Space Marine MauntyHall.

[Joah from Alberta]

From what I gather online, GW should have just instated a simple rule:

 

A Space Marine player may roll a dice at the beginning of the game: roll of 2 - 6 Space Marine Player Wins! roll of 1 play the game as normal.

 

http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2008/0...ce-marines.html

[Alkana]

What?

[chillin]

That's quite premature. Although the upcoming s/m dex does look VERY good, at this point we don't know the pts cost of some of the goodies the s/m's are getting or how the army will wk on a whole, do we ?

The thing that does erk me a bit is that their dex is obviously FULL of options and allows them to accuratly field alot of different chapters/armys and have those different armies be competive and fluffy, something we have definately lost in our (chaos) sad sad dex.

[sexiest_hero]

Mybe all of their stuff will be so overly expensive it will balance out, sept for that hole taking ten troopers gives you a free S.weapon. Looks like the Emp's Sacred number is ten.

[brother heckengar]

Like everything else it`s dex creep again. Maybe one day we will be the one getting the the almighty great dex for once. At least give us are old one back so we can have a fighting chance. And I hope that GW make the World Eaters a real assualt army, with assualt wepons, not just boltpistol and chainswords.

[Sons of Horus]

well i kind of expected GW to over-do the space marines. lets just wait and see before we panic after all Tzeentch did plan this out.:)

[styx]

The one issue that I had a heart attack about was the 10 squads getting a free flamer, missiile launcher, multi melta or heavy bolter. At first I was annoyed by this. Then I thought, Chaos still has a bolter, CCW and pistol. 1pt each for the bonus CCW, is 10pts same cost as most of the above aside from the flamer as most are about 10pts. That said, I don't feel so bad. I do feel slighted by my Dark Angels and my friend that is working on Blood Angels and has a Black Templar army.

[Dosadi]

I'm seeing a lot of “doom and gloom” about this new ‘dex. I guess it’s to be expected (I mean it wouldn’t be new codex time without all the cryin’). We pretty much hear this sort of talk with every new codex before it comes out. I don’t wanna bash all the whiners, but seriously, how many times do we need to go through this?

Once people see the list in the greater context they realize that it’s not all that over-powered. After all you are only hearing about the killer new stuff SM are getting (without the benefit of knowing how much it’s going to cost). Of course they are going to sound uber-leet at this point.

I don’t want to get into it here as it’s the wrong place, but I’ve not only seen the new codex, but I’ve played against it…and WON! Granted the guy wasn’t using any of the new toys (pretty much transferred his old list into the new codex), but I did get to see Combat Tactics in action; FNP on a command squad and the new Drop Pod with typhoon launcher (got a big boost OMG!). I’m not that intimidated by it.

My Red Corsairs beat the new SM in an Annihilation game 9KP to 6KP (1500pt game).

Get over it, the new SMs are not going to break the game and I will continue to play Chaos Marines as I like the flexibility you get from the list.

What was important was that it felt like I was playing against a SM army. I never felt like what was coming at me was anything but a bunch of Codex worshiping, deluded, false empitor luvin’ beakies.

 

 

Dosadi

[Deneris]

Another point to remember- Whatever shiny new stuff they get in Codex:SM we CSM Commanders can always "loot" and use in Apocalypse... Traitor Thunderfire canons, anyone? :)

[refuse]

well i kind of expected GW to over-do the space marines. lets just wait and see before we panic after all Tzeentch did plan this out.:)

 

 

I'm seeing a lot of “doom and gloom” about this new ‘dex. I guess it’s to be expected (I mean it wouldn’t be new codex time without all the cryin’). We pretty much hear this sort of talk with every new codex before it comes out. I don’t wanna bash all the whiners, but seriously, how many times do we need to go through this?

Once people see the list in the greater context they realize that it’s not all that over-powered. After all you are only hearing about the killer new stuff SM are getting (without the benefit of knowing how much it’s going to cost). Of course they are going to sound uber-leet at this point.

