Collaborative Chapter Creation Project II

[Brother-Librarian Akritedes]

At the risk of going too far or perhaps insulting people, I would say that using any fascist organization in human history as a template for the Imperium is a Good Idea. It's just how the Imperium is.

 

That said, I like the idea of a Sector/Sub-Sector Fortress World better than a more tribal world or one focused on serfs. It plays heavily to the Soldiers Not Saints theme, because mass military training is designed to beat out heroism and individuality to force a recruit to conform to the military's wisdom and be a cog in the machine. Tribes and their kind are more conducive to heroism and hero worship because they have, as a rule, no organized military, merely skilled warriors. Look at the Native American tribes, for example. It also, in some part, deals with the issue of jealously. If training begins in the Cadian fashion (around three, really as soon as they begin to develop motor skills), by the time they're nearing the age of recruitment they will have had much of the individuality beaten out and teamwork firmly instilled in them. Best case, at that point it simply becomes a specialization. "Woah, sweet! You made the cut for the Astartes class! And look, I qualified for the drop troopers!" Worst case, of course, doesn't change. There's always someone who isn't satisfied with what they're given, but that's almost a good thing as long as they're caught in time. Weeds out the bad apples early.

[Keyoz Devastrius]

Grimdarkness:

The first need of a man is shelter he can eat like a king but if he freeze to death or dies of dehydration he still dies even with a full belly.

 

Yeah. Sorry-it should be: "One of first needs of a man

[Grimdarkness]

Grimdarkness:

The first need of a man is shelter he can eat like a king but if he freeze to death or dies of dehydration he still dies even with a full belly.

 

Yeah. Sorry-it should be: "One of first needs of a man

[Zhivago]

I have suggestion to the homeworld thing which solves the grounding guard thing.

 

The system has several habitable plantes (and several gas giants as meteor buffer and to produce hydrogen for fuel)

 

One of the worlds is 'war-game world', one of em is the garrison world, and third is less hospitable WB home world. Now, marines recruit from the garrison world via picking recruits in war-games.

 

This way marines get they young well trained aspirants and cream of entire martial society. AND as they don't govern over the garrison world, they have no authority over its tithes (and thus regiments)

[AWOL]

Is it really so impossible for the War Bearer's homeworld to be an exception to the no tithes thing? Given the chapter's "everybody does their part" attitude regarding warfare, couldn't they have just agreed voluntarily to continue sending tithes? It might have ruffled a few feathers initially, but if the chapter is old enough and their record of faithful completion of the vow has stood for long enough, I would think that eventually the High Lords would get over it and move on to other matters that are more worthy of their attention.

 

I really like the idea of having the marines being closely tied with the guard. Their color scheme even sort of hearkens back to this, as their olive green could just be a natural extension of their homeworld IG regiment's olive fatigues. It's a shame there's no rules for including regular marine forces with Imperial Guard allies or vice versa outside the two inquisition codexes, as I think this would fit fairly well with what has been devloped for them so far.

 

I could see this relationship playing out in actual combat scenarios with the WBs possibly deferring to IG commanders on matters of overall strategy (up to a point, obviously,) even at the expense of, say, ignoring the orders of members of the Inquisition. It's been done before, but having the WBs at odds with the Echlisiarchy, possibly due to some incident in a previous campaign where an Inquisition objective was ignored in favor of assisting/saving IG troops from an enemy assault, provides for some interesting opportunities. I see the situation being along the lines of having some members of the Echlesiarchy privately upset with the WBs but not really being able to do anything about it due to the chapter's unswerving military record and loyalty. It's a bit strong (since, in truth, the Echlesiarchy can do whatever it wants, really) but a decent groundwork for ideas, if nothing else.

 

Anyway, I'll be following this very closely. The ideas of the chapter are falling very closely to what I want in a space marine chapter, so I may even create some inaugural warbearers once the project is a little further along.

[Zhivago]

Is it really so impossible for the War Bearer's homeworld to be an exception to the no tithes thing? Given the chapter's "everybody does their part" attitude regarding warfare, couldn't they have just agreed voluntarily to continue sending tithes? It might have ruffled a few feathers initially, but if the chapter is old enough and their record of faithful completion of the vow has stood for long enough, I would think that eventually the High Lords would get over it and move on to other matters that are more worthy of their attention.

