BA and 9th Ed

[Panzer]

Booo. I think that's not a good change. It'll be a mess to point the new stormshield correctly. To be priced right it would need a separate point value for a unit with no invuln, 6+, 5+ and 4+ and even for 3+ and 2+ armour saves. It is has a range from significant boost to nearly worthless. A lieutenant or Librarian without invuln? Hell yes, any day. A terminator captain that already has a 2+/4++? I would think thrice before spending whatever points they want for it. This pice of equipment now makes any Primaris holding it a better terminator. But maybe we are still missing something.

 

Eh that's not much different from how it was before. A unit with a great armour save pays a more for it than a unit with a poor armour save just for both ending up with the same save after equipping a Stormshield. Not necessarily a big problem for Marines since they all have Sv2+ or Sv3+, however it's similar for other armies. 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Panzer

[Gingerninja]

One thing I noticed that I think will be negative for us is a change in the charge phase.

 

We now need to be within engagement range with every unit we declare a charge against. If we are not, the charge will fail.

So no more charging everything within 12" and pile in to fight against what you really want.

[Indefragable]

One thing I noticed that I think will be negative for us is a change in the charge phase.

 

We now need to be within engagement range with every unit we declare a charge against. If we are not, the charge will fail.

So no more charging everything within 12" and pile in to fight against what you really want.

 

True, but anyone who's played 7th or HH will know the strategies of that. Simply put, charge what you want to fight and kill. <mic drop> 

 

Since "tagging" units to turn off shooting and such no longer works, especially against vehicles and MC's, I think we would naturally be seeing less of the "I declare all eligible targets" charge technique anyways. 

 

**************

 

Core rules are free. 

 

As for this....

 

Hidden Content

 

 

If it had a sword as well then, for me, it would crest the ridge of ridiculous and worthy of ridicule to ridiculous and awesome in a 40k way. 

 

[Xenith]

Booo. I think that's not a good change. It'll be a mess to point the new stormshield correctly. To be priced right it would need a separate point value for a unit with no invuln, 6+, 5+ and 4+ and even for 3+ and 2+ armour saves. It is has a range from significant boost to nearly worthless. A lieutenant or Librarian without invuln? Hell yes, any day. A terminator captain that already has a 2+/4++? I would think thrice before spending whatever points they want for it. This pice of equipment now makes any Primaris holding it a better terminator. But maybe we are still missing something.

 

Not really, but quite the opposite, I feel.

 

Having the shield be a modifier means it gives a flat +17% improvement to saves across the board. That's pretty easy to point. Currently the shield improves a captains invun save by 1, a terminators by 2, and a vanguard veterans by 4, all of which should have separate point costs. 

[Rhavien]

 

 

Booo. I think that's not a good change. It'll be a mess to point the new stormshield correctly. To be priced right it would need a separate point value for a unit with no invuln, 6+, 5+ and 4+ and even for 3+ and 2+ armour saves. It is has a range from significant boost to nearly worthless. A lieutenant or Librarian without invuln? Hell yes, any day. A terminator captain that already has a 2+/4++? I would think thrice before spending whatever points they want for it. This pice of equipment now makes any Primaris holding it a better terminator. But maybe we are still missing something.

Eh that's not much different from how it was before. A unit with a great armour save pays a more for it than a unit with a poor armour save just for both ending up with the same save after equipping a Stormshield. Not necessarily a big problem for Marines since they all have Sv2+ or Sv3+, however it's similar for other armies.

But you still got a significant improvement in the end. There is no character that has a build in 3++,so you paid the points to get that sweet 66% chance to save anything that gets thrown at you (well bare those pesky mortal wounds...). Now you pay to either get a redundant invuln and a 2+ save on captains or to get a 2+ and a 4++ on everyone else that can take a stormshield.

But time will tell. If GW doesn't change the old stormshields in their day one FAQ we will be back in the good ol times where stormshields can be different depending on who uses them.

 

-edit- yeah and also those terminators in the middle of the ground.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Rhavien

[Arkhanist]

If they do change terminator SS datasheet to +1sv, 4++ then that creates an effective 2++. So either they leave terminator SS alone, or there's going to be some FAQing.