I don’t want to get into it here as it’s the wrong place, but I’ve not only seen the new codex, but I’ve played against it…and WON! Granted the guy wasn’t using any of the new toys (pretty much transferred his old list into the new codex), but I did get to see Combat Tactics in action; FNP on a command squad and the new Drop Pod with typhoon launcher (got a big boost OMG!). I’m not that intimidated by it.

My Red Corsairs beat the new SM in an Annihilation game 9KP to 6KP (1500pt game).

Get over it, the new SMs are not going to break the game and I will continue to play Chaos Marines as I like the flexibility you get from the list.

What was important was that it felt like I was playing against a SM army. I never felt like what was coming at me was anything but a bunch of Codex worshiping, deluded, false empitor luvin’ beakies.

 

 

Dosadi

What I find funny.

 

 

I'm seeing a lot of “doom and gloom” about this new ‘dex.

lets just wait and see before we panic after all Tzeentch did plan this out.

 

You do realize, that by now, people have seen/have the codex. These same statements were made months before C:CSM came out. And they are said by people before orks, DA, BA . . . Before every codex.

Yes, some of the more obvious combos will not pan out, and others will be found.

 

Again, you like this, or they like that. But couldn't people say "get over the fanboy attitudes?" Wouldn't they be just as right as you claiming they are doom and gloom? Or just wait?

 

And of course they felt like SM, Chaos doesn't feel like Chaos anymore, so anything more then the Chaos we have feels more like Chaos. I mean if you define chaos by the current book, Khorne+Slaanesh = :). Nurgle + Tzeentch= :wub: What is Chaos?

 

Remember, the new chaos' books justifications. Streamlined, less options to be less complicated, you can't represent 9 legions in a single book, uniqueness creates complexity so that is out.

 

 

 

Hmm.

Then look at the new SM book.

 

Librarian

Leadership 10, and has an entire page of various powers to select from. Big news is the Psychic Hood which now has a range of 24" instead of infinite.[

More Psychic then Tzeentch (who is now more HTH by the way).

Nice to see Tzeentch isn't the master of the Warp/Sorcery (yeah, that makes SM not feel like Chaos, they are better psykers regardless of cost, cause Tzeentch has always and is still costly).

 

Master of the Forge

Access to the Conversion Beamer, an old-school Rogue Trader era weapon with a 72" range that grows more powerful the greater the distance to its targets. At its top end, it is S:10 AP:1 Small Blast.

Wait, Marines of any chapter (not legions) have more old school pre-heresy weapons, then Chaos?

Yeah, makes more sense the guys < 10000 years old have the 10,000 year old weapons? That wouldn't make them more like Chaos to have old weapons? Hmm.

 

Techmarines

Has a power allowing you to improve the cover save of a single piece of ruins in your deployment zone by +1. Access to the Thunderfire Cannon, which is artillery and has multiple fire modes based upon 4 small blast markers. One of the fire modes makes its target count as being in difficult ground next turn.

Good thing chaos got rid of the basalisk and gave it to the marines. Oh, sorry. Uh. Yeah, so now any marine chapter is more like Iron Warriors then the Iron Warriors. That doesn't make them more like chaos?

 

Honor Guard

These bad boys have access to "Relic blades" which are +2S powerweapons. Their squad leader is the "Company Champion" who is required to direct attacks vs enemy ICs if possible.

Hmm, so Daemonic STR = Bad as that is confusing. Squads with specific upgrades (Daemonic STR, combat drugs) = bad. Now Marines do it! Yeah.. Uh, so they are relic blades, not Daemonic Strength. Right, less Chaotic.

 

Tactical Squads

Available in 5-10 men. Squads of ten grant access to Flamer/Multimelta/Missile Launcher/Heavy Bolter for FREE. Squads less than 10 may not purchase any special or heavy weapons

Hmm, so we get BP/CCW/Bolter and can take a Heavy weapon at 10.

 

Yeah, Marines seem alot different then Chaos (who were marines) especially those renegades who just were marines. Oh wait, Space Marines are more customizable (defined as bad in the new Chaos codex) then Chaos.