 

They could, and would probably. That's not the problem. The question is WOULD high lords of terra trust that chapter would allow tithing from their precious homeworld. Ultramarines allow it.

 

It goes like this. (bit parody, ok)

 

WB commander: We want that world

High Lords: But they produce regiments, and we need them.

WB commander: We promise to keep sending them to you ?

High Lords: Honest ?

WB commander: Lets make a pinky promise !

High Lords: -.-

 

It is not that high lords would lose the regiments, but they would POTENTIALLY loose them. And thus deny choosing garrison world as home world. I have suggested something that works around this and still keeps ties to the guard. See my earlier post.

 

But in the end, this thing is in the guiding hands of Molotov.

[AWOL]

I suppose so. One other possibility is that the world wasn't quite as prolific at spitting out troops before, and so maybe wasn't quite as appealing to the High Lords when the chapter was first founded? Like maybe the military production has been scaled up over the centuries since the chapter was founded there, going from a militaristic but perhaps still not that highly developed technological world to the fortress world it is today?

 

Just throwing out brainstorms, obviously.

[iron father]

But in the end, this thing is in the guiding hands of Molotov.

 

I disagree. This is everyone's project.

 

As for the tithes - many worlds are exempt due to some extenuating circumstance. I think AWOL's explanation makes perfect sense.

[Zhivago]

I disagree. This is everyone's project.

True, but he decides when something is 'settled'.

 

I suppose so. One other possibility is that the world wasn't quite as prolific at spitting out troops before, and so maybe wasn't quite as appealing to the High Lords when the chapter was first founded? Like maybe the military production has been scaled up over the centuries since the chapter was founded there, going from a militaristic but perhaps still not that highly developed technological world to the fortress world it is today?

 

Entirely possbile. Prehaps the world was not that important when the chapter was founded. But it leads to a following question. As the systems/worlds importance increased, were the chaptermaster of WB responsible for increasing the amount of regiments ? (As he is acting planetary governor)

 

I assume yes... this shows that WB have more trust to their fellow men, than other chapters do. Prehaps he later chapter master allowed regiments to be sent to serve the imperial generals around the galaxy. (Ideally producing actually experienced units.)

 

For some reason I have bad feeling of having chapter sitting on huge amount of regiments. But as noted UM do it too, so.

 

I think idea noted by AWOL is satisfactory explanation.

 

I gather here something we have 'agreed'. Someone note of he/she disagrees.

Also, some ideas.

 

-WB homeworld is current garrison world. (It was not when the chapter was founded)

 

-As the planets sits on space route that later came vital, the chapter decided to increase amount of PDFs

 

-And put up the 'war games system'

 

(before that they recruited from games held in academy prehaps ?)

 

-New war games system allow them to observe potential recruits in combat. A chaplain walking in shadows, judging whether youth is suitable in body, mind and heart to join the chapter.

 

-So two worlds, one is for 'games' other is the homeworld.

 

-Fortress monastery is in space ? Orbital station or space fortress ?

[Commissar Molotov]

I disagree. This is everyone's project.

 

 

True, but he decides when something is 'settled'.

 

Actually, Iron Father is right. I started this project to try to build some sense of community in the Liber, not to run roughshod over everyone else. If I say anything, it's because I'm trying to guide the group to a consensus. I'm always willing to listen to alternative points of view.

[Grimdarkness]

As for tithes we seem to be cutting half the population out of the picture perhaps home world X sends it's tithe regiment's as female guard or are they excluded from service?

[Ferrata]

I think your all getting hung up a little details were you should be looking at a slightly bigger picture. You need to decide more about the home world in general before you decide if it pays tithe's or not.

[AWOL]

Agreed.

 

I know the point has been made that the cold conditions don't necessarily lead to stronger unity, but I like the idea anyways. Not cold to the point of Siberia, as we don't want the Warbearers to be from the Vostroyan homeworld or something, but enough to make things a challenge for up and comers.

 

It would be refreshing to have the hives of this world not necessarily be the acid rain dumping slums that you get from most 40k fiction, but I'm not sure if that goal is reconcilable with the amount of military production that we're hoping to get out of the world.

 

And the idea of a wargame moon, perhaps where the marines keep their fortress monastary, sounds very cool to me.

[Keyoz Devastrius]

I must agree with everything that AWOL said in his last post :

 

-I think that cold but not ”freezing-to-death” climate is good idea as fortress world would have much industry and it would cause greenhouse effect.

