Collaborative Chapter Creation Project II

[Hrvat]

Ok here are some south slavic names:

 

Vojnomir

Ljudevit

Ratimir

Braslav

Porga

Borko

Budimir

Vi

[Archangelus]

Could we have a look at other slavic nations/names, as well? Maybe some from the Balkans (Croat, Serb, Bulgarian etc)?

[Hrvat]

These are from the "Balkans".

[Archangelus]

:D

[Heru]

Get the job done, by any means necessary

 

That too me speaks Black Ops / Rogue Originizations, rather than your typical line soldier attitude...

 

I thought we were going with the Soldier idea rather than the better than thou Space Marines who care squat about anything but winning...

 

 

 

Or does being a Soldier mean you don't care these days?

Edited July 14, 2006 by Heru Talon

[Barret]

I thought we were going with the Soldier idea rather than the better than though Space Marines who care squat about anything but winning...

 

This was my impression, too. I'm getting the feeling the discussion to moving more towards an "Angels of Death" attitude for the War Bearers, rather than the soldier idea...

[Grimdarkness]

And so we have adjustable chapter that 'gets the job done, by any means necessary'

 

No not by any means necessary. When Tu'shan slapped the marine malevolent captain he did so because the captain fired into a refugee holding point instead of moving his marines to stop the orks. Thus killing human and ork.

 

When the night lords moved to take bridge 43 iirc from the U.M there where live human captive chained to the night lords rhino's and yet the codex adherent U.M did nothing to save them they stopped the night lords from taking the bridge.

 

The difference is the ultramarines had no option but to inflect the human causality's the marine malevolent did.

 

Two situations two options one right one wrong yes it got the job done but at what cost do we really want a fluffed out marine malevolent or something closer to A WW I BEF where every solider was a pro and knew his job.

[Big Woop]

It feels like the chapter is difficult to define, but maybe that's not a bad thing? Making a chapter that is somewhere in the middle is kind of challenging. How about this: they find satisfaction only in knowing their mission is completed, they don't find any satisfaction in brutality.

 

How about they move from war zone to war zone, not bothering to root out the enemy completely, just trying to achieve a certain military objective (for example they might cripple an army of rebels, then they would leave and let the local imperial guard and the inquisition take care of the rest). To them the job was not left unfinished, as they had won a decisive military victory.

[Keyoz Devastrius]

Heru Talon:

Or does being a Soldier mean you don't care these days?

I was thinking about it this way:

War Bearers are not only Soldiers but also Space Marines-genetically modifier giants who

Edited July 14, 2006 by Keyoz Devastrius

[Ferrata]

It would be the opposite of the relentless thing that I thought we have already agreed about.

Nothing has been agreed on, at the moment we are allowing people's ideas to run free. Just keep talking without agreeing on anything, and at some point Molotov (if he is still intrested in running this) will go stop and then you will move onto the fine detail. Nothing is decided until the final print (the Castellans were of Imperial Fist seed until the last re-write)

[Keyoz Devastrius]

Ferrata:

Nothing has been agreed on, at the moment we are allowing people's ideas to run free. Just keep talking without agreeing on anything, and at some point Molotov (if he is still intrested in running this) will go stop and then you will move onto the fine detail. Nothing is decided until the final print (the Castellans were of Imperial Fist seed until the last re-write)

 

Ok.Thanks and sorry.

 

I think we have a problem with the whole

[ironloki]

BTW. I

[Commissar Molotov]

I'm definately here, I promise! I'm just letting you guys discuss things. There's been some great ideas here so far. I do agree with the latest thoughts that if we make yet another battle-hardened uncaring chapter, we'll be very unoriginal. The idea of a chapter that cares about the civilians is a strong one.

 

I would also agree that Ultramarines (or Imperial Fist) gene-seed is a good idea. Ferrus is a pretty common word in Latin/Gothic, and it shouldn't blinker us and force us into taking an Iron Hands successor. As part of this project we're trying to overcome stereotypes and clich

[Grimdarkness]

It feels like the chapter is difficult to define, but maybe that's not a bad thing? Making a chapter that is somewhere in the middle is kind of challenging. How about this: they find satisfaction only in knowing their mission is completed, they don't find any satisfaction in brutality.

 

Indeed so much so the Mr McNeil had to make uriel ventress a hero who ignored the teaching of the codex.

[Archangelus]

The idea of a chapter that cares about the civilians is a strong one.

 

Do you really think that this would fit with the chapter name? :wacko:

[ironloki]

The idea of a chapter that cares about the civilians is a strong one.

 

Do you really think that this would fit with the chapter name? :wacko:

 

War Bearers - The important part for me is the bearing referance. They are carrying the burden of war for something/someone else. Its not like they are called War Mongers ;) but are aware of their sacrifices/task they have taken.

