Space Marine MauntyHall.

[Brother Drakist]

After looking over the Chaos book last night I was thinking. Does it not seem that a number of the Legions have splintered into smaller warbands? Look at the number of Cult troops that are joining Abaddon. I think the goal of the Choas book was to offer diversity through the breaking of the original Legions. This by far offers the most flexible forces. The problem is that now those who had collected armies according to the previous codex were left out in the cold, and lost a good amount of character.

 

I see why this new SM book upsets the Chaos players, but again the book really follows the theme of the Space Marines. Organized, disciplined and unique in their own ways. This uniqueness is achieved via Special Characters, and the effect of their "combat tactics" applies to the entire army. However, the Chaos book achieves this level of uniqueness on a troop basis. As I said before having Plague Marines for holding objectives, Tsons for downing MEQs, and Berzerkers for pretty much destroying anything in CC is a HUGE bonus. Plus, they are Troops, the plentiful FOC option available. Chaos could pretty much fulfill every roll with their troops, and just a couple heavies. The flexibility of the list is there. The problem is that it came at the cost of the soul/character of the Legions.

 

Either way I am still doing an army of all Khorne Berzerkers. :)

[Lay]

the book really follows the theme of the Space Marines. Organized, disciplined and unique in their own ways.

Is everybody else unorganized, undisciplined and the same?

[deadfuse]

I don't think anyone is debating the effectiveness of the new Chaos codex. There are a number of nasty things in there. Plague Marines, Berserkers, terminators with combi-plasmas, etc. You most certainly can win, and win a lot, with this codex.

 

Sadly, I have to agree with Refuse that this is more a pamphlet than a real codex. They replaced half the marks with icons, they removed daemonic mutations, they cut out Legion rules and standardized daemons. All in all, a lot of the "Chaos" has been stripped away except in name, and left a codex almost as bland in choice and customization as the Dark Eldar one.

[Joah from Alberta]

Gentlemen, things change. Rather than focus on the unchanging, concentrate upon the elements that can be changed. Practice greater acceptance for greater providence.

 

We should be grateful that GW is publishing new army material, irregardless of our own petty codex.

 

On the other hand, I myself feel for the loss of identity, sniff ToBB, chain-axes, Axe of Khorne, et al goodness ... hence why my New World Eaters will someday achieve worldwide approval.

 

One can only dream if one can hope,

[Xenocidal Maniac]

Ok, Refuse. You have "Moderat" all over your sig and profile, and I am new to this forum, so how am I to know you aren't a mod? So if you don't want to confuse noobs and then call their reading abilities into question, you should make some changes.

 

In any case, I've found that there is absolutely no arguing with people as obviously passionate about hating the new Chaos dex. You've got your minds made up. And all it does is frustrate me to argue. I unabashedly like the new dex and think that the old one was a steaming turd.

 

Back to the discussion at hand

 

If Space Marines truly will be getting 2 CC attacks base, then, yes, I will be quite frustrated. I understand that we can be swept, don't have ATSKNF or combat tactics, but it seems to me that they gave us that extra CC attack to make up for it. That's the only possible reason they can justify us being the same points cost for a basic marine. I used to think that ATSKNF was more valuable than an extra CC attack, but, while ATSNKF is no doubt the best special rule in the game, in actual practice that extra attack is working out pretty well for me. It really helps now that the new CC rules are so devestating for the loser.

 

But, I have the feeling that they will simply be getting a bolter and bolt pistol. Here is hoping, anyway.

 

Chaos should be pretty balanced vs. loyalist in the end, though. We've still got some pretty nasty isht. Oblits, Lash, DPs, Plague Marines, Berserkers, etc. And our versatility makes us resilient. We are almost aspect warriors with 3+ saves and great stats.

[refuse]

Ok, Refuse. You have "Moderat" all over your sig and profile, and I am new to this forum, so how am I to know you aren't a mod? So if you don't want to confuse noobs and then call their reading abilities into question, you should make some changes.

They can read the rules. They are right there in it.