 

To explain - rolls in 9th can't be modified below 1, so regardless of AP, the lowest the save roll can be modified to is 1. Hit with a lascannon? save roll cannot be modified to worse than 1. Normal save characteristic is changed by the shield to 1+  - so RAW always passes. Oops. However there is another rule that natural rolls of 1 always fail, so effectively, regardless of AP a 1+ save can only fail on natural 1s - i.e. a 2++.

 

Would be lore appropriate, but seems unlikely they're going to let that stand.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Hoorah for 90% painted army. I'm almost for sure garunteed 10 points. w00t

[Indefragable]

All this talk about the storm shield 1+ save thing is making my head hurt.

 

In 8th, wasn’t it all math, where some units had 7+ saves (aka only in cover)? Certainly to my mind the opposite holds true with a theoretical 1+ or -1+ save.... a -1+ would turn AP-4 into a 4+ Sv, etc.... a rolled 1 for a saving throwing always fails, so basically anything better than a 2+ reduces the AP as well, right?

 

Hidden Content

 

Sv2+ vs AP0 = 2+

Sv2+ vs AP-1 = 3+

Sv2+ vs AP-2 = 4+

Sv2+ vs AP-3 = 5+

Sv2+ vs AP-4 = 6+

 

Sv1+ vs AP0 = 2+

Sv1+ vs AP-1 = 2+

Sv1+ vs AP-2 = 3+

Sv1+ vs AP-3 = 4+

Sv1+ vs AP-4 = 5+

 

Sv-1+ vs AP0 = 2+

Sv-1+ vs AP-1 = 2+

Sv-1+ vs AP-2 = 2+

Sv-1+ vs AP-3 = 3+

Sv-1+ vs AP-4 = 4+

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Indefragable

[Morticon]

Hey all - do we have confirmation on the +1 armour on the SS ?  I only read about the 4++ change.  

In fact, do we have confirmation on either of those?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Hey all - do we have confirmation on the +1 armour on the SS ? I only read about the 4++ change.

 

In fact, do we have confirmation on either of those?

On current indomitus stuff yes.

[The Unseen]

I'm actually really sad the Frag Cannon got the Blast keyword. Like, its kinda cute when you fire it at big units, but I would've much preferred being able to fire it in cc. GW can't let the Fragioso be good I guess. I'd like to know how a weapon with an 8" range is somehow "too dangerous" to fire at a target in melee.

Sadface :(

[Hintzy]

How's everybody feeling about the Bladeguard? Strength 5 master crafted swords, 3 attacks, 3 wounds, and the new storm shield. They look pretty interesting to me, loaded in an Impulsor maybe. They'll melt Primaris Marine types without any trouble.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

How's everybody feeling about the Bladeguard? Strength 5 master crafted swords, 3 attacks, 3 wounds, and the new storm shield. They look pretty interesting to me, loaded in an Impulsor maybe. They'll melt Primaris Marine types without any trouble.

Not that great for BA unless they have a delivery method. Squad of three is the piss. If they could go up to 5/6 I would be more inclined to use them for BA. As of now they need an impulsor.

 

In my opinion anyways.

[Rhavien]

I'm actually really sad the Frag Cannon got the Blast keyword. Like, its kinda cute when you fire it at big units, but I would've much preferred being able to fire it in cc. GW can't let the Fragioso be good I guess. I'd like to know how a weapon with an 8" range is somehow "too dangerous" to fire at a target in melee.

Sadface :(

I feel you. It's basically a shotgut launching scrap metal bits and not an explosive weapon. Leaves the weapon in a really odd place. Short ranged to be lucky to get one shot at all. Seems the frag cannon arms stay off for this edition, too.

[Karhedron]

 

How's everybody feeling about the Bladeguard? Strength 5 master crafted swords, 3 attacks, 3 wounds, and the new storm shield. They look pretty interesting to me, loaded in an Impulsor maybe. They'll melt Primaris Marine types without any trouble.

Not that great for BA unless they have a delivery method. Squad of three is the piss. If they could go up to 5/6 I would be more inclined to use them for BA. As of now they need an impulsor.

 

They are more built for counter-charging than spearheading an assault. They look very shiny but I don't see them superseding Sanguinary Guard. Maybe they have some value as a bodyguard for Mephiston if you want to put him in an Impulsor.