 

Just my view of course :P

[Brother-Librarian Akritedes]

Ugh. Please, dear god, do NOT bring Uriel "I love everyone and like care bears" Ventris into this. He is NOT any sort of true marine, merely a Marine that has been twisted so that readers can better empathize with him. Learchus is a far better example of a true Space Marine, albeit post training.

 

My view of good Codex abiding Space Marines falls roughly thusly:

 

They do as their ordered. If Chapter Master Damon says "That old lady walking across the street is a heretic, shoot her.", they wouldn't hesitate, they'd shoot her unless there was a big, obvious reason not to. Like, she was also an Inquisitor and just happened to be grocery shopping. And even then, I doubt it.

 

Marine morality really only takes effect at the higher levels. Let's take the Marines Malevolent example from Armageddon, but hypothetically substitute a different chapter. The Company Captain would have a choice to make, and he would need to weigh the options. Is it more efficient to simply pound the refugee camp flat and sacrifice the civilians, or are the civilians valuable enough in terms of useful gain to justify expending a number of his Marines to protect them? It's all a cost-effectiveness determination.

 

--

 

Now, this DOES get skewed. The Salamanders and Space Wolves are prime examples of this because their homeworld's culture and internal chapter culture promote a more "humane" approach, just as the Iron Hands are bent towards a less "humane" approach. I, personally, was never a fan of the goody-two-shoes idea, which is part of why I like the 41st Millenium so much, and would not like to see overly kind and compassionate Marines. To a degree, yes, such as perhaps aiding in rebuilding shattered infrastructure left behind after a particularly vicious war, but not to the point of dying to the last man just to protect a refugee camp. That's a waste of Marine lives and, in the end, a failure of their mission in life, their purpose for being.

 

*cough*

 

Anyways, that's my contribution on morality. I do like a good deal of what's been come up with here, and I agree totally with Nine about artillery. He and I (thanks to a pair of sadistic aussies) have been on the recieving end of THAT particular beatstick faaaaaaar to often. ^_^

[Commissar Molotov]

The idea of a chapter that cares about the civilians is a strong one.

 

Do you really think that this would fit with the chapter name? :D

 

Yes, as 'Loki said, we had discussed the idea that the War Bearers 'bore' the brunt of war. As I said earlier:

 

Ferrata's idea that the chapter 'bears' the weight of war so that the civilians of the Imperium do not have to strikes me as a very interesting one. It lends well to the idea of a very noble, self-sacrificing chapter, an idea I'd like very much to instil. I'm not so sure about them being 'depressive', because that strikes me as a tad tiresome and perhaps overdone. They can be dutiful and acknowledge that it is their weight to bear without being all 'woe is me!'

[Zhivago]

The idea of a chapter that cares about the civilians is a strong one.

 

Do you really think that this would fit with the chapter name? :D

 

Yes, as 'Loki said, we had discussed the idea that the War Bearers 'bore' the brunt of war. As I said earlier:

 

Ferrata's idea that the chapter 'bears' the weight of war so that the civilians of the Imperium do not have to strikes me as a very interesting one. It lends well to the idea of a very noble, self-sacrificing chapter, an idea I'd like very much to instil. I'm not so sure about them being 'depressive', because that strikes me as a tad tiresome and perhaps overdone. They can be dutiful and acknowledge that it is their weight to bear without being all 'woe is me!'

 

But heck, In the grim darkness of 41st centry there can be only war. Where as 'humane' chapters might be more intresting to write, I don't see them being the salt of the game. The game is about dark future where things don't go well. Placing humane enchanted killers from the stars in that universe feels like recruiting pacifists to marine core. (No offense meant to members of either group.)

 

 

Castellans were humane. (Poor reason to make War Bearers grim ;)). But they had exterior motive of being so (the faith thing).

So if WB are so dutiful and acknowledgable, what motivates them ?

Edited July 15, 2006 by Zhivago

[Big Woop]

At first glance the war bearers certainly don't seem humane, compared to the castellans. Perhaps their pilosophy is to carry the burden of war for the people, that they devote themselves to make the people's burden less heavy to bear.

 

i.e they carry the burden of war so that the people won't have to. (though that may seem naive in the setting). As for their motivation, maybe they're simply more aware of the plight of the common man in the empire? Just being pragmatic is not really enough.

Human suffering is something the emperor wanted to lessen right? It's just the circumstances that made the empire descend into consant warfare (correct me if i'm wrong). They might view themselves as more pure in their beliefs than other chapters, more true to the original purpose of the crusade?(or what they see as the original purpose from their point of view)

[Ferrata]

Firstly, I would suggest to stop thinking about the Castellans, don't cheapen the War Bearers by trying to make them different to the Castellans, just let them be what they want to be (or really, what out comes out and sounds good).

 

Secondly, there is a difference between being humane and being nice. A human chapter will try and do anything in its power to limit the civilian death as long as it doesn't impede on the mission. For example, a planet needs to be Orbital Bombarded, the inhumane chapter will just do it without trying to evacuate the population, while the humane chapter will try to evacuate as many citizens as it can before they have to do the bombardment. ironloki has a good story about his marines saving a number of citizens when the didn't have to, that is what I would call humane. A nice chapter helps people rebuild after the war, picks up a young girls lost teddy bear while fighting, Marines don't do this, Marines are not nice.