 

Thank God GW is consistent. I mean I would hate to think that C:CSM was rushed, wrong, or a mistake.

 

Another point to remember- Whatever shiny new stuff they get in Codex:SM we CSM Commanders can always "loot" and use in Apocalypse... Traitor Thunderfire canons, anyone? :lol:

Yeah, we can play apocalypse now if we want to play Chaos.

Thank god For apocalypse. It absolves GW of all design requirements and fluff.

 

And think the SM don't need to play Apoc to play Chaos, but Chaos needs to play Apoc to play, uh, chaos.

[Joah from Alberta]

I dunno, there's alot of uber content in this new SM dex. All I gotta say is if GW don't price *1 thing right, it's gonna be spammed all over. And judging from what I see, there's alot of stuff that they can accidentally price wrong.

 

I suppose it remains to be seen ... (maybe it's just my undying hatred for SM shining through) ...

 

Cheers,

[Librarian]

Another point to remember- Whatever shiny new stuff they get in Codex:SM we CSM Commanders can always "loot" and use in Apocalypse... Traitor Thunderfire canons, anyone? ^_^

 

A cold comfort. Even Tyranids can loot a Thunderfire canon and use it in Apocalypse...

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Those assault marine vets who can assault the turn they deepstrike will be a lot of fun to fight against. Of course our 10,000 year old raptors do not qualify as "veterens"

[sexiest_hero]

Don't for get the land speader that can shut down teleport homers and icons. But all in all I'm glad GW kept thier word and Made a chaos legion codex, too bad they named it C:SM, must be a typo.

[chillin]

I'm not too worried yet bout the s/m being overpowered, as that remains to be seen.

What I do find annoying (to say the least), and Refuse hit on it alittle bit, it that some of the undivided legions seem to be better represented by the s/m dex then by the csm dex.

 

IW = Master of the Forge, +1 BS tank guy, tech marine

NL = raven guard, or white scars leaders + army abilities

AL = infiltrating guy (don't know name or chapter) + scouts (cultists)

WB = stubbern of CF to reprensent religious seal, chapplins (no daemons though)

BL "all undivided" = UM

and for everybody, vets that perform like vets, "lords" w/ retinues, ways to represent undivided legions w/out just saying "I'll handicap, myself by not taking any marks/cult troops so I can have a fluffy army"

** and how the hell did librarians become better psykers then sorc's that pledge their souls to Tz the god of sorc. anyway ??? :D

 

Of course no landspeeders, multimeltas or anything else that is specificly s/m and not csm according to tech/fluff.

 

I'm not suggesting anyone use s/m dex it just seems "ironic" that the undivided legions could be better represented using the s/m dex then the csm dex.

 

I don't write this to begrudge s/m players anything, I just wish C:csm represented (undivided) csm legions better then the s/m dex does.

[deadfuse]

Another point to remember- Whatever shiny new stuff they get in Codex:SM we CSM Commanders can always "loot" and use in Apocalypse... Traitor Thunderfire canons, anyone? ;)

Well, it's a good thing I've always played my Chaos marines more as Renegades, so in the worst case scenario, I can always just use the SM codex and say it's a more recent traitor chapter. I've done it before, when I felt like using my oop Grey Knight terminator models (that look about 40,000 times better than the new ones).

 

I like the entire CSM/SM model range, so I can just buy the new stuff, throw a few spike bits on it, and call it a day.:D

[Joah from Alberta]

I WILL NEVER play SM. I'd rather contemplate, (contemplating) suicide, then contemplate playing Space Marines.

 

My fathers fought against those nations that believed in Uberman. My ancestry vehemently opposed eugenic destiny for the sanctity of natural diversity. Death to the false Emperor!!!

 

(Our only saving grace with this overpowered 'dex is that most Space Marine players are pin-heads.) :blush:

 

I'm feeling somewhat irate as Sorry, but this board is currently unavailable. Please try again later.

