Collaborative Chapter Creation Project II

[Archangelus]

Good summary there, except for the "fleet based" bit. I do not think we agreed about this. Or did I miss something? :P

[Ferrata]

offensive and fleet based

I would remove this from the list for further disucssion. Offensive does not fit in with Using the right tools for the job because this could sometimes be being defensive. Also, they use Whirlwinds which does not really fit with being Offensive. I always found fleet based chapters a little cheap, I think developing a home world would be fun, a challenge and add to the chapter. It also removes the need for a reason to have them called Slavic names, the home world could be Slavic.

[Keyoz Devastrius]

Ok. Maybe I've rushed this one...:P

 

Edited the summary :D

Edited July 13, 2006 by Keyoz Devastrius

[Heru]

You could go the whole route of the modern day soldier. APCs supported by airsupport etc etc.

 

They could also recruit differently than other Chapters. Perhaps using some form of boot camp, any who don't cut the grade for becoming Space Marines could be induced into some form of supporting Guard unit that works alongside them in their operations.

 

Perhaps they even lend Squads to Imperial Guard Regiments in a sort of Grenadier/Storm Trooper capacity.

 

 

While other Chapters are "Noble" Knights leading a Crusade to the stars, the War Bearers could be Soldiers plain and simple, it's their job to fight not their religious duty.

[Cpt_Tiberius]

Something tells me it wasn't their intention to suggest IH geneseed. However if you went that way, you could have them obsessed with perfection as well, but physical perfection, not bionics. I've always felt that Ferrus would be disappointed to see what his chapter has turned into. The War Bearers could have an antagonistic relationship with their founding chapter, considering them as fallen from the path that Ferrus set them on.

 

I like the idea of them being "breachers/sappers" It's really what the marines do best. Tip of the spear and all of that. They could be obsessed with military perfection as well. The best training, the best tactics, the best equipment. This could tie into their possesion of such a rare vehicle as the hyperios.

[Grimdarkness]

very well equipped

[Archangelus]

Or if we add a bit of religion to this, how about them putting more emphasis on the Warrior aspect of the Emperor who:

 

1. United via war the warlords on Terra

2. Launched a crusade to reclaim the Galaxy

3. United quite a fair bit of the galaxy via war

4. It was through a war (Horus Heresy) that the Emperor ascended to god-hood, by providing the guiding beacon of light through the warp (Astronomicon).

 

The Emperor is not just a god, he is the God of War! And war has many aspects and is after all a necessity for the existence of Mankind.

 

What do you think?

Edited July 13, 2006 by Archangelus

[Nine_Breaker]

Also, they use Whirlwinds which does not really fit with being Offensive.

 

I really fail to see why whirlwinds make a chapter seem defensive. Is it so defensive if the War Bearers advance behind a rolling barrage? Or if they like to be able to call in artillery strikes on a heavy weapons' bunker? Or maybe if they just prefer to pound the stuffing out of the enemy's defenses before moving in and mopping up? Maybe it's just me, but artillery, and especially missile based systems, strike me as very aggressive weapons of war.

 

If this chapter is going to be all pragmatic and soldier-like instead of the regular warrior monks, then maybe they'll forget about the whole honor thing about face-to-face combat and remember that little saying about "If the tank is the king of the battlefield, then artillery is the power behind the throne."

[Barret]

-Ultramarines successors

 

-codex and versatile

 

Both of these are fine with me. It fits with what I see as the Chapter's theme emerging from this discussion.

 

-very well equipped

Edited July 13, 2006 by Barret

[Ferrata]

I really fail to see why whirlwinds make a chapter seem defensive. Is it so defensive if the War Bearers advance behind a rolling barrage? Or if they like to be able to call in artillery strikes on a heavy weapons' bunker? Or maybe if they just prefer to pound the stuffing out of the enemy's defenses before moving in and mopping up? Maybe it's just me, but artillery, and especially missile based systems, strike me as very aggressive weapons of war

All Marines are offensive, its what they do. The Guard is defensive, they sit there and take the enemy. So, compartively, a Marine force with a Whirlwind is either balanced or towards defensive (for marines). Being all out offensive (combat) really doesn't fit with having a Whirlwind, as with a little bit of confusion or bad timing and you end up firing upon your own men.

[Barret]

Being all out offensive (combat) really doesn't fit with having a Whirlwind, as with a little bit of confusion or bad timing and you end up firing upon your own men.

 

Bah. Whirlwinds are AP 4 at best. It'd be like a gentle spring shower to Marines. :P

[Heru]

Well in truth Artillery or the Whirlwind in this case have two uses

 

 

1. You could use it to pound the enemy as they advance towards your defensive lines.

 

OR

 

2. You could use it to bombard your enemies defenses just before your APC units rush in and storm the breach.

 

 

 

 

Now perhaps rather than going with a Chapter that is either offensive OR defensive, we could go with a Chapter that is both when the situation dicates.