 

Vanilla Chainswords getting AP-1 breaths a lot of life into Death Company IMHO. Even bolter + Chainsword dudes hit significantly harder now. We will have to see how everything gets repointed but the wide availability of Chainswords on our Firstborn units could be tasty.

[Wassa]

Unless they retrospectively update all previous datasheets, existing chainswords aren't the new buffed "Astartes Chainswords". They may be Primaris only.

[Panzer]

Eh, I plan to take at least one unit of the Bladeguard Veterans. They are almost perfect for me (a JP is all that's left for them to be actually perfect). A unit size of 3 is fine considering they are almost on Custodes level. I'll just put them into an Impulsor with 4++ together with the Bladeguard Captain, the Bladeguard Ancient and either the Lieutenant or the Judicar. Perhaps a second Impulsor with 2x3 Baldeguard Veterans alongside of it. 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Panzer

[Vermintide]

I think this 9th ed Indomitus box might be the first time I pony up and pre-order a new edition starter set. It's got both my armies, so in terms of model value it's a no brainer, and the Marine units look like they were made specifically for us as BA players.

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around how the changes to coherency charging and combat etc affect us. I had definitely grown tired of the whole "Wrap and trap bro! Most powerful phase in the game!1!" thing, but my instincts are saying this is kind of a nerf for combat armies that already had it difficult.

 

It's hard to visualise how the changes will play out until having played a game though. Or more like, having watched a battle report while taking another 6-9 months to paint all the new stuff before I even play I used to joke about how a new edition would come out before I had 2000pts finished, and here we are.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Vermintide

[BluejayJunior]

Unless they retrospectively update all previous datasheets, existing chainswords aren't the new buffed "Astartes Chainswords". They may be Primaris only.

GW have stated that all the chainswords are being updated to Astartes Chainswords. 

[Indefragable]

How's everybody feeling about the Bladeguard? Strength 5 master crafted swords, 3 attacks, 3 wounds, and the new storm shield. They look pretty interesting to me, loaded in an Impulsor maybe. They'll melt Primaris Marine types without any trouble.

The pessimist in me says that GW will say Sanguinary Guard are just a coat of paint on these guys.

 

For some that’s ecstasy, for me that would be “I’m out.”

 

But I’m on record as saying I prefer BA to be distinctive and less Red Marines.

[Blindhamster]

i love the bladeguard, very cool unit with nice models. I'd consider giving them SG heads and perhaps trying to get the BA terminator sergeant shield to use on them too.

I do still hope sanguinary guard will get an actual primaris update eventually though - specifically because primaris muscle armour needs to be a thing. Although I bet if they do, they'll go for sculpted greaves like Dante this time around and he'll get an update at the same time.

[Vermintide]

I have no doubt we'll get one before too long. I did have a feeling that BA boxed set last year was an attempt to move some old stock of those models.

 

I'd consider it pretty likely that an update (or not-quite-the-same-but-almost replacement, as is the fashion with Primaris) is in the works to coincide with the 9th ed BA codex. Not gonna lie though I'd be pretty annoyed if the stuff I already converted to use as Primaris equivalents becomes unusable.

[Panzer]

i love the bladeguard, very cool unit with nice models. I'd consider giving them SG heads and perhaps trying to get the BA terminator sergeant shield to use on them too.

 

I do still hope sanguinary guard will get an actual primaris update eventually though - specifically because primaris muscle armour needs to be a thing. Although I bet if they do, they'll go for sculpted greaves like Dante this time around and he'll get an update at the same time.

I was thinking about that as well but ultimately I want to keep their knight aesthetic since it fits my custom successor just too well ... plus I gave my Reivers already SG heads (which I will retire once we get real Primaris SG I guess). :D

[Chronos1985]

I hope we will get a chance to see Dante w/ SG before Christmas. These primaris releases gets me super excited to see what the Sanguinary guard are like. I'm hoping they are as dynamic as the forgeworld Dawnbreaker kits and Custode Venetari. With these new plastic molds, the lifeless primaris death masks may actually look terrifying with a tad more detail. 

[Karhedron]

For most of 8th, they tried to avoid introducing straight Primaris replacements for Firstborn units. Outriders however appear to be a direct replacement for Marine Bikes so we may start to see more units getting Primaris replacements in 9th.

 

Although I suspect GW will be doing plenty of new stuff before they look at Primaris SG.