And that is the title given to me. We can't change our titles, nor more then you can.

And isn't that part of the 1,000,000 times before?

Read the forum rules, and then the answer is clear.

It is not I who should change behavior. :)

 

In any case, I've found that there is absolutely no arguing with people as obviously passionate about hating the new Chaos dex. You've got your minds made up. And all it does is frustrate me to argue. I unabashedly like the new dex and think that the old one was a steaming turd.

Funny, people that dislike this codex (for the fluff/legion aspect) find they think the same way about people that are pro-codex.

But, I can't play my army (Noise Marines), and without count-as/or create a new army, you can't tell me how to play it.

 

Back to the discussion at hand

 

If Space Marines truly will be getting 2 CC attacks base, then, yes, I will be quite frustrated. I understand that we can be swept, don't have ATSKNF or combat tactics, but it seems to me that they gave us that extra CC attack to make up for it. That's the only possible reason they can justify us being the same points cost for a basic marine. I used to think that ATSKNF was more valuable than an extra CC attack, but, while ATSNKF is no doubt the best special rule in the game, in actual practice that extra attack is working out pretty well for me. It really helps now that the new CC rules are so devestating for the loser.

 

But, I have the feeling that they will simply be getting a bolter and bolt pistol. Here is hoping, anyway.

 

Chaos should be pretty balanced vs. loyalist in the end, though. We've still got some pretty nasty isht. Oblits, Lash, DPs, Plague Marines, Berserkers, etc. And our versatility makes us resilient. We are almost aspect warriors with 3+ saves and great stats.

But.

Are they representative of the armies you are playing?

If I play Slaanesh, I . . . If I want to play Emperor's Children. . .

If I want to use the codex as written and ignore all the fluff for 20+ years, sure then the current codex isn't bad.

 

Again, no one said that the current codex is poor for Black Legion, or a strength power comparison.

I quote Jeske from Jul 4th 2007:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...t&p=1296850

 

No one is saying that teh chaos dex is underpowerd or weak . It's the most powerful codex of all the new ones [bA/DA/ORCS] . But as you may notice there are two parts of chaos forum . The cult one and the undivided one . If you have nothing against useing units with icons , then everything is good . Some options[raptors for example] are powerful with or without icons . But there is a problem for undivided players .

 

I agree 100% and have for better then a year with that statement. (though the last line should read: But there is a problem for non-undivided players).

No one argues that you can't make a cheesey or powerful army. Just you can't do it with style (as defined by refuse), or legion/cult fluff. Icons are poor representations of marks, and or the newer (2nd edition) style of choosing a character that gives benefits to your whole army. Previously you limited your choices to get the benefit, but that was to difficult for people, so now you buy the character to get it.

[Xenocidal Maniac]

But.

Are they representative of the armies you are playing?

If I play Slaanesh, I . . . If I want to play Emperor's Children. . .

If I want to use the codex as written and ignore all the fluff for 20+ years, sure then the current codex isn't bad.

 

Again, no one said that the current codex is poor for Black Legion, or a strength power comparison.

I quote Jeske from Jul 4th 2007:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...t&p=1296850

 

No one is saying that teh chaos dex is underpowerd or weak . It's the most powerful codex of all the new ones [bA/DA/ORCS] . But as you may notice there are two parts of chaos forum . The cult one and the undivided one . If you have nothing against useing units with icons , then everything is good . Some options[raptors for example] are powerful with or without icons . But there is a problem for undivided players .

 

I agree 100% and have for better then a year with that statement. (though the last line should read: But there is a problem for non-undivided players).

No one argues that you can't make a cheesey or powerful army. Just you can't do it with style (as defined by refuse), or legion/cult fluff. Icons are poor representations of marks, and or the newer (2nd edition) style of choosing a character that gives benefits to your whole army. Previously you limited your choices to get the benefit, but that was to difficult for people, so now you buy the character to get it.