 

I'll post a positive post sometime tonight, I promise,

 

Cheers,

[Deneris]

Another point to remember- Whatever shiny new stuff they get in Codex:SM we CSM Commanders can always "loot" and use in Apocalypse... Traitor Thunderfire canons, anyone? ^_^

Yeah, we can play apocalypse now if we want to play Chaos.

Thank god For apocalypse. It absolves GW of all design requirements and fluff.

 

And think the SM don't need to play Apoc to play Chaos, but Chaos needs to play Apoc to play, uh, chaos.

 

I was merely trying to put some sort of good spin on a rather :cuss ed -up situation.

 

If I wanted to vent, I'd be complaining (Once again) about the generic no-name daemons that we got saddled with, and the only way to get "proper" daemons is to use Apocalypse...

 

Wait til the eventual Inquisition codex gives Loyalists access to better daemons than we have... :P

[deadfuse]

From what I gather online, GW should have just instated a simple rule:

 

A Space Marine player may roll a dice at the beginning of the game: roll of 2 - 6 Space Marine Player Wins! roll of 1 play the game as normal.

 

http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2008/0...ce-marines.html

QQ more.

[the jeske]

nah the sm is ok . only thing that makes me a dislike thorpe more is the fact that you can make a lot of different armies with it . and they will have different playstyle [not like chaos armies that have paint jobs only] . the amount of extra stuff they get is great [for the sm players also am not saying that all the new stuff is good ] . I mean I wonder do the IW have any siege dreadnoughts ? or how the WE are now slower to get in to hth , then normal RG [shriek gives fleet to whole army]. etc etc

But we have the lash and oblits and the PM . We still uber [thats if you play BL , if you play undivied then its "hello there , table 6 "].

[Brother Drakist]

Wait for the costs....I think the SM forces will be pretty damn expensive if they want to use all of the shiny stuff. Remember that the scoring units will most likely still be your bog standard Space Marines. Bare in mind that they only get 1 Attack in CC, and they cannot be as specialized as Berzerks/Plague Marines/T-sons. Chaos still has the best "Troop" choices in my opinion when it comes down to it. Who is scoring in 5th? Chaos troops while pricey can do a lot compared to Space Marines.

 

Needless to say I am starting a Khorne army for the intial impact of the SM codex because everyone and their mother will be running SM armies until the urge to do so runs cold. That and I fear that my Salamanders will become flavor of the month. I think that people should wait and see as to what Space Marine forces they will be facing before complaining. Just my opinion though.

[refuse]

Another point to remember- Whatever shiny new stuff they get in Codex:SM we CSM Commanders can always "loot" and use in Apocalypse... Traitor Thunderfire canons, anyone? :blink:

Yeah, we can play apocalypse now if we want to play Chaos.

Thank god For apocalypse. It absolves GW of all design requirements and fluff.

 

And think the SM don't need to play Apoc to play Chaos, but Chaos needs to play Apoc to play, uh, chaos.

 

I was merely trying to put some sort of good spin on a rather :P ed -up situation.

 

If I wanted to vent, I'd be complaining (Once again) about the generic no-name daemons that we got saddled with, and the only way to get "proper" daemons is to use Apocalypse...

 

Wait til the eventual Inquisition codex gives Loyalists access to better daemons than we have... ;)

I know. :P

The issue is, Apoc and Count as is the only option for some Legion players.

 

 

Wait for the costs....I think the SM forces will be pretty damn expensive if they want to use all of the shiny stuff. Remember that the scoring units will most likely still be your bog standard Space Marines. Bare in mind that they only get 1 Attack in CC, and they cannot be as specialized as Berzerks/Plague Marines/T-sons. Chaos still has the best "Troop" choices in my opinion when it comes down to it. Who is scoring in 5th? Chaos troops while pricey can do a lot compared to Space Marines.

 

Needless to say I am starting a Khorne army for the intial impact of the SM codex because everyone and their mother will be running SM armies until the urge to do so runs cold. That and I fear that my Salamanders will become flavor of the month. I think that people should wait and see as to what Space Marine forces they will be facing before complaining. Just my opinion though.