 

Now, the idea about a Chapter bearing the brunt of the war, or bearing the weight of war could add the depth to the chapter you need. But what is this weight? Is it the physical act of war, so they would step up and defend citizens when it will put them in a position which weakens their mission or does it mean they bearer the emotional trauma of war. Like self-flagellates during the plague, who bearer the sins of humans and removed them via pain, these were not their sins but they bore them, maybe the chapter does something similar. Maybe the bear the sin of failure, even though it is not their failure...

[Zhivago]

Human suffering is something the emperor wanted to lessen right?

Who are you second guess the will fo the Emperor ! :D

 

;)

 

Seriously I think that emperor fought to unite the mankind to ensure their survival. The fact that it required quite a lot of killing was not big hinderance to him.

 

A human chapter will try and do anything in its power to limit the civilian death as long as it doesn't impede on the mission. For example, a planet needs to be Orbital Bombarded, the inhumane chapter will just do it without trying to evacuate the population, while the humane chapter will try to evacuate as many citizens as it can before they have to do the bombardment.

 

How does that definition differ from following ?

 

I think that in some situations being pragmatic also means being ruthless.

They would destroy a agri-world if they did not see any chance of changing hive fleets direction. They would gun down enemy using humans shield if they decided that it is the best way of dealing with them.

Civilians life is not as valuable as marines life, but still it has some value to them. I see them measuring value of humans lives in their usefulness for the Imperum and their “replacebility”- how much time end effort will it take to replace them, how much will it weaken the imperium.

To War Bearers not every humans live is worth the same.

As I see both of 'view' say that WB are willing to cause human suffering, assuming it leads to less suffering in the future. Call it ruthless, or utilitarian :P

 

Like self-flagellates during the plague, who bearer the sins of humans and removed them via pain, these were not their sins but they bore them, maybe the chapter does something similar. Maybe the bear the sin of failure, even though it is not their failure...

 

Now there's a intresting thought. Follow-up would be, 'how they ended with such ideals ?' [iNSERT SOME JUICE STORY FROM HOMEWORLD HERE] ? Or the first captain or his chaplain had some 'peculiar ideas'.

 

Carrying sins of others is... strikingly diffirent from norm imperium, where sinners are punished literally :P

Wether sin is heresy, or not paying taxes.

 

So we have.. self-sacrificing chapter that is utilatarian/ruthless in its way of doing the self sacrifical. This feels bit... oxymoronic to me... Now we have guys who are willing to die for humanity, yet knowing that when they get killed, it means that there are less defenders for the imperium they are saving, meaning that in future they might be unable to prevent larger damage to humanity. Leading oddish paradox. :P

 

EDIT: typos

Edited July 15, 2006 by Zhivago

[Ferrata]

So we have.. self-sacrificing chapter that is utilatarian/ruthless in its way of doing the self sacrifical. This feels bit... oxymoronic to me... Now we have guys who are willing to die for humanity, yet knowing that when they get killed, it means that there are less defenders for the imperium they are saving, meaning that in future they might be unable to prevent larger damage to humanity. Leading oddish paradox

So, develop ideas for both and see which one comes out better, which one do you feel suits the chapter better? Which of the ideas do you think you could make work best.

 

The two examples are not the same, as in my example the WB would not kill civilians unless it was totally neccesary. They would protect the civilians if it put there lifes at risk, because that is what a Space Marine is, a protector of humanity.

[Zhivago]

The two examples are not the same, as in my example the WB would not kill civilians unless it was totally neccesary. They would protect the civilians if it put there lifes at risk, because that is what a Space Marine is, a protector of humanity.

 

So wouold WB in your example make planet fall on planet doomed to get devoured by nids to die a glorious last stand, bearing the war, even if in vain? Or try to evacuate people and then nuke the world (I assume this)

 

 

WB, or how I see them at this poin is that they see the war-waging their duty, and use any and all means avaivable to achieve wanted results. Civilian casualties are avoided, if possible, but they would not think twice of exterminating world before nid invasion, or shelling refugee camp full of orks.

 

They see bearing the war as their duty, and they are willing to die for imperium, assuming that they know that it is for good of the imperium.

[Archangelus]

IIRC in a similar discussion a while ago, here at "Liber" most people agreed that it is the IG's and PDF's duty to evacuate civilians, not of the Astartes.

 

If a world was under Tyrannid assault, wouldn't the SM mostly engage the hive fleet in space, in order to gain time for the ground forces to evacuate as many people as possible? And then nuke the planet :D

 

And please, do not involve Uriel Venris in this one. He was as short-sighted as possible, never getting the big picture ("let's save this planet and let Nightbringer roam free, how bad could that turn out?").