 

My man. I am not going to get into this with you. I fail to see why you can't take Noise Marines as your troops choices and a Slaaneshi lord as your HQ. But this is a dead horse that has been beaten a billion times and I am not going to support your hijacking of this thread. Please stay on topic. I am tired of you new dex haters using every single thread as an opportunity to tell us all how unhappy you are. We get it already. We really really do.

 

Good day to you, sir.

 

Anyone got any more info on that new Ironclad dread? I haven't seen any mention of it on this thread. That thing looks wicked! Hope we get one someday.

[Ian Hockert]

I definitely agree that a lot of the flavor was taken out of the Chaos Codex in its most recent incarnation but it is still a very formidable codex from a pure power standpoint and my bet is that the new Marine codex is just going to be gimmicky.

 

Sternguard are non-scoring elites with gimmicky bullets. From everything I've read about them I think my noise marines are still superior. 5 man Command squads will now have FNP, we get troop choices with FNP. 3++ saves from storm shields are not going to be the end of the world. My Lord of Change with a 3++ save has been killed on several occasions. Then of course is the blessing and curse of combat squads. If you keep em as one element you will probably waste a certain degree of their capability and if you split them you can be run over by every CC element in the game. A Sgt with powerfist in a 5 man squad is just an expensive corpse because my zerkers will probably drop him before he gets to swing. My Daemon army can't wait for whole squads of storm shield termies to show up and get eaten by my Bloodletters or disintegrated by large numbers of flamers. Most of these units people are raving about are just gimmicks that will probably do them more harm than good.

 

My annoyance with the new SM dex rumors are the options and the special characters. Most of the Chaos characters are garbage. They are over-costed and under-effective. Which is not necessarily a bad thing in most cases as it means few will show up until apocalypse games. However, the marine characters with their army changing abilities encourage people to bring these important heroes to every single minor skirmish in the galaxy. Not to mention most of them seem to be pretty tough characters. But its the whole options thing which is most annoying because Chaos players, by and large, want the ability to make characterful armies even if they are not the most effective ones.

 

I don't mind if the current Chaos Codex was more of a Codex: Renegades, but I would have liked it to reflect that more accurately if it were true. Some SM players often like to say that Chaos ICs should not be much better than SM ones because they aren't necessarily the 10,000 year old veterans of the Heresy and might be more recent converts. However, they never seem to want us to have the advantages we should have if we were recent renegades such as assault cannons, attack bikes, LRCs, etc.

 

I apologize for the rant, and while I don't think the new SM changes are going to make them as powerful as some people think, it is annoying to see loyalists get all sorts of cool new upgrade and unit options while Chaos lost most of that stuff in their last Dex.

[Captain Idaho]

dont get me wrong refuse, i hate this new Codex Chaos Space Marines. its entirely lacking in character and, although poowerful in certain combos (like you have pointed our) it doesnt reward innovation.

 

to be honest, 40k has been like that alot recently.

 

i know you dont think that Chaos is under gunned (i was actually directing that post at anyone else who may jump on that particular band wagon).

 

in summary (as im very very drunk right now!), i would like to clarify to everyone and anyone who may be confused, the latest Chaos Marines Codex is another GW blip. its a book that has come inbetween boom times. it has suffered because its popular, in that GW brought it out as a test bed for the most popular army of Space Marines and 5th edition.

 

its a crying shame that armies have no heart and soul from this new codex, but i really dont think anyone should bemoan any other Codex because theirs was done a dis-service.

[Jarulek]

in summary (as im very very drunk right now!), i would like to clarify to everyone and anyone who may be confused, the latest Chaos Marines Codex is another GW blip. its a book that has come inbetween boom times. it has suffered because its popular, in that GW brought it out as a test bed for the most popular army of Space Marines and 5th edition.

 

Don't need to drown your sorrows because of the new codex, it ain't worth it :blush:

[chillin]

I don't drown my sorrows. I do, on occasion, take my happiness for a swim. :)

[Jarulek]

I don't drown my sorrows. I do, on occasion, take my happiness for a swim. :)

 

Just kidding man ;) Pissed as I am about the new codex, you saying that made me chuckle :)

[Joasht]

Maybe one day we will be the one getting the the almighty great dex for once.