Chaos has always cost more then Marines. They are more veteran, and more rare then marines. So they use to be one of the smaller armies. I think in 2nd you could take marine stuff at +50% cost. So you always expected to be smaller, more elite, more rare.

 

But to some of your points:

Combat Tactics – allows any SM unit to voluntarily pass/fail any morale check.

Bare in Mind, SM's can now choose to pass of fail morale. This means they will if shot, attempt to fall back out of charge range.

 

Narthacium/Reductor – confers Feel no Pain upon the unit only (plus any attached ICs).

Marines don't only get +1 attack in CC. They can take gear and whole army rules that will alow them to do more. A marine can't be as specialized, but the whole army can benefit from "chatper rules". And I am not sure chaos will have the best troop choices. So the ICs and vets of Marines will be more specialized, or dedicated then the specialized units of Chaos.

 

Combat Squads - squads may split and Drop Pods squads may choose to split after landing.

Remember Marines can split into combat squads. We can have 6 + daemons. They can have 12. So unless you are playing lots of cheap units of Daemons, marines will probably have more "Troop" capturing units then any other army.

 

Marine troops won't be as specialized, but we see that Marine's with their Elites more specialized (kind of).

You have fast Troops (scouts) with a skimmer.

You have mobile firebase troops with a Razorback.

You have Combat Team squads (small 2x scoring units).

 

But, characters will modify this.

 

Kor'Sarro Khan - a White Scars Captain who allows Bike Squads as Troops among other things.

Pedro Cantor – wargear is still sketchy (storm bolter - "Dorn's arrow" AP4 Assault4) but his army may replace Combat Tactics with Stubborn (according to one rumor "Hold the Line") or Prefered Enemy (Orks) (different rumor) and Sternguard Vets count as scoring units (but may not be taken as Troops). He also gets Orbital Strike.

 

So characters will allow units to become scoring (potentially raising the Marines in the case of Cantor) to 15 Scoring units (if there are 3 sternguard and 6 troops with combat squads).

hmm.

 

Except for the +1 attack, I don't really see C:CSM all that better. And since I play Noise Marines/Emperor's Children, a medium range shooting army, the +1 attack doesn't help me.

 

I mean, is that all Chaos is now? +1 attack? We all have to rush into fight? Lash to get the enemy closer (not like they won't be running now) and blamo.

Also note. the Specialized Bezerkers, Plague Marines, T-Sons (Can't use them as my army (chapter) is slaanesh) all are only useable if you ignore fluff for certain armies.

 

So again, Chaos is just this spikey group of 1/2 marines.

 

 

 

Also,

 

I don't think you should start your Khorne army. After all, you should wait and see if people flock to the new codex. I mean, don't start modifying your army now. Wait and see.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=142206

[deadfuse]

IIRC, the new SMs will be 90 for a base unit and 16 for each additional one. Anyway, I'm sure they'll also have bolter/pistol/ccw kit, since it's being written my Gav "The Only One To Ever Match My Cheese Is Andy Chambers" Thorpe.

 

The link above is dead btw.

[refuse]

Note: I don't begrudge the SMs. Not at all.

 

I just find it laughable that all the people that defended the C:CSM dumbing down and streamlining as the way to go. . . Now?

 

Also, the whole, to many choices makes a bad codex (such as 45 units is to many).

[chillin]

I also have read/heard that s/m's will have bolter/bp/ccw standard, which means that chaos doesn't have +1 attack (if that's true, but I've read it several times and in several places, so...

-

Again not crying s/m are going to be overpowered, just with they had put the effort and thought into our dex as the did the s/m dex.

The s/m dex already seems more interesting to play and experiment with.

You meet some one for a game, they say I play s/m. You are going to have NO IDEA what you are going to be up against. Chaos used to be like that.

Now your opponent knows you play chaos, he's thinking, is it going to be dual lash w/ PM's and templates OR short range firefight/assault.