Turn Coat .... er.. Robe :)

[ForeverHero]

So I have been playing Dark Angels for roughly that last 10 years and I feel the need for a change. My primary army is DA as I have over 10k in models which includes a Death Wing and Raven Wing sections. I also have a good sized 'Nids army that I use for demo games and mega battles that have too many Imperials players. However, I have become bored lately with painting/expanding my DA list and I feel the need for a change. Many years ago, a close friend that got me started in this game/hobby and he played Space Wolves; i chose DA just to be different and I liked the green color scheme :)

Now I feel the need to create a third army, something that plays a little different that my Dark Angels but it has to be marines. Like many of players of this game, I have collect a ton of space marine box sets over the years so a new marine army was the obvious choice; not to mention the cheaper option as well. I currently plan on building a company that'll use Logan Grimnar as my leader and because of the new 5th ed. rules three 10-man TAC squads as a base for my army. Please understand that I currently do not have a copy of the codex as none of the stores here can get it. My question on the TAC squad or Grey Hunters, as I believe they are called, can they take a Heavy Weapon such as a PC or HB? and if so what would you recommend?

I would also like to say that I would appreciate comments about developing a basic 1850 to 2000 list in preparation of the new Codex coming out. You see this is a secret project of mine as I help run the league at my LHS and all of the kids and players there know that I am a dedicated DA player. So this secret project will help me to break that mold and shake things up a bit for everyone.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

FH

[hendrik]

no we can't take heavy weapons

email the canadian GW,and ask them for a copy of the codex

they'll email it to you

about the lists,is there any direction you want to go?

mechanized?droppodding?take a look at our FAQ and do a little searchy on the armylists compartment,it should give you a good start

[ForeverHero]

So from what I have been reading, the Grey Hunters can take assault weapons like MG and PG but no heavy weapons. They can also take PF or PW for better CC fighting. Therefore, I'll need to take a couple of Long Fang squads to make up for the loss of heavy firepower. Do Long Fangs still get the ability to split their fire or was that nerfed in 5th Edition. BTW, has there been an update to the FAQ for 5th ed. yet?

As for how I would like to play, my style has always been to go for a more shooty style than anything else. I'm a firm believer in that if you throw enough bullets our there your bound to take more than a few pieces off the board. Granted this comes form many years as a DA player but it should be a workable strategy here as well. Unless you guys think that I'm off my rocker :yes:

Also, if I understand this correctly, your Terminators or Wolf Guard do not like teleporting? if this is true do you have to take drop pods when you want to deepstrike?

 

Thanks,

 

Fh

[OnlyInDeath]

Ok, lots of questions, here's some answers:

 

1. Yes, our terminators will not deep strike. To get them across the board you are lookin at either a landraider variant or a drop pod.

 

2. GH start out with bp/ccw and you can add a bolter for +1 pt. You will also have to buy any grenades that you may want to put on them. (1 frag, 2 krak). You can give up to 2 models per pack a PW or PF (10 or 15 pts), one model can take a flamer, melta or plasmagun (6, 10 or 12 pts) and up to 2 can take a plasma pistol at 10 pts each. Needless to say, these can be expensive units, but will provide the bulk of your army and the shooty skills combined with decent weapons, countercharge and true grit will mean that they can pour out fire and take a charge better than any tac marine in the game.

 

3. Long Fangs can still split fire, prolly until the next dex

 

4. The updated FAQ is up and running on the GW website in the articles section. You will have to dig around a bit, i dont have the link on me.

 

5. As for wolves being shooty, it's definately an option, but I think you will get used to smashing assaults the more you play the wolves. Options like blood claws, bloodclaw bikers, ven dreads and pretty much anything out of the armory will beef up your assault skills. OBEL scouts are still definately a useful way to put a thorn in your enemy's backs, and the leman russ exterminator is a pretty fun little option. Like the post above said, get yourself a dex and it will all become clearer:)

[ForeverHero]

Hmm.. thanks for the information. I never realized that the Grey Hunters operated like that; always thought they were like a combination of TAC and Vet squad. Bummer about the Terminators though as I do like to use them as a surprise for my opponent's backfield. It looks like I'll be getting a couple of the new drop pod models then... sweet :))

 

I also just finished reading some of the rumors of the new SM Codex that and I'm hoping that the SW get combat squads and BP & CCW like CSM. Then I can take more Razorbacks to support my Grey Hunters; I'm a fan of Heavy Weapons if you hadn't noticed, especially the PC :)

 

As for color schemes, what is the colors for Grimnar's Company, specifically his shoulder pad design and symbol.