 

Chaos did.

 

3rd Ed's 2nd Chaos codex.

[Ju'kosian]

I wonder if the new space marine codex will change things for us ?

Dreads are rumoured to be WS5 BS5

landraiders have 12 men transport capability ??

[Jarulek]

You know, I haven't hear anyone complain about the models yet. Personally, I don't much care for the SM codex, but I'm pretty pissed at all the new models they get.

 

What did we get from the new codex? Plastic Terminators and Termi Lord , very awesome and a great idea from GW, but with only 6 head bits and limited weapon options. Okay, possessed with their weird disco-poses. Again, not much different combo's possible, since the legs match a certain chest and back etc. The Vindicator, which it basically the SM one with the Chaos Vehicles sprue with it. And a plastic chaos spawn, which has the most different modelling combos of the four. But these new models are made obsolete because of the crap dex (possessed and spawn). The daemons were ripped from the codex and made generic, which makes the new daemon models useless.

 

Now, what do the SM players get besides an awesome codex? First off, they are in the new starter set which includes an awesome captain model and marines in mk.IV armor. I know it's part of the ne rulebook and all but still.

Okay, what models do they get:

-even more veterans! even though the SM had 10 different awesome veteran models already they get even more.

-A new artillery piece

-a droppod

-scout bikes

-a new land speeder

-new commander

-new Independent Characters

 

That's all I can come up with now, but I know for sure it's not the nearly all of them. Why don't we get some IC's for our undivided legions? Or a dreadclaw assault pod? Some Chosen models. New power armoured sorcerers? Why were the Iron Warrior and Night Lords boxes discontinued?

 

I hate you GW...You have turned your backs on the vets and loyal chaos followers and sold out to power gamers and 11-year olds with rich parents.

[Forward Operative]

There is a simple solution to all of this. Don't play. GW will notice no one is buying their Chaos line, and will do something to fix it. I have a Tau army and an Alpha Legion army and I am considering selling them both. I still love my Alpha Legion, but with the ways things are currently, any force I build will not be a true Alpha Legion force. I bought the 5e Rulebook, and I lvoe the rules changes, but just as the other undivided Legions are upset about the loss of their abilities, so am I as an Alpha Legion player.

 

Gav Thorpe actually talked about the Legions on Warseer, and how he felt GW should do individual books similar to how they do Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, etc. I for one am holding out until I see that Chaos:Legions book that gives me something unique for being an Alpha Legion player.

 

Here is the post by Gav Thorpe I am refering to:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p...543#post2836543

[Xenocidal Maniac]

You know, I haven't hear anyone complain about the models yet. Personally, I don't much care for the SM codex, but I'm pretty pissed at all the new models they get.

 

What did we get from the new codex? Plastic Terminators and Termi Lord , very awesome and a great idea from GW, but with only 6 head bits and limited weapon options. Okay, possessed with their weird disco-poses. Again, not much different combo's possible, since the legs match a certain chest and back etc. The Vindicator, which it basically the SM one with the Chaos Vehicles sprue with it. And a plastic chaos spawn, which has the most different modelling combos of the four. But these new models are made obsolete because of the crap dex (possessed and spawn). The daemons were ripped from the codex and made generic, which makes the new daemon models useless.

 

Now, what do the SM players get besides an awesome codex? First off, they are in the new starter set which includes an awesome captain model and marines in mk.IV armor. I know it's part of the ne rulebook and all but still.

Okay, what models do they get:

-even more veterans! even though the SM had 10 different awesome veteran models already they get even more.

-A new artillery piece

-a droppod

-scout bikes

-a new land speeder

-new commander

-new Independent Characters

 

That's all I can come up with now, but I know for sure it's not the nearly all of them. Why don't we get some IC's for our undivided legions? Or a dreadclaw assault pod? Some Chosen models. New power armoured sorcerers? Why were the Iron Warrior and Night Lords boxes discontinued?

