Space Marine MauntyHall.

[Joah from Alberta]

Here's more Monty: http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2008/0...n-and-more.html

[Brother Drakist]

Refuse,

Great points, but I still think we should all take a wait and see attitude. I will continue to paint/play my Salamanders, but I am starting the Khorne army for two reasons. First I want to try a CC focused army, and second I am looking forward to painting the followers of Khorne.

 

Also, I will say that I truly believe that we will see a Chaos Legions specific codex in the not too distant future. Then all of the SM will be saying the same thing many of the people here have said. Just my opinion though.

[Seahawk]

Could be that they're using the new SM codex as a test run for a Chaos Legions book, where the character makes the army kinda thing. In which case, ours should turn out the better, eh? Always look at the bright side.

 

And once again I'll have to shoot down bp/ccw/bolter for SM. No rumors ever said it, other than those who wanted it and asked about it. That's how silly rumors spread.

[chillin]

And once again I'll have to shoot down bp/ccw/bolter for SM. No rumors ever said it, other than those who wanted it and asked about it. That's how silly rumors spread.

-

OK my bad, I just knew I read something about it as I was wading the the PAGES of new s/m dex rumors. Is it a battle banner or company banner that gives +1 attaack maybe ??

-

I would LOVE to think there is a MUCH improved chaos dex on the way, but I don't seen it with in the next 2 years at least, and I might have grow tired with the game again by then.

[refuse]

Refuse,

Great points, but I still think we should all take a wait and see attitude. I will continue to paint/play my Salamanders, but I am starting the Khorne army for two reasons. First I want to try a CC focused army, and second I am looking forward to painting the followers of Khorne.

 

Also, I will say that I truly believe that we will see a Chaos Legions specific codex in the not too distant future. Then all of the SM will be saying the same thing many of the people here have said. Just my opinion though.

 

 

Could be that they're using the new SM codex as a test run for a Chaos Legions book, where the character makes the army kinda thing. In which case, ours should turn out the better, eh? Always look at the bright side.

 

And once again I'll have to shoot down bp/ccw/bolter for SM. No rumors ever said it, other than those who wanted it and asked about it. That's how silly rumors spread.

 

I wouldn't bet on Legions. It was a "stop gap" to try to keep people happy. They have released their 5 year plan, and Legions and =][= are not in the plans. They are always side quotes from interviews. GW has never officially stated that it was in their plan. Only that if they do legions (which they have done in the past) they will do them right. The logic doesn't hold, because if they were doing Chaos, they would do it right.

 

Legions is a carrot to string people along.

Chaos was a gap filler, and poor at that.

 

SM and the character doing thing, this was 2nd edition. And the Orks already did it.

Ours was just new, so it should have been better then DA, BA, or Eldar by the logic it came out after them. It isn't.

 

 

It is silly to think that GW will admit, or Fix the abomination of Chaos. Heck how long to do a FAQ?

 

Use RAW, our product (C:CSM) is what it is, and by RAW, read it as written, you can see GW's intent and attitude towards Chaos. It isn't worth investing any time in it.

[Joah from Alberta]

I love chaos. It's gonna be hard to not be jealous or feel jaded with the stuff that is published online concerning the New Space Marines.

[Joah from Alberta]

Is it possible to accept this new SM dex for the glory that it may hold for a few players? Yeah it's not fair that our dex belongs in the crapper at the local penitentiary. Heck, I said it before that half the inmates could have drawn better art. But so what?? I myself have always adored chaos. I have studied the chaos theory within the science community all of my life, and being a student of chaos I have a greater understanding of law. It's like solving an equation backwards I suppose.

 

I don't want to feel bitter about this new codex. Yes it's overpowered. Yes it's glorified. Yes it's going to be a challenge to overcome. I want to look at the bright side of my game. I refuse to feel embittered.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I don't want to feel bitter about this new codex. Yes it's overpowered. Yes it's glorified. Yes it's going to be a challenge to overcome. I want to look at the bright side of my game. I refuse to feel embittered.

