Collaborative Chapter Creation Project II

[Nine_Breaker]

Ferrata's idea that the chapter 'bears' the weight of war so that the civilians of the Imperium do not have to strikes me as a very interesting one. It lends well to the idea of a very noble, self-sacrificing chapter, an idea I'd like very much to instil. I'm not so sure about them being 'depressive', because that strikes me as a tad tiresome and perhaps overdone. They can be dutiful and acknowledge that it is their weight to bear without being all 'woe is me!'

 

I got to agree with this one. I like the image of a Chapter that fights only for the good of the Imperium and its loyal servants, rather than fighting for themselves. This would probably make them more of a defensive chapter than offensive. The marines themselves I can see being aware that they are basically martyrs, but embrace the knowledge. They know that they live only to die in the name of the Emperor and Mankind. Phrases like: "Only in death does duty end" and "No man died in His service that died in vain" come to mind. Very dutiful, and perhaps humble as well.

[Ferrata]

This would probably make them more of a defensive chapter than offensive.

Which would fit with the Whirlwind use :P

[Hrvat]

Also since were are considering Slavic names it might be ok to name the ceremonial axe "Toh" which is an ancient slavi name for a single headed axe used with two hands on foot by soldiers of higher status. So a "Toh" could be a replacement for Crpzicus or something along those lines.

[Darrell]

Like Archangelus said, war's what they do and that's what they do.

 

So, what we're thinking is a Chapter that's essentially working along the ideas of:

 

"I'm good at what I do, but what I do isn't very nice." -- Logan

 

"Killing is our business, and business is good."--Various books, movies, et cetera

 

I think it would be good if we could keep an underlying sense of duty, honor, noble sacrifice, et cetera to the whole thing. Instead of the thought "We'll wipe out the whole damned world if that's what it takes!", we could go with "Every Brother in the Chapter will lay down his life if that's what it takes!". Instead of being willing to sacrifice the lives of others, they sacrifice the lives of themselves. Perhaps instead of the mentality "For every Marine that falls in battle, one hundred enemies shall die", it could be "For every Marine that falls in battle, one hundred Imperial citizens will live".

 

But that's the noble part of me talking, and we know how much that likes to come out.

[Keyoz Devastrius]

Even if War Bearers are Iron Hands successors they would not be trained by them as Iron Hands are very isolationistic and don’t trust other marine chapters. So they would be most probably trained by a codex chapter and therefore would become codex themselves.

 

The problem is that it was supposed in Iron Hands IA that their love for the bionics can be caused by a genetic flaw, so War Bearers have to handle it in the same or different way(e.g. by constant chemo and gene therapy).

 

I have nothing against Slavic names ( I have one myself ) but changing the name to Slavic must be motivated by something e.g. the first chapter master had Slavic name and sacrificed himself to protect a planet – now they all change their name to Slavic to honor him.

Edited July 12, 2006 by Keyoz Devastrius

[Barret]

"For every Marine that falls in battle, one hundred Imperial citizens will live".

 

I like this. It's what I was trying to say, I think. These are not hardened killing machines who actively enjoy and get pleasure from what they do, but do it because it's what has to be done and they're the ones who have to do it, and they know exactly why they're doing it.

 

For some reason, I'm stuck on the image/theme of soldiers in WWII, fighting evil not because they like to fight and die, but because evil must be fought everywhere it shows itself, and by fighting and dying they protect those who need protection from evil.

 

 

--edit--

 

As anyone who remembers the gene-seed discussion Aurelius Rex started pre-crash might know, I don't believe that gene-seed defines proclivities like that. Nuture over nature, if you will. If the IH used bionics to cover up actual fleshy deficiency, then I'd buy their successors doing it, too. But I don't believe that it's a genetic thing, just a cultural one. As I said in my earlier post, I can see the War Bearers, should they be IH successors, having some milder version of the affinity for bionics, but not to the same compulsive level as the IH. They'd do it because it's what needs doing, not being they attach great religious significance to it.

Edited July 12, 2006 by Barret

[Ferrata]

As anyone who remembers the gene-seed discussion Aurelius Rex started pre-crash might know, I don't believe that gene-seed defines proclivities like that. Nuture over nature, if you will. If the IH used bionics to cover up actual fleshy deficiency, then I'd buy their successors doing it, too. But I don't believe that it's a genetic thing, just a cultural one. As I said in my earlier post, I can see the War Bearers, should they be IH successors, having some milder version of the affinity for bionics, but not to the same compulsive level as the IH. They'd do it because it's what needs doing, not being they attach great religious significance to it.

Yes, I remember. We also have repeated it since the crash: Gene-Seed Discussions. There is no proof that the IH love of bionics is genetically caused, it is more likely due to Medusa and Ferrus.

[Barret]

Yes, I remember. We also have repeated it since the crash: Gene-Seed Discussions. There is no proof that the IH love of bionics is genetically caused, it is more likely due to Medusa and Ferrus.

 

 

Whoa, guess I missed those. Thanks.