 

I hate you GW...You have turned your backs on the vets and loyal chaos followers and sold out to power gamers and 11-year olds with rich parents.

 

Oh. My. God.

 

Can this really be happening? Is this a real post? Or are you just screwing around?

 

You start by listing all of the awesome new plastics that Chaos got. And then you basically say "that's not good enough!" And then you mention something about 11 year olds when your post sounds like it was written by one.

 

All you Chaos dex haters: try explaining to your friends and / or relatives the depths of your hatred towards a TOY SOLDIER company for making your TOY SOLDIERS in a way that you don't like. See what they think. I think they would recommend you get some help.

 

So anyway, back on topic. You guys see the cool new stuff the marines are getting? It is pretty nice. I think it will actually make the loyalists competetive again. I was beginning to get tired of kicking ultra-smurf ass all over the place. I don't think I've lost to loyalists once since our new dex came out.

 

I do agree that GW seems to be flip-flopping on its codex policies - first they went for ultra-streamlined with DA, BA, and Chaos, and now it seems they are going back to lots of options. But I think it will even out in the end and we will have a happy medium. You have to admit that all the rampant customization of the 3rd ed dexes was a total joke.

[Jarulek]

I was planning on spending like an A4 trying to justify my opinion but I decided to leave it as it is.

 

I am no "dex-hater" though, I'm in it for the hobby. If a new codex comes out I'm watching out for the great models that come with them, and the chaos models were from my point of view a major letdown. And when I saw the awesome models the SM get it got me frustrated. I spend a lot of money for those models, and that's perhaps my mistake.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Folks can we please settle down. This is a fourm for people to share the same intrest that we have & our great hobby that is Warhammer 40k.

 

Xenocidal Maniac: Everone has there own views, but I would be happy if you could stop picking on other memeber who may not be fans with the current codex chaos. If your have a problem with a post just simple ignore it as it not going to do anyone any good to have a argument. If you do not like this topic, then please leave it allow for other there many other topics that you may enjoy reading.

 

Also in general (to everone) if you have a problem with a post ignore it or if it flaming/trolling please report it.

 

IP

[Roultox]

Ok I hate to add to the rant, but I have a funny outlook I thought I would share. Bear with me.

 

Put two marine noobs together and let them brag about their codexes. Say, they played for a while, and just started collecting marine armies.

 

One is a Chaos collector, the other is the new Space Marine collector. (Yet to be seen) lets give them forums to bark and complain on. If both of them brag to death of everything in their codex and argue consistantly for 2 months, here's what happens. GW sends a seeder, or a spy to check and read up the forums, the fella figures what codex has the most bragging potential needs a rules change, or everything else needs a boost to "match it".

 

Here's the reality of things. The game would be similar to what it is now, if those two braggers and the chain of events happened 5 years ago. Coincidence? I hope it is.

 

Black Legion - Iron Warriors - Death Guard - World Eaters are now... Bits and pieces, converting material for making whatever army GW thinks I should use. Like hell I will buy a single new model for my chaos, and let their changes get the best of me. (I make Tzeentch proud on this, and Nurgle for the rotting models in the bits box)

 

I can question GW on all these things but I realize its a buisness. If I cant change with the game I should abandon it entirely. I could reap vengeance and model up from all my bits my version of the cheesiest SM force, but I wont punish other gamers for my resentment against GW for their neglect of my needs in the game.

 

So, this game is just a passtime when I'm bored rather then something to look forward to every other weekend. I would rather draw on paper then paint a model, and I suck at drawing. The game is just a fluff idea base for me to write short stories when I get the itch.

 

So, from owning 4 proud chaos armies that saw action (every model) at least once a month to now being a pile of rubble that witnesses the light of day once a year at most. Playing custom marine forces anyone can deny on the basis they dont look like normal marines from GW (even though 2 models were chopped up to make one and cost more then theirs with 2 hours put into each model).