 

I had the same attitude until i read the bit about Papa SMurf being the Abbadon of loyalists. Because a few hundred year old chapter master with some fancy gloves is the equal of a 10,000 year old warmaster of chaos with 2 legendary weapons and the favor of all the gods of chaos who has killed uncountable numbers of enemies and is strong enough to hold together the fractured chaos legions well enough to have launched 13 black crusades, each of which was a bigger achievement than anything Calgar has done, or will probably ever do. Abbadon is one of the few special marine characters who is immune to instant death (arguably the most useful special rule for a special char to have) and has it because he's the warmaster of Chaos and has combined the marks of every god. Calgar doesn't even have an explained reason for having it. Maybe his cloak is as powerful as pacts with every chaos god or something? Whats next, a character with an ear piercing that does the same thing as the black staff of ahriman?

 

This new codex isn't just overpowered and glorified. Its also completely butchering the fluff which is worse than the other two combined.

 

Don't get me wrong, i'm not throwing a fit or anything, i just want to be clear on exactly how stupid this is. When all is said and done i'll still be playing chaos, and i'll probably still be able to beat sm.

[Smurfalypse]

Im pretty much in the same boat and feeling as Refuse and Chillen. That being said however, i do not care how overpowered, broken, on top of the world they are, the fact of the matter is im sure i will still compete in most of my matches through sheer hatred, their new codex fueling a good amount of my in game contempt ;)

 

What really spurns me is the sheer amount of options orks and space marines have. Give me 1000 crappy options and i would be much more satisfied then a 3 good options. I and possibly most chaos players just want the options to be able to build our fluffy lists and have a decent chance to compete. This isnt a rant, just a simple QQ moment of weakness:P

 

I will still stomp any SM who puts his/her crappily painted broken army on the table in front of me, ive been doing it to eldar for years and nothing is going to change. My hate levels may rise a bit but other than that the outcome of any match will be the same. :P

[Captain Idaho]

personally i feel that the lack of soul (pun not intended!) in the Chaos Space Marine Codex was a serious problem that GW have over come with their latest releases. Orks, Daemons and now Space Marines are going to be the format for 5th edition, while the Chaos Space Marine Codex will almost certainly be revised. i am even confident that it will be sooner than they originally planned, just like the 3rd edition Codex fiasco.

 

as for the power levels of this new Codex? unless the points are very under priced (i hear the price of a Tactical marine is going up to 16pts each, so the free weapons are not really free at all, while if i want other weapons im paying through the nose!) then its not going to be that bad at all. has everyone forgotten that to win a game in 5th edition, you need troops choices? since they are going up in price/mandatory weapons and the fact all these amazing things are going to cost points and be non-scoring units.

 

sure the Chaos boys dont have the soul of the Space Marine Codex, but they are still competetive with their multitude of elite Troops choices. if you want to complain that the Codex is heartless and boring, then thats fine, but lets not complain that your are under gunned just yet eh?

[Smurfalypse]

personally i feel that the lack of soul (pun not intended!) in the Chaos Space Marine Codex was a serious problem that GW have over come with their latest releases. Orks, Daemons and now Space Marines are going to be the format for 5th edition, while the Chaos Space Marine Codex will almost certainly be revised. i am even confident that it will be sooner than they originally planned, just like the 3rd edition Codex fiasco.

 

as for the power levels of this new Codex? unless the points are very under priced (i hear the price of a Tactical marine is going up to 16pts each, so the free weapons are not really free at all, while if i want other weapons im paying through the nose!) then its not going to be that bad at all. has everyone forgotten that to win a game in 5th edition, you need troops choices? since they are going up in price/mandatory weapons and the fact all these amazing things are going to cost points and be non-scoring units.

 

sure the Chaos boys dont have the soul of the Space Marine Codex, but they are still competetive with their multitude of elite Troops choices. if you want to complain that the Codex is heartless and boring, then thats fine, but lets not complain that your are under gunned just yet eh?

 

Very very well put.

[Deneris]

I love chaos. It's gonna be hard to not be jealous or feel jaded with the stuff that is published online concerning the New Space Marines.

 

Aye brother. Perhaps GW wanted us to feel what our CSMs have been feeling for the last ten thousand years? The hate and pain of seeing a once powerful empire devolved into corpse-worshipping and pointless ritual...