 

-The cities could be something between modern cities and hives, with armored walls and guns all over the place.

 

-WB having their fortress monastery on the same planet/moon that is the training ground of the academies is also not a bad idea.

 

I was thinking how WB would see the battle between Alpha Legion and Ultramarines.

 

As Guilliman is a man to them, they could see it as his mistake - he had broken his own rules of operations and failed in destroying Alfa Legion. This could be the reason of them being so faithful to the codex and destroying their enemies completely – they are fixing Guilliman‘s mistake.

 

What do You think?

Edited July 20, 2006 by Keyoz Devastrius

[Ferrata]

I think it would be more characterful to have them have their own flaw and not depend on someone elses. Have *them* attack a planet, not finish the job properly (maybe called away to another battle) and have them get hit in the rear with a massive assault. Maybe they fought Nurgle on a Forgeworld, thought they had finished the job so left, only to have Nurgle to re-appear (not destroyed properly) and destroyed the forge world. Their Mistake, Their Flaw, Their Reason to destroy everything.

[Big Woop]

"with armored walls and guns all over the place."

I think this is a great idea, a planet that is obsessed with weapons and soldiery to the point when it dominates the cities aestethically.

 

Of course that doesn't have to mean that the planet itself experiences war on its own soil often, it might just be engraved into their culture. Extreme living conditions is not absolutely necessary to make an interesting homeworld.

 

A fortress world could do without a heavy industry, they might get their equipment from nearby worlds. As I'm not a big fan of extreme living conditions, I'd rather make the planet less polluted, but that's just me.

[Commissar Molotov]

I agree with Ak's estimation of things, but we tend to think similarly. This homeworld is attempting to pump out large numbers of homogenised Guardsmen, for lack of a better term. It's not as though we're recruiting from Schola Progenum or the like. GrimDarkness, perhaps you should examine the Israeli 'Kibbutz' system? It might provide you with some inspiration.

 

The thing is that you're over-exaggerating the tithe thing a little. The Imperial Fists recruit from Terra, they recruit from Necromunda. They don't exercise governmental control over either. Necromunda is, in fact, famous for its' Imperial Guardsmen (the 'Spiders' have appeared in Regiments of Legend articles previously).

 

I think we're just going to have to settle for AWOL's ideas. That the War Bearers are trying to act in the best interests of the Imperium, so they actively send out tithes. Perhaps they even send out troops far in excess of the tithes? The High Lords would get over it if it's working in the favour of the Imperium.

 

(AWOL, I'm glad you're enjoying the project, and thank you for your input).

 

Yes, perhaps the Word Bearers were initially operating on a 'Pinky Promise', but if the War Bearers worked at it for long enough, they'd build bonds of trust that would far outweigh any such concerns. Perhaps the Inquisition were watching over them initially anyway. In fact, if the War Bearers helped to militarise/improve the world, and started sending out troops voluntarily, I'm sure the High Lords wouldn't mind one iota.

 

Whilst the Chapter Master is the 'acting' governor, I would think that in most cases that's in name only. There would be officials to deal with the minutae, the paperwork, etc. The Commander would probably say 'do this', and the human officials would work out how to do so.

 

-WB homeworld is current garrison world. (It was not when the chapter was founded)

-As the planets sits on space route that later came vital, the chapter decided to increase amount of PDFs

-And put up the 'war games system'

(before that they recruited from games held in academy prehaps ?)

-New war games system allow them to observe potential recruits in combat. A chaplain walking in shadows, judging whether youth is suitable in body, mind and heart to join the chapter.

-So two worlds, one is for 'games' other is the homeworld.

-Fortress monastery is in space ? Orbital station or space fortress ?

This is pretty much decent thus far, I would think.

 

As for tithes we seem to be cutting half the population out of the picture perhaps home world X sends it's tithe regiment's as female guard or are they excluded from service?

 

Well, you're right in a sense. It depends on how we want to do it. It's entirely possible women could be fighting on the front line, as they can hold a gun. It's entirely possible women could essentially be breeding machines to make the next generation of soldiers. The Imperium isn't always nice and pretty; it doesn't always conform to our ideas of equality. It's something interesting to discuss.

