipe them out. Same goes for Tau, which is by the was even stated in there fluff and I think they have more Warriors that the current Necrons and partially better weapons.

 

Don't misunderstand me Necron players out there, I like your race but your fluff is so absolutly bad written...

 

To come to the real cause, I think maybe part of the AM would go for the Void Dragon, but I think if they would, they would only go for him on Mars because from what I know the dragon guys only operate on Mars and it's only a small group. Sure, it would be hell of a chaos but I think it would not last long. Also the AM knows of the C'tan at least they know that they exist, that they are xenos and that they are commanding a bunch of robot xenos skelletons. They know evrything they need to know about them. They are enemys of the empire and they are aliens, so they must be purged and thats the reason why the dragondudes have so little power at the AM and need to hide themselves, cause they would be killed if they say "we worship a giant xenos metal thing but hey, it's metal so we think it's the machine god".

 

I don't want to hurt someboady or to destroy all that cool conversation but I just think the Necrons and the C'tan are much to overrated by many of you. Just think a little logic about it, I know, 40k is not the place of logic, but just this one time.

 

Also I have to say that Ferrus, his story and his living metal hands where invented long before even someone of gw even had the first idea that they would some day invent a race called Necrons that would have living metal. What I want to say is, its just coincidence, or they had the idea of the living metal from the story of Ferrus, but originally his hands had nothing to do with the Necrons, because they had not even thinked of the race back than.

 

Same goes for the C'tan phase sword which is used by the Callidus. What I know is that way back in 2nd edition C'tan was a planet which was known to the emire and the Eldar and it was the only Planet where the materials for the sword could be found. So it's also just coincidence. Maybe they liked the name C'tan and the idea of the phase swords and made a race of the first and a weapon concept of the second while they thought about a new race.

 

*pants* now I'll better stop, not to upset someboady :nuke:

Oh and by the way, please excuse my bad english, it's not my motherstongue

 

Night Lord

 

Thank You! I never understood how the necron codex could play up the Ctan and Necrons as being so terrifying and deadly.

Big Flaw 1: the C'tan somehow allowing the Necrontyr to strike back at the Old Ones. several problems with that.

-How does a giant space cloud(the Ctan) bring knowledge of living metal to the necrontyr?(referencing the necron fluff where the "star gods" offered the Necrontry immortality, indicating that the Ctan somehow had the knowledge of turning necrontyr into robo fools.)

-Considering the beatdown the Necrontyr received at the hands of the Old Ones, they shouldnt have had the numbers to actually DO anything to the Old Ones who had several races at their disposal.

- IF the Warp is anathema to the Ctan, and the Old Ones were masters of it, how could they be a threat? the Old Ones spanned the cosmos with a hop skip and a jump, created races, and wielded pysker tech. End of Necrons in a big hurry.

 

Big Flaw 2: Ctan "winning" and "going to sleep" after they fought the Old Ones.

-A force that is reduced to EATING itself till there are only 4 left does NOT sound like victor material to me.

-They "slept" while the Eldar (their ancient foes) had a billion/million/i dont remember right now year long empire. Again, won?

 

Big Flaw 3: Should have all been eliminated.

-Eldar had aforementioned empire, weapons SPECIFICALLY MADE TO DESTROY THEM, and the Ctan are all on Dead Worlds.

-Imperium knows about them. Simply BOMB ALL THE PLANETS. I also never bought that whole "our ships go really fast WITHOUT THE WARP!" It jars with every other bit of established Warhammer 40k fluff out there.

-The Void Dragon on Mars? All advanced human tech based on Necron stuff? Please. Assuming the old human empires didnt dig it up and then cut it apart to reverse engineer it, the Emperor friggin WALKED ON MARS. If you are trying to tell me his precog didnt kick in, thats just stretching it. Even if his pyschic powers didnt kick in, that whole "Emperor guiding mankind through the ages" probably meant he would found out about something like that and DEALT WITH IT.

-Hell wouldnt someone have used that thing during the Horus Heresy? They mention during the schism both sides used forbidden, ancient weaponry. Following necron fluff that SHOULD have been the granddaddy of them all.