 

In any case, it will be my dearest pleasure to continue killing these upstart Marines-come-lately whether they're using 4th or 5th edition rules- they bleed the same and SHOULD still die (Despite rumors to the contrary) from massed bolter fire... Especially RUBRIC bolter fire...

[Xenocidal Maniac]

Refuse, you are basically calling everyone who happens to like the new Chaos codex, such as myself, an idiot. It isn't appreciated, especially from a moderator who is supposed to create a friendly and neutral environment for discussion. And I for one am really tired of hearing all the Chaos dex hate. I don't think there is a single complaint you could add to the discussion that everyone hasn't heard 1,000,000 times.

 

In any case, I don't think we need to worry much about the new marines. In fact, in their current incarnation, I think us Chaos players beat the pants off them. We have access to 5 different kinds of troop choices, have 2 CC attacks base, rarely fail leadership checks, especially with the IoCG. The new dex will bring them up to the standard of all the other armies out there... until the next dex, that is! :)

[Drudge Dreadnought]

In any case, I don't think we need to worry much about the new marines. In fact, in their current incarnation, I think us Chaos players beat the pants off them. We have access to 5 different kinds of troop choices, have 2 CC attacks base, rarely fail leadership checks, especially with the IoCG. The new dex will bring them up to the standard of all the other armies out there... until the next dex, that is!

 

I hate to say it, but they will also have 2 cc attacks base. They will fail moral checks a tiny bit more than us but cannot be sweeping advanced and can always regroup. We can be swept, can't always regroup, and we have to pay 10pts for our reroll, which also excludes the other icons that actually help us win fights.

[Maddog176]

Ok how are they getting this basic guy 2 cc attacks they will have a bolter and bolt pistol thats all no extra ccw. I am pretty sure they can only choose to fail leadership tests not pass them too. I play both Chaos and Loyal marines, and am looking forward to the new codex because it looks like they will be behaving more like marines in the fluff which is great for marines. Don't look at it as a stab at chaos and yes they may of made a mistake with the current chaos codex, i don't mind it myself to be honest (please don't hurt me), But as hope that they will get Chaos Space Marines done properly so the the Majority of the players like it. Not sure where the saying comes from but remember you can only keep half of the population happy half of the time.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

In any case, I don't think we need to worry much about the new marines. In fact, in their current incarnation, I think us Chaos players beat the pants off them. We have access to 5 different kinds of troop choices, have 2 CC attacks base, rarely fail leadership checks, especially with the IoCG. The new dex will bring them up to the standard of all the other armies out there... until the next dex, that is!

 

I hate to say it, but they will also have 2 cc attacks base. They will fail moral checks a tiny bit more than us but cannot be sweeping advanced and can always regroup. We can be swept, can't always regroup, and we have to pay 10pts for our reroll, which also excludes the other icons that actually help us win fights.

 

It has been said a bunch of times in the various threads on the rumors board that they will have bolter, bolt pistol and cc weapon. I'm just basing my info on what is said there. If they don't, then yay. But i see no reason they won't as dark angels and blood angels have them.

[flintlocklaser]

It has been said a bunch of times in the various threads on the rumors board that they will have bolter, bolt pistol and cc weapon. I'm just basing my info on what is said there. If they don't, then yay. But i see no reason they won't as dark angels and blood angels have them.

 

The new marine codex may or may not grant bolter, bp and ccw - but the DA and BA don't actually have those. They come with bolter and bp.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

It has been said a bunch of times in the various threads on the rumors board that they will have bolter, bolt pistol and cc weapon. I'm just basing my info on what is said there. If they don't, then yay. But i see no reason they won't as dark angels and blood angels have them.

 

The new marine codex may or may not grant bolter, bp and ccw - but the DA and BA don't actually have those. They come with bolter and bp.

 

Are you absolutely sure about that? If its true then the angel players i've been playing have been cheating :confused:

[DuskRaider]

Well... Yes, I'm a bit upset that the new Space Marines Codex is leaps and bounds above the Chaos Codex. No, I'm not going to stop playing Chaos, I'll respond and adapt. That being said, at least we still have the Chaos Daemons, and I'm sure they'll still stand a good chance against these pretty boy lapdogs.