[Rogue Trader]

Something tells me it wasn't their intention to suggest IH geneseed. However if you went that way, you could have them obsessed with perfection as well, but physical perfection, not bionics. I've always felt that Ferrus would be disappointed to see what his chapter has turned into. The War Bearers could have an antagonistic relationship with their founding chapter, considering them as fallen from the path that Ferrus set them on

Sounds an awful lot like SCC's take on the Brazen Claws :P

[Archangelus]

Now perhaps rather than going with a Chapter that is either offensive OR defensive, we could go with a Chapter that is both when the situation dicates.

 

Exactly! They are effective and efficient, doing what they have to in order to vanquish the enemy! And if said enemy tries to claim air superiority, the War Bearers just bring out their anti-aircraft Hyperios (everybody seems to ignore the fact that the Hyperios is not just a whirlwind).

 

And regarding the religious thing I suggested earlier, yes, we can gladly scrap it.

[Big Woop]

Indeed focusing on a particular slavic culture would be best, if so then I would suggest polish names.

[Nine_Breaker]

Now perhaps rather than going with a Chapter that is either offensive OR defensive, we could go with a Chapter that is both when the situation dicates.

What is a fighting force without flexibility after all? Whether on the defensive or offensive, the overall goal is almost always the same. And that would be to defeat your enemy, utterly and entirely.

 

All Marines are offensive, its what they do. The Guard is defensive, they sit there and take the enemy. So, compartively, a Marine force with a Whirlwind is either balanced or towards defensive (for marines). Being all out offensive (combat) really doesn't fit with having a Whirlwind, as with a little bit of confusion or bad timing and you end up firing upon your own men.

 

That's what communication is for. The only things I'd consider as a defensive weapons are static. Walls, minefields, turrets, bunkers, etc. Now if you mean that a whirlwind isn't suited for an army that wants to get into hand-to-hand combat, and wants to do to "NOW!", then I agree with you. However, I just can't see how whirlwinds or any other type of artillery would stop a force from being very aggressive in the execution of their battle plans or limit an offensive force. One could take a look at one of my DIYs, the Steel Dragons, for an example of this. They live to get right up close to the enemy and tear their intestines out of thir throat. But they aren't World Eaters, and will often use a barrage from whirlwinds to soften the enemy up first and add to the confusion.

 

Before I digress a bit too much, I'd just like to say that all this is my way of saying that the fact that the chapter has a whirlwind shouldn't limit their combat doctrine at all. Nobody said they even use the whirlwind a lot, if at all. And I'm sure even chapters like the Raven Guard, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves all have whirlwinds. Does that make them defensive? doesn't look like it to me.

[Keyoz Devastrius]

The offensive and fleet based thing was more my opinion then all of us and I apology for writing it without proper discussion.

 

The offensive comes from axe in they chapter badge as axes are not defensive weapons.I think that whirlwinds as preliminary bombardment weapons would fit nicely with ruthless and relentless fill of them, and could be quite offensive.

 

I was thinking of them as being in constant move flying from one part of galaxy to another to wage the wars of the Imperium. When they come war comes with them-this was the reason of them being fleet based.

 

Barret:

To follow that, I like the idea of the Chapter being closely tied to the Imperial Guard, perhaps going so far as to recruit from them? It's easy enough to tell if a soldier has potential after he's been in a few real battles, rather than making him kill some beastie barehanded.

 

Would not happened-remember that recruits have to be under 14 years old :wink:

 

-very well equipped comes from War Bearers having something as specialized as Hyperios.

 

-taking pride in what they do …yeah satisfaction would be a better word

 

-ruthless and pragmatic – yeah its quite problematic. we should discuss it

 

I see the ruthless and pragmatic as something like this- commander wants to carpet bomb an occupied city to eliminate an enemy, but he knows that when he does it he will kill people and cripple planets industry and therefore weakening Imperium- he must make a decision, but he is not concerned with the good being of people on the planet ,rather their efficiency to produce weapons and IG regiments to fight the wars of the Imperium.

Edited July 13, 2006 by Keyoz Devastrius

[Ferrata]

Like I said, all marines are offensive in the manner of their battle plans, it is in their nature. When I hear offensive, I assume combat, while defensive is shooting. For Marines, this is more offensive shooting and tactics, but defensive for marines. If you want the War Bearers to have a similiar doctrine to the Salamanders, so up close and personal but not quite combat, then Whirlies will fit.

 

And I'm sure even chapters like the Raven Guard, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves all have whirlwinds. Does that make them defensive? doesn't look like it to me.

But we have more background on them don't we :wink:

[Barret]

Barret:

To follow that, I like the idea of the Chapter being closely tied to the Imperial Guard, perhaps going so far as to recruit from them? It's easy enough to tell if a soldier has potential after he's been in a few real battles, rather than making him kill some beastie barehanded.