 

In short, hate the Necron fluff. I feel it jars with the rest of WH40K fluff. Had they just made them an ancient defeated enemy of the Old Ones reemerging insidiously, i could understand that. I do not buy the whole "we are older the chaos and more powerful than anything!" bit that came out of nowwhere. Don't dig or buy the aforementioned conspiracy theory either for the aforementioned reasons.

 

Ok. rant over. continue with the discussion.

[Arch Magos Darius]

I figure that The Void Dragon has corrupted the unknowing AM and that all machines built by them will eventually rebel against humanity, as they are built with knowledge given them by The Void Dragon/Machine God and then all the machines will converge on Mars and become the body of The Void Dragon/Machine God, imagine somthing on the size of planetary scale for it's body.

 

damn... the void dragon is Unicron!

[Arch Magos Darius]

Big Flaw 1: the C'tan somehow allowing the Necrontyr to strike back at the Old Ones. several problems with that.

-How does a giant space cloud(the Ctan) bring knowledge of living metal to the necrontyr?

The Necrontyr had previously developed "Living metal" for use in their torch ship. the C'tan being able to alter the physical realm then used the same living metal to fashion new bodies for the necrontyr.

 

 

-Considering the beatdown the Necrontyr received at the hands of the Old Ones, they shouldnt have had the numbers to actually DO anything to the Old Ones who had several races at their disposal.

 

maybe. granted the Old Ones were nigh immortal, during the first encounter with the necrontyr they simple viewed them as more of annoyance than a threat beating them back to the edges of the galaxy then generally leaving them be. over time the necrontyr could have colonized a large number of planets on the outer edges of the galaxy and sulked until the discovered the C'tan.

 

Big Flaw 2: Ctan "winning" and "going to sleep" after they fought the Old Ones.

-A force that is reduced to EATING itself till there are only 4 left does NOT sound like victor material to me.

 

When you put it that way it sure doesn't. They weren't eating each other because they were losing and struggling to survive. they were fooled by the Deciver/Laughing God/Jackal God( it is speculated that these 3 are all one in the same) in his plot to gain dominance. as soon as the Old Ones mounted an offensive all that "lets eat each other nonsense" stopped

 

-They "slept" while the Eldar (their ancient foes) had a billion/million/i dont remember right now year long empire.

They had gone into stasis AFTER the emergence of the Enslavers Plague, which they assumed would kill off the current food supply i.e. Elder,Krork, etc. They eldar came to power after this time.

 

Big Flaw 3: Should have all been eliminated.

-Eldar had aforementioned empire, weapons SPECIFICALLY MADE TO DESTROY THEM,

They only weapons the Eldar had that were effective against the necrons at this point in the game were 100 swords( Read this )made by Vaul and infused the the souls of fallen eldar(Btw whatever happened to those?)Also at this point it is important to note that whatever happened to the Old Ones has happened and they are no longer around. with all of that said the eldar were had other problems i.e. enslavers, roving bands of Krork, etc. i'm sure "destroy mortal enemy" was on their to-do list and they just never got around to it.

 

 

I also never bought that whole "our ships go really fast WITHOUT THE WARP!"

I'm hoping the information in the Apocalypse book on shadow fields will shed some light on how this is possible(get it shadow fields/light ;) ) more on this as it develops

-The Void Dragon on Mars? All advanced human tech based on Necron stuff? Please. Assuming the old human empires didnt dig it up and then cut it apart to reverse engineer it, the Emperor friggin WALKED ON MARS. If you are trying to tell me his precog didnt kick in, thats just stretching it. Even if his pyschic powers didnt kick in, that whole "Emperor guiding mankind through the ages" probably meant he would found out about something like that and DEALT WITH IT.

-Hell wouldnt someone have used that thing during the Horus Heresy? They mention during the schism both sides used forbidden, ancient weaponry. Following necron fluff that SHOULD have been the granddaddy of them all.

I actually agree with all of this. there is something on mars but it could easily be the Decivers handy work or anything else for that matter.

 

In short, hate the Necron fluff.

i dont hate it. i just wish we had more to go on. i mean some of these theories in this thread are way out there.

 

i didn't put this all here to start an argument but to help those who scan over the post gain a better understanding of the information that is currently available

 

Ok.counter-rant over. continue with the discussion.