 

Games workshop really punish people who go outside the loop and dont give them their 4 year salary of 500 to 1000 dollars a person.

 

Edit-

Reasons I dont get to play new players for the 4 year salary.

-Buy new updated models, even if the players only paint 2 colors on their armies, they wont face older looking forces, they make excuses to not play you.

-My army is custom to its own fluff and creativity, but they dont look like marines but use marine rules and are made from marine+skeleton bits. They can refuse legally because the model is a cross between two different models, and the base rule in the rulebook says if the opponent sees your model with different base then what they come with, he can argue it and say no to them. Skeletons come with square bases....

-Some people dont like highly made armies, makes them feel insecure about their quality and time, so they could just refuse to play you on the base that your army looks too good or has a higher standard that makes them feel inferior. (Not my intent! I could care less if they spent 6 minutes on each model with gluing and base coat)

[refuse]

There is a simple solution to all of this. Don't play. GW will notice no one is buying their Chaos line, and will do something to fix it. I have a Tau army and an Alpha Legion army and I am considering selling them both. I still love my Alpha Legion, but with the ways things are currently, any force I build will not be a true Alpha Legion force. I bought the 5e Rulebook, and I lvoe the rules changes, but just as the other undivided Legions are upset about the loss of their abilities, so am I as an Alpha Legion player.

 

Gav Thorpe actually talked about the Legions on Warseer, and how he felt GW should do individual books similar to how they do Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, etc. I for one am holding out until I see that Chaos:Legions book that gives me something unique for being an Alpha Legion player.

 

Here is the post by Gav Thorpe I am refering to:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p...543#post2836543

 

He really didn't talk about legions. He talked about how the perfect chaos codex would be the current book and variant books like the loyalists get.

 

This is in reference to which version of the Chaos Codex is best. And many people picked 3.5. He first says the extra pages are "free". Strange. I guess we pay for the pamphlet, and . . .

 

 

 

I think it is important for this discussion that folks consider the Codex books on their own, and not the pages and pages of Index Astartes articles that expanded the '3.5' edition of the Codex - getting 40+ extra pages for 'free' is cheating

 

GAV

 

PS Given an ideal world, my answer would be the latest book (of course..) with the addition of four or five variant CSM books like the loyalists get for their weirdos. Time will tell if this ever comes to fruition.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I'm not bothered at all by the models. I can't blame GW for meeting demand with supply when it comes to the models, just for stacking what should be a balanced game rules wise. Also the ones we got are currently some of the nicest models in the game imo. The plastic terminators and terminator lords make the loyalist termies look like poo, and the possessed and spawn are amazing for conversions and the like.

[Joah from Alberta]

I find it ironic that there's a statline for LatD in the rumoured SM codex. What does it mean?

[DuskRaider]

I'm perfectly fine with the new models. The possessed are great pieces, EVERYONE wants the winged pack. The plastic Chaos Terminators are something people have been whining about for years and we finally got them, the price is ridiculous but it's WAY better then those crappy metal models. And Forge World makes great upgrade kits for the existing pieces. I know some people whine and cry about those too, but I'm willing to spend the money to have an army that I enjoy. The models are great.

I'm not all that happy about the new codex, but I'm not going to cry like a baby and throw all my models out just because I'm not 100% satisfied. They'll either give us something better or they won't, whatever. Like I said, I still have a Daemon army that's just as customizable and competitive as the new SM codex, if push comes to shove I'll just play that.

[Seahawk]

I find it ironic that there's a statline for LatD in the rumoured SM codex. What does it mean?

 

You have it wrong.

 

LatD = Lost and the Damned

LotD = Legion of the Damned

 

Two totally seperate things. The former are an unplayable army now, and the latter are loyalist ghost marines. I loves me some ghost marines :cuss . They're rumored to be the Fire Hawks chapter that was lost in the warp millenia ago. Now they come when the servants of the Emperor are in great peril. Normally a very rare thing. Of course, now they'll appear all the time in every SM army. So long, fluff...