 

Ideally I'd like the Fortress-Monastery to be a space-born thing, like a Ramilles Starfort, just becase we have a lot of moon-based... bases. It also helps distinguish the wargames moon a little. I also think we should ignore the Alpha Legion thing - though it was a good idea, Keyoz. However, I'm not sure the War Bearers need a 'flaw' in that sense. Now, I'm not saying we should make super-perfect marines, because we shouldn't. We want the War Bearers to be characterful. But not every chapter needs to be compensating for some huge sin (real or imagined), or deeply scarred from incident X where they lost Y Companies to the Big Gribbly of Gribbletown. What better reason to destroy everything other than the fact that it endangers the Imperium? The Imperium is the Emperor incarnate, and to protect the Imperium is to protect the Emperor, after all.

 

We're getting close to the stage where we can start drafting an IA article. Where in the galaxy do we want the War Bearers to be? I must admit that my personal preference would be away from the Eastern Fringes, just because of the excessive focus on the Tau/Tyranids/Medusa in recent times.

 

Is there anything huge anyone wants to discuss or contribute next?

[Ferrata]

However, I'm not sure the War Bearers need a 'flaw' in that sense. Now, I'm not saying we should make super-perfect marines, because we shouldn't. We want the War Bearers to be characterful. But not every chapter needs to be compensating for some huge sin (real or imagined), or deeply scarred from incident X where they lost Y Companies to the Big Gribbly of Gribbletown. What better reason to destroy everything other than the fact that it endangers the Imperium? The Imperium is the Emperor incarnate, and to protect the Imperium is to protect the Emperor, after all.

But Marines very rarely stay in one battle until the enemy is completly destroyed, there are too few marines for this. Marines get in, change the tide of the battle and do any jobs that are either too difficult for the Guard or it *needs* to be done. Marines leaving tidying up work the Guard, so you need a reason why the Bearers do this, why do they not stop until it is all dead. Maybe it doesn't even need to be that bad, maybe they screwed up once and their position was comprimised, having to return to the battlefield. In their absence, citizens were killed. They learnt their lesson, and now stay until the job is done.

 

As for the homeworld, I would go for one world we're its only use to the Imperium is the population (think Catachan without the jungle). It could become a farming world, but it decided to become a massive military producer. The training happens on the planet in large fortresses, though these forts have never been used to defend the planet. Also, I think a Captain/Sergeant would fit the role more than a Chaplain for the Warbearers, thinking more military than spiritual

[Keyoz Devastrius]

The Alfa Legion thing don

[Zhivago]

Also, I think a Captain/Sergeant would fit the role more than a Chaplain for the Warbearers, thinking more military than spiritual

I think that any marne can judge wether man can fight. But I assumed it would take a chaplain to see wether one has a heart of a warrior.

 

We're getting close to the stage where we can start drafting an IA article. Where in the galaxy do we want the War Bearers to be? I must admit that my personal preference would be away from the Eastern Fringes, just because of the excessive focus on the Tau/Tyranids/Medusa in recent times.

 

http://www.darkmillennia.net/QuadrantMap_pages/GMap.htm

 

How about segmentum pacificus ? Do we need to be more specific ?

 

Prehaps the world came important after macharian crusade, as a ONE route to macharian worlds ?

(Of many routes) I know tying fluff to GW fluff ight be catastrophical, but that being one of many should guaranteed that unless GW wipes macharius, we'd be safe.

 

Or then we can just say that the forge world was founded in 'somewhere quite far away' and now the system WB inhabit is inportant supply route for imperium ? Full of merchant ships, plaqued by human ork and eldar pirates?

[AWOL]

Didn't someobdy mention towards the beginning that there were Warbearers in one of the Armageddon wars? If so, having the homeworld stationed in that vicinity might not be a terrible idea, especially since IIRC Armageddon is important due to it's proximity to space lanes. Plus, being part of the Segmentum Solar means there's plenty of populated systems nearby and we're sort of in the center of a hub that radiates out to the rest of the galaxy.

[Commissar Molotov]

I believe the Angels of Fire, Angels Porphyr and Storm Giants were the chapters we mentioned as having participated in the third Armageddon War. I don't believe that anyone mentioned the War Bearers as having participated in the Wars for Armageddon.

[Ferrata]

Warbearers were not present during the Third War (Codex: Armeggedon)

[Keyoz Devastrius]

I

[Ferrata]

To look after the Spiritual and Moral well-being of the Marines. Chaplains are not your typical preachers, more they look after the spiritually wounded. This would extend to the morally wounded as well.