[Keyoz Devastrius]

Ferrata:

 

There is no proof that the IH love of bionics is genetically caused, it is morelikely due to Medusa and Ferrus.

 

IA:IH

[Archangelus]

Maybe it is genetic, maybe it is not. Anyway an affinity to bionics would go well with the War Bearers, if we go with the pragmatic attitude ("tool" etc). They could rationalise their tendency to "improve" themselves not based on religious fervour but simply because it works better.

 

"Actually, this new bionic eye works better than the old organic one. See that fly on the rock? Watch now how I'll hit it with my lascannon!"

 

Iron Hands despise weakness for its own sake. Maybe the WB dislike it because it makes it harder to get the job done, whether this involves exterminating the enemy or saving the populace.

 

On the last point, I believe that WB should be less valorous than it was suggested in some of the most recent posts. I like them to be more warlike. After all they are called the WAR bearers not the BURDEN/RESPONSIBILITY Bearers. Just my personal opinion.

Edited July 12, 2006 by Archangelus

[Ferrata]

When we say that the bionics thing is not caused by genetic flaw we are explaining the bit of fluff that is better to be left unexplained ,and our only justification for doing it is that we believe that it's a cultural thing, and that there

[iron father]

If that was their flaw - decreased muscle capability - that's a pretty big hindrance to their job. I'd think at that point it would be more economical to disband them than to keep shipping them bionics all the time. It's pretty hard to be a soldier, especially an elite supersoldier, with a physical disability like that.

 

I don't believe the reference to 'Ferrus' (a common Latin word, especially for 40k) in the IA book links them to the Iron Hands. I like them better as Ultramarines stock - plain jane. So common, it's actually refreshing.

 

Along with that, I support the idea that they're no-nonsense soldier types instead of chivalrous knights or protectors of the Imperial populace. They're not noble, but they're not bloodthirsty, either. No more bloodthirsty than any other Imperial soldier, anyway. They're professionals who get the job done; they love the codex, and are prepared for all the varied situations of war. Which is probably why they have a Hyperios.

 

That's my vote, anyway.

[Ferrata]

If that was their flaw - decreased muscle capability - that's a pretty big hindrance to their job. I'd think at that point it would be more economical to disband them than to keep shipping them bionics all the time. It's pretty hard to be a soldier, especially an elite supersoldier, with a physical disability like that.

Just playing Devil's Advocate ^_^

 

I would also suggest going Ultramarine because Ultramarine is cool. Also, 66% of all Chapters are Ultramarine so the War Bearers should be one of them.

[Barret]

I would also suggest going Ultramarine because Ultramarine is cool. Also, 66% of all Chapters are Ultramarine so the War Bearers should be one of them.

 

I dunno, I have to admit I'm getting to like the idea of the War Bearers being Iron Hands Successors, even if they don't share their proclivity for bionics and technology in general beyond respecting the utility of having the right tools (after all, what soldier doesn't respect the power of tank?). That's probably just 'cause my main army at the moment is IH, though. ^_^ If the consensus is Ultramarines, though, that's fine with me, too.

[Big Woop]

The two crossed axes makes me think of two warriors fighting together, symbolizing brotherhood and so on.

Maybe all brothers would pe part of a two man team, always fighting alongside each other. Just a random idea that popped into my head :blush: .

 

I like the idea of them being somewhere in the middle when it comes to morals, but they should still be able to take a stance and stand for their actions with fanatic devotion. The commander and his judgement would be very important, after all its not the individual marine who decides wether to destroy a city.

What I mean is if they have at least some moral standards, that could mean their commanders play a more vital role to them than to other more ruthless chapters.

[Archangelus]

The two crossed axes makes me think of two warriors fighting together, symbolizing brotherhood and so on.

Maybe all brothers would pe part of a two man team, always fighting alongside each other. Just a random idea that popped into my head :D .

 

I like the idea of them being somewhere in the middle when it comes to morals, but they should still be able to take a stance and stand for their actions with fanatic devotion. The commander and his judgement would be very important, after all its not the individual marine who decides wether to destroy a city.

What I mean is if they have at least some moral standards, that could mean their commanders play a more vital role to them than to other more ruthless chapters.

 

Regarding the pairs, maybe the squads must always have an even number of members.

 

I do not understand your last point, however, about the commanders of more ruthless chapters. Could you explain that, please? ;)

[Keyoz Devastrius]

Ferrata:

 

But then again, maybe this flaw is not actually a flaw which makes them attracted to bionics but a flaw which forces them to use bionics. Maybe they have a weakness in their muscles which can degrade as they get older, which means they have to replace their limbs with bionics. Over time this has become entwined in their "Flesh is Weak" doctrine and beliefs.

I was thinking about it this way. Maybe not weakness in their muscles rather something like a cancer- they are cutting their limbs to stop it from spreading on other organs, but they are only slowing it down as after some time it reappears in other limb. The bionics would be necessary to keep the marines efficient. Then Cult Mechanicus disarrays(?) everything- true reason of cutting their limbs is being forgotten but it is still practiced and its becoming a part of their religion.