[Captain Idaho]

i understand your frustration at having a new race shoe-horned into the fluff seemingly from nowhere. you may not even like the fluff at all. but you cannot refute that the fluff there is puts Necrons at the top of the food chain.

 

for example:

 

Big Flaw 1: the C'tan somehow allowing the Necrontyr to strike back at the Old Ones. several problems with that.

-How does a giant space cloud(the Ctan) bring knowledge of living metal to the necrontyr?(referencing the necron fluff where the "star gods" offered the Necrontry immortality, indicating that the Ctan somehow had the knowledge of turning necrontyr into robo fools.)

-Considering the beatdown the Necrontyr received at the hands of the Old Ones, they shouldnt have had the numbers to actually DO anything to the Old Ones who had several races at their disposal.

- IF the Warp is anathema to the Ctan, and the Old Ones were masters of it, how could they be a threat? the Old Ones spanned the cosmos with a hop skip and a jump, created races, and wielded pysker tech. End of Necrons in a big hurry.

 

they arent space clouds anymore, they are now contained within an avatar of living metal. Necrons already had such knoweledge, now the C'tan do and they improved on it.

 

secondly, they never received a beat down. if you read the Necron Codex, just before the plague, the Necrons were winning. fact.

 

thirdly, yes the Warp is anathema to C'tan, the Old ones being masters of it sure, but why does that mean they would own the galaxy? remember that the C'tan were masters of the material universe, which a ying/yang situation.

 

Big Flaw 2: Ctan "winning" and "going to sleep" after they fought the Old Ones.

-A force that is reduced to EATING itself till there are only 4 left does NOT sound like victor material to me.

-They "slept" while the Eldar (their ancient foes) had a billion/million/i dont remember right now year long empire. Again, won?

 

not sure what your saying here. they stayed asleep until awoken by various means/reasons. yes they feasted on eachother, but that was as sport while they were winning the first time.

 

Big Flaw 3: Should have all been eliminated.

-Eldar had aforementioned empire, weapons SPECIFICALLY MADE TO DESTROY THEM, and the Ctan are all on Dead Worlds.

 

the dead worlds were created to prevent the enslaver plague from affecting Necron worlds. the Eldar empire built up in the vacumme of the war and the weapons they built couldnt/didnt destroy the C'tan, so doesnt that tell you how powerful the C'tan must be?

 

-Imperium knows about them. Simply BOMB ALL THE PLANETS. I also never bought that whole "our ships go really fast WITHOUT THE WARP!" It jars with every other bit of established Warhammer 40k fluff out there.

 

a) the Imperium doesnt know where they are specifically for a start.

 

:) what would be the point of bombing a dead world? Necron tombs are all but impenetratable to Eldar Tech, let alone Imperial tech.

 

c) the fluff may be inconsistant to all other races space travel, but you disregarding it because you dont like it doesnt make it any less "true"

 

-The Void Dragon on Mars? All advanced human tech based on Necron stuff? Please. Assuming the old human empires didnt dig it up and then cut it apart to reverse engineer it, the Emperor friggin WALKED ON MARS. If you are trying to tell me his precog didnt kick in, thats just stretching it. Even if his pyschic powers didnt kick in, that whole "Emperor guiding mankind through the ages" probably meant he would found out about something like that and DEALT WITH IT.

 

but is he on Mars? its not been proven. is all technology based on C'tan/Necrons? show me where.

 

and as for the Emperor not predicting it, he didnt predict the Heresy very well did he? how do you know that he wasnt creating the Imperium to ultimately be able to fight the C'tan.

 

-Hell wouldnt someone have used that thing during the Horus Heresy? They mention during the schism both sides used forbidden, ancient weaponry. Following necron fluff that SHOULD have been the granddaddy of them all.

 

how the hell do you use a hidden sarcophogus with a star god inside? they didnt neccessarily know where it was, even if they did all they could do is unleash it. just as well that never happened dont you think.

 

In short, hate the Necron fluff. I feel it jars with the rest of WH40K fluff. Had they just made them an ancient defeated enemy of the Old Ones reemerging insidiously, i could understand that. I do not buy the whole "we are older the chaos and more powerful than anything!" bit that came out of nowwhere. Don't dig or buy the aforementioned conspiracy theory either for the aforementioned reasons.