 

Would not happened-remember that recruits have to be under 14 years old :wink:

 

I know that's the more common practice, but if the Black Templars can do it, why not the War Bearers?

 

 

I see the ruthless and pragmatic as something like this- commander wants to carpet bomb an occupied city to eliminate an enemy, but he knows that when he does it he will kill people and cripple planets industry and therefore weakening Imperium- he must make a decision, but he is not concerned with the good being of people on the planet ,rather their efficiency to produce weapons and IG regiments to fight the wars of the Imperium.

 

 

Okay, that I can definately buy into. It makes sense, and it fits with the grimness of the Imperium.

[Keyoz Devastrius]

Ah- Black Templars some things in their fluff make me think that the guy who wrote it was drunk Edited July 13, 2006 by Keyoz Devastrius

[Ferrata]

I know that's the more common practice, but if the Black Templars can do it, why not the War Bearers?

I'm sorry, but who ever wrote that deserves to be taken outside and shot. The age limit on the first organs are Ossmodula 10-12 years & Biscopea 10-12 years, though most people accept 10-14 for ages for recruits.

[Hrvat]

Indeed focusing on a particular slavic culture would be best, if so then I would suggest polish names.

 

Rather than focusing on a single state we should rather focus on the language subgroup - West Slavic, East Slavic and South Slavic.

 

My personal opinion is that we should use names from all three subgroups to represent the linguistic differences of peoples living on their homeworld. Since I belong to one of the subgroups(South) I ask members of other groups to provide 20-25 names from their subgroup. It might even provide us with some minor distinctions between companies e.g. while a captain of certain company comes from a certain area he strives to make his company made mostly from marines recuited from the same language subgroup.

 

Oh and I think that the chaplains should have a honourary title of Ratislavs (trans. "Celebrators of war" or "Great warriors" depending on the translation of the word "slav").

 

I will post a few names in half an hour or so.

Edited July 13, 2006 by Hrvat

[Zhivago]

We seem to have agreement that war bearers are not offensive, nor defensive chapter, but use what toold the situation demands, as per codex astartes. Since no-one is throwing ideas of gene-seed we can settle for UM ?

 

And so we have adustable chapter that 'gets the job done, by any means necessety' , with slavic names and UM gene-seed. But do they get the job done humany way (like ultramarines) or are they less humane, yet 'more efective' (marines malevolent)

 

I'd vote for 'more grim' approach, as finding exuse for eing humane is easy, but getting proper motive for being dismissive towards fellow (lesser) men should be intresting.

 

 

I'm sorry, but who ever wrote that deserves to be taken outside and shot. The age limit on the first organs are Ossmodula 10-12 years & Biscopea 10-12 years, though most people accept 10-14 for ages for recruits.

 

My thoughts exactly. GW should do fine to keep some sort of fluff libray for the use of their workers. Lately we have seen much poorly written fluff from GW, at least if previous fluff is takes as canon. :D

 

EDIT: OK, there was summary I missed :tu: But I'd still like the 'not caring the civilians' aspect.

Edited July 13, 2006 by Zhivago

[Keyoz Devastrius]

Last night we had an interesting PM conversation with Zhivago about War Bearers and their way of doing their job.

 

Me:

I see the ruthless and pragmatic as something like this- commander wants to carpet bomb an occupied city to eliminate an enemy, but he knows that when he does it he will kill people and cripple planets industry and therefore weakening Imperium- he must make a decision, but he is not concerned with the good being of people on the planet ,rather their efficiency to produce weapons and IG regiments to fight the wars of the Imperium.

Zhivago:

But would he ? We know that ultramarine commander likely would not. Where as white panthers commander would (see codex SM 3rd edition). Would War Bearers help to nuke out agri-world in front of immediate tyranid invasion ? They would damage imperium surely, but deny nids the biomass they would turn in to more nids.

Would they gun down foe that uses captured humans as shield ? Or try to engage close combat to spare civilians ?

 

Humans can be replaced as far as it is within imperium. Infrastrucure too, even if more slowly.

 

Me:

I think that in some situations being pragmatic also means being ruthless.

They would destroy a agri-world if they did not see any chance of changing hive fleets direction. They would gun down enemy using humans shield if they decided that it is the best way of dealing with them.

Civilians life is not as valuable as marines life, but still it has some value to them. I see them measuring value of humans lives in their usefulness for the Imperum and their

[Archangelus]

War Bearer's manual page 1:

 

War is unavoidable and in war people die. Lets face it, you cannot save everyone;) Collateral damage (see glossary in page 827) is sometimes unavoidable and always unpleasant, but it is what it takes to win the war, then so be it.

Edited July 14, 2006 by Archangelus