 

Ferrata:

 

I would also suggest going Ultramarine because Ultramarine is cool. Also, 66% of all Chapters are Ultramarine so the War Bearers should be one of them.

 

I second that

[Big Woop]

Their commander has a choice, and his actions are less predictable than for example Marines Malevolent. Even if the commander orders the chapter to slaughter civilians via a orbital bombardment they have to obey, so they must be able to trust his judgement. I realize it may sound a little vague though.

[Archangelus]

Space Marines do not question their commanders. Period. This is the path of heresy, my friend. If the commander orders them to slaughter babies, they would do so. On the other hand, a SM commander would never do something pointless. There must have been a very good reason for burning down that nursery.

 

The Marines Malevolent, in that famous incident with their Whirlwinds, killed civilians but also decimated the orks, facilitating a quick victory.

Edited July 13, 2006 by Archangelus

[Sigismund Himself]

Even though I don't like Ultrammarines :blink: , I also 2nd the idea of making them of Ultramarine geneseed

cheers

[Hrvat]

While we are on the geneseed discussion I would like to pourpose that we use Salamander geneseed. It is pure, with no apparent flaws, all organs are functioning and there aren't that many Salamander sucsessors around. The geneseed of the Salamanders does not mean they have to be conected with fire or melta stuff. If not that I am for Ultramarine GS.

[Zhivago]

I 2nd the ultramarine notion. Most DIYs we see are from some more exotic stock. And as noted 66% of chapters originate from UMs. When it comes to the fluff piece about that tank, I think that the name is just what it is. Even if names are hugely important in marine circles, it feels odd to make conclusions on one name.

 

The notation about slavic names given to marines when they join chapter was good, imho.

 

Homeworld and fleet-based have been both suggested, but if the chapter ends as 'bearing the wars of the imperium, for the benefit of mankind' it would be beneficial to have them sail around, never at rest, doing His work.

 

I have to admit that the idea of ruthless 'we get the job done, even if means we utilize ultimate means' guys is more appealing to me. Castellans were goody-good, protecting the pilgrims. So why not create something tad mote grim now ?

 

I think we should try to reach a understanding what we want them to be (ie, humane or ruthless) and then start to develop dogma, beliefs, possible homeworld and such.

 

where ruthless = "Along with that, I support the idea that they're no-nonsense soldier types instead of chivalrous knights or protectors of the Imperial populace. They're not noble, but they're not bloodthirsty, either. No more bloodthirsty than any other Imperial soldier, anyway. They're professionals who get the job done; they love the codex, and are prepared for all the varied situations of war. Which is probably why they have a Hyperios."

 

The gene-seed should be decided too ?

[Archangelus]

The word "Bearer" is usually associated with an honour, like Standard Bearer, Censer Bearer etc. Bearing a standard does not mean just carrying it, it means to bring it forward towards the enemy, make yourself a focal point for the rest of the troops as to were the battle is to be joined.

 

To be picked to carry such an item is usually considered an honour, therefore it seems to me that the War Bearers would take pride in what they do and even enjoy themselves when they are in a war and "get the job done". Usually winning wars involves a certain degree of ruthlessness. Ruthless does not necessarily mean to get civilians in a crossfire all the time. Neither does it mean looking down on the average human citizen or even despise them (like the Marines Malevolent do).

 

Pragmatic and ruthless are not the same thing anyway! You can be pragmatic and act ruthlessly, but then subsequently honour the fallen innocents and grieve for them (even if only by holding 1 minute silence).

 

On the point of the Hyperios, I would rather see the War Bearers as just being very well equipped than being defensive.

 

Am I repeating myself? If yes, sorry about that, but I got excited with this project :P

[Ferrata]

Note on Gene-Seed: Go Ultramarine, it is simple, commonly used and you don't have to think about its effect on the chapter. This gives you total freedom of where to take the chapter, you have a blank canvas.

 

Keyoz Devastrius: Yes, my IH thing maybe was a bit too much, but you got the idea. I personally like the idea that the Iron Hands are unpure and are trying to cover it up (maybe because I don't really like the Iron Hands :P)

[Keyoz Devastrius]

I think that on the contrary of other Space Marines chapters War Bearers would feel more bound up with the Imperium and its people.

 

Some conclusions of what we already have :

 

-Ultramarines successors

 

-codex and versatile

 

-very well equipped –using right tools to deal with a problem (Some AM links, or maybe they get special attention from High Lords and therefore are equipped better then other chapters?)

 

-taking pride in what they do

 

-relentless –battle leads to total destruction of the enemy

 

-ruthless -getting the job done whatever means necessary

 

-pragmatic – civilians are a important part of imperium, killing them without purpose would mean to weaken the imperium

 

-no place for heroism - if you die your brothers have less chance to get the job done

 

-Slavic names

 

I've missed something? Or maybe something’s not right?

Edited July 13, 2006 by Keyoz Devastrius