[flintlocklaser]

Are you absolutely sure about that? If its true then the angel players i've been playing have been cheating ;)

 

Yep. Just looked it up in my DA codex. You can look up the BA one yourself if you want, it's free online here. Tacticals get bp and bolter, no ccw.

[Loketh]

That's it, I'm playing my IW with Loyalist rules. CONVERSION BEAMERS AND THUNDERFIRE CANNONS ALL THE WAY BABY!!!

[deadfuse]

That's it, I'm playing my IW with Loyalist rules. CONVERSION BEAMERS AND THUNDERFIRE CANNONS ALL THE WAY BABY!!!

That's what I like about having a Renegade chapter. It allows me ultimate flexibility. I can go all crazy with Chaos, fielding cult troops and daemonic beasts galore, or I can utilize the Space Marine rules if I feel like it. I just add a few spikes and skulls to whatever Imperial models I buy, and I'm good to go. ;)

[Rain]

The biggest problem isn't that this codex is "overpowered" or that marines now have "too many options" it's that (as people have already mentioned) this codex will actually represent undivided chaos better than the chaos codex. I mean somewhere I heard that the Iron Warriors are supposed to field artillery, and funny thing, there is no artillery of any sort in the chaos codex, and yet apparently there are several kinds available for vanilla marines (especially if you count the supposed orbital bombardment ability). Oh and they still get tech marines, and a tank driver character, and improved ammunition for vets. What does chaos get to represent IW? Defilers and demon princes; whoopdy doo, honestly I don't find either of those as iconic as things like servo arms and big guns.

[refuse]

Refuse, you are basically calling everyone who happens to like the new Chaos codex, such as myself, an idiot.

Well.

1) I don't call anyone that likes the new chaos codex an idiot.

I challenge you to show me where I even implied it. Heck, where do I even talk about pro-codex people here? I think you are just trolling to get some response. But:

 

I point out many times that if you like it fine. But. If you play any army based on fluff (outside of the BL or renegades), you are forced down many roads. "Count as", "Fluff can be followed by writing your own fluff", "Just wait and see".

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...5&start=925

 

It isn't appreciated, especially from a moderator who is supposed to create a friendly and neutral environment for discussion.

I think reading is fundamental.

If you took a minute and looked at my sig, or my title it is: MODERATI CEDO. Heck my Sig says: Refuse is a MODERATI CEDO.

Right? Hmm.

I quit being a moderator of the Chaos forums because of this abomination of a codex, along with a few other reasons. But this codex isn't worth the creative effort to support it in my opinion. I much rather focus on the fluff at the Emperors Children.net. Focus on the Lord Commander's Database and other things that GW can't mess up because as they admit, they flubbed up.

So before you play the "moderator card", please, make sure you read the forum rules (MODERATI CEDO is defined there) and you have your information correct.

But because I was a moderator, and I had to deal with the same discussions 1,000,000 times in the past (especially people that didn't read the rules), I will link you to the appropriate section of the rules:

Definition of User Groups in the B&C Rules

 

And I for one am really tired of hearing all the Chaos dex hate. I don't think there is a single complaint you could add to the discussion that everyone hasn't heard 1,000,000 times.

I am tired of hearing pro-codex. Pro-Count as, pro-just get along.

I am tired of reading "what music goes with what army", or "how does this work or how does that work."

I am tired of all the normal questions and statements that people ask when they first learn something. I mean, who hasn't heard a 1,000,000 times of what about the "erased legions" or. . . .

 

A quick hint.

If you don't like it. Don't read it.

Same as the wait and see people.

 

In any case, I don't think we need to worry much about the new marines. In fact, in their current incarnation, I think us Chaos players beat the pants off them. We have access to 5 different kinds of troop choices, have 2 CC attacks base, rarely fail leadership checks, especially with the IoCG. The new dex will bring them up to the standard of all the other armies out there... until the next dex, that is! :devil:

And I dislike it as there is no fluff, no Rules for Emperor's Children.

And best of all. We get Icons.

And the marines?

Best of all though! We don't have a codex, we have a pamphlet. The only army with a smaller codex is BA, and they are a single chapter. Ours represents Renegades, legions, warbands and more, and our codex, well, the DA (a single chapter) is about the same size.