 

now i dont have a problem with you saying this. its your perogative. infact, i respect what you have said here. but you cant dispute the Necrons being all powerful using fluff, as the fluff wont support you.

[Divergent Reality]

-Imperium knows about them. Simply BOMB ALL THE PLANETS. I also never bought that whole "our ships go really fast WITHOUT THE WARP!" It jars with every other bit of established Warhammer 40k fluff out there.

 

keep in mind that dead worlds can be revived.

 

over the untold millions of years, they could have been kick-started by any number of things.

 

and that whole space travel thing.

 

its like a fluorescent light vs an incandescent light.

 

they both do the same thing, just differently.

 

its just a matter of figuring out how to make a fluorescent light when all you know how to make are incandescent ones.

[Eddie Orlock]

I recall reading description even better than "our ships go really fast WITHOUT THE WARP!" From the Necron 'Fluff' I've seen, appearently they tap into non-warp, warp-like parallel dimentions beyond the ken of Humanity or the Eldar. How do you think all that 'phase tech' and teleporting worked.

 

Yup, non-warp warp space. Go figure.

[Arch Magos Darius]

I also never bought that whole "our ships go really fast WITHOUT THE WARP!"

I'm hoping the information in the Apocalypse book on shadow fields will shed some light on how this is possible(get it shadow fields/light :tu: ) more on this as it develops

 

there is a tiny little tid-bit more on this "non-warp warp space" in the Apocalypse book under the necron phalanx formation.

 

just in case you interested.

[Paradigm]

I thought that the Outsider went mad not because he ate his kin, but because the laughing god tricked it into eating it's kin. I.E. it tried to consume warp entities. I think thats pretty close to what it says in the fluff; an easily misinterpreted line. "The Laughing God tricked the Outsider into eating it's kin." Just a missing comma to denote who's kin we are talking about.

 

The Anti-Warp Idea is actually pretty cool, I hadn't heard that. I wonder if there are actually Anti-warp entities, or if the C'tan are just that?

[Captain Idaho]

well Pariahs are anti warp. not sure about C'tan, but i think in a new Codex they should get the soul-less rules that Pariahs get, just to make them that little bit more scary.

 

interesting point about the Outsider eating "its kin", as the wording is indeed ambigous. i always assumed that it was a reference to the C'tan's kin, not warp entities. could it be possible though? after all the C'tan eat life force not souls.

[Paradigm]

I mean anti warp in a matter vs anti matter sense.

 

I think if you were a life-force devourer and had no soul, and tried to eat a soul with no life force it would mess you up a bit? I wonder if in consuming warp entities they were able to establish themselves and possess the C'tan? Speculation for sure but the outsider has the most room for it.

 

I think if the outsider went crazy from eating other C'tan, then good old VD the Deceiver and Nightbringer should have followed him.

[Captain Idaho]

a daemon could only possess something with a soul normally, but then we have Defilers etc. but that would mean to possess a C'tan avatar (i.e. the body) a ritual would have to be performed, and i doubt the C'tan would just let that happen!

 

even if it did, the C'tan would just move to another body.

 

now could a C'tan eat a soul? doubtful, but who knows, its 40K.

[Behdini]

Ever since I heard about the C'tan, I've snorted milk out of my nose. Why? Trance Gemini, Avatar of the Vedran Sun. From Andromeda. Pic below:

http://www.universeguide.com/Pictures/TranceGeminiFull.jpg

Yes, that's a tail.

*snorts milk out her nose again*

[Divergent Reality]

Ever since I heard about the C'tan, I've snorted milk out of my nose. Why? Trance Gemini, Avatar of the Vedran Sun. From Andromeda. Pic below:

http://www.universeguide.com/Pictures/TranceGeminiFull.jpg

Yes, that's a tail.

*snorts milk out her nose again*

 

care to expand on this.

 

right now it makes absolutely no sense for those who have not watched andromeda..

[Lord Drungar]

oh, and for fans of the latest Dr. Who (sorry you guys in the US...): dont the necrons remind you of the cybermen? perhaps the AM plan to 'upgrade' humanity at some point...

 

well, persoanlly they remind me more of the daleks.....

 

 

EXTERMINATE!