 

Also, the biggest news I have for you today is that Chapter Tactics apply to the army whether or not the character granting them is alive at the time or not. Basically, if for example, Shrike is in your army list for any given game of 40k, the entire army gets fleet for the rest of the game, even if Shrike gets killed. This is to represent the character's personal army, I guess.

They could have done this with Chaos as mentioned in the flogging thread, and others back at that time.

If they are going to characters define your army, then it would have been simple to do that for C:CSM.

 

So if Marines and Orks are 5th edition codecies, along with Daemons. The arguments that the C:CSM was a 5th edition codex is out the window too.

 

Hmm.

[refuse]

personally i feel that the lack of soul (pun not intended!) in the Chaos Space Marine Codex was a serious problem that GW have over come with their latest releases. Orks, Daemons and now Space Marines are going to be the format for 5th edition, while the Chaos Space Marine Codex will almost certainly be revised. i am even confident that it will be sooner than they originally planned, just like the 3rd edition Codex fiasco.

 

as for the power levels of this new Codex? unless the points are very under priced (i hear the price of a Tactical marine is going up to 16pts each, so the free weapons are not really free at all, while if i want other weapons im paying through the nose!) then its not going to be that bad at all. has everyone forgotten that to win a game in 5th edition, you need troops choices? since they are going up in price/mandatory weapons and the fact all these amazing things are going to cost points and be non-scoring units.

 

sure the Chaos boys dont have the soul of the Space Marine Codex, but they are still competetive with their multitude of elite Troops choices. if you want to complain that the Codex is heartless and boring, then thats fine, but lets not complain that your are under gunned just yet eh?

I don't think Chaos is undergunned.

Nor that this codex isn't a bad basis for a chaos codex. I think there are still one or two really good combos in the Chaos codex. Probably a few will be uncovered in 5th edition.

I do think all the justifications for the reduction of complexity, the reduction of troop types, the removal of special rules for Chaos are now laughable in the face of the new Marine codex.

As pointed out in the Flogging thread, even orks went more to 2nd then Chaos. Heck Daemons are more Chaos then Chaos.

 

But remember.

SM will cost 16 pts. But when you get 10, you get free upgrades (not really free as you paid the points for them per marine).

But C:CSM pay 21 pts, and then for upgrades (nothing like the cost of the Blastmaster to really remember you what "fair pricing is").

So marines will be forced to (not really forced, but encouraged) to pick 10 man squads. <10 means they paid alot per marine.

Now if the implication is that for the 10 men (90 pts for the first 5, and then 80 pts for the next 5) that is 170 pts. If that includes a SGT and a heavy weapon, we can see that all the heavy weapons/special weapons cost about 14-15 pts (assuming that it use to be 150 pts for marines, + upgrade to SGT (I am only adding 5-6 pts for the sgt)).

 

So I don't think they are paying extra for the Heavy weapons, they are just requiring the purchase, and encouraging big squads by pre-paying. What will be interesting is if they pay 170 for the squad with heavy weapons and a SGT. Then the SGT upgrade and the heavy weapon costs +20 over the previous version. And, well, Not that much really.

Not when you think what we pay for our troops, and heavy weapons of the same size.

 

 

I do think that Chaos though is very one sided now.

You must want to assault (the +1 CC).

Slaanesh as pointed out in many threads is mid-range shooting. So like marines, a cost is implied in the structure of the C:CSM for the benefits (+1 attack), so I must want to assault if I play Chaos. Otherwise I waste points. Hey it was there before (+1 I for slaanesh), but prior to that, Slaanesh was about being immune to psychology, and other ld effects. Now, all chaos must want to assault.

If I pay the big points for a Blast Master. I must want to assault. :)

 

 

You can build some killer lists. To me, you can't build Cult (Slanesh only) nor Emperor's Children lists. Icon's don't count as being dedicated to Slaanesh when they are removed, you are just a C:CSM again. Add in the requirements to be 10 men strong (Chaos follows the codex) to take weapons in regular C:CSM squads. . . I just don't feel that I am playing Chaos. It could be a decent codex besides that, but I am an Emperor's Children player, and this is the worse codex for doing that in 20+ years to me.