 

Thanks for the info on emailing Canada GW to obtain a copy of the old dex. I just sent of the request so hopefully they'll respond soon.

 

Thanks Again,

 

FH

[kanaellars]

I would not recommend Space Wolves as a shooty army. We are a Counter-Assault Army.

 

We get lots of power weapons and some wargear that make us very bad up close.

 

For example, here is my basic troops choice (explanations below it)

 

Troops: Grey Hunter Pack

9 Grey Hunters

Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Close Combat Weapon (x7); Bolter (x9); Power Fist (x1); Power Weapon (x1); True Grit; Wolf Guard Leader

 

1 Rhino @ [65] Pts

Storm Bolter; Extra Armor; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter

 

1 Wolf Guard Leader @ [86] Pts

Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Lightning Claw (x1); Storm Shield (x1); True Grit; Wolf Pelt

1 Auspex @ [2] Pts

1 Bionics @ [5] Pts

1 Master-Crafted Weapon (Lightning Claw) @ [10] Pts

1 Wolf Pelt @ [3] Pts

1 Wolf Tooth Necklace @ [10] Pts

 

Some points of interest:

 

>Grey Hunter Squad is 6-10 strong, and can add a Wolf Guard Leader (aka Company Veteran)

>Grey Hunters get 2 power weapons, ALWAYS get your power weapons!

>WGL can take wargear, wargear is good.

>Wolf Pelt (as you are new to wolves) gives +1 Attack on the counter-attack, (in addition for the 1 for Ld test in 5th, so +2 on a pass)

>Wolf Tooth Necklace means that the WGL ALWAYS hits on a 3+ in CC, regardless of opponents skill.

 

 

Our strategy? Get about 6 inches away from our enemy and rapid fire... then make him assault us, so that we get our Counter-Attack bonuses, then shred him.

 

Thats how we wolves fight.

[kanaellars]

Oh, and a few other things...

 

Here is how I personally outfit our other Troops choice, the Blood Claws...

 

Troops: Blood Claws Pack (400 Pts)

15 Blood Claws Pack @ 400 Pts

Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol (x12); Close Combat Weapon (x15); Power Fist (x1); Power Weapon (x2); Wolf Guard Leader

 

1 Wolf Guard Leader @ [72] Pts

Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Lightning Claw (x1); Storm Shield (x1); True Grit; Wolf Pelt; Wolf Tail Talisman

1 Auspex @ [2] Pts

1 Wolf Pelt @ [3] Pts

1 Wolf Tail Talisman @ [1] Pts

1 Wolf Tooth Necklace @ [10] Pts

 

 

 

As far as Long Fangs, If you like plasma, here is a build for them... (also, it is the Pack Leader who allows us to split fire, if he does not shoot he can direct them at 2 targets instead of 1)

 

Heavy Support: Long Fang Pack (340 Pts)

4 Long Fang Pack @ 340 Pts

Plasma Cannon (x4); True Grit

 

1 Razorback @ [81] Pts

Twin Linked Heavy Bolter; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Searchlight

 

1 Pack Leader @ [47] Pts

Bolter; Power Weapon; True Grit

 

 

 

And lastly, for that support in the enemies backfield you wanted...

 

Elite: Wolf Scouts (6#, 134 Pts)

6 Wolf Scouts @ 134 Pts

Frag Grenades; Melta Bombs; Close Combat Weapon (x4); Bolter (x6); Power Weapon (x2)

 

 

You see, 1 of our units of wolf scouts gets OBEL, or Operate behind enemy lines. This allows them to enter play from reserve on ANY table edge (including yes, right behind your opponent)

[ForeverHero]

So is it required that I take Blood Claws or can I stick with Grey Hunters? or is that not recommended? The reason I ask is that for years as a DA player, my impression was that Blood Claws were like neophytes or scouts; close but not really a Space Marine.

[DragonPup]

So is it required that I take Blood Claws or can I stick with Grey Hunters? or is that not recommended? The reason I ask is that for years as a DA player, my impression was that Blood Claws were like neophytes or scouts; close but not really a Space Marine.

 

The only unit you are required to take are Grey Hunters. So why Blood Claws? at 14 points, they are WS3, BS3 in power armor. Their strength lies in being able to take a number of power weapons, and the big one is their Berserk Charge rule. When they charge, they get +2 attacks instead of +1. Each BC gets 4 attacks charging. And interestingly enough when countercharging, too.

[GI Joker]

ForeverHero, I am in the exact same boat as you are right now. I started with DA way back when 2nd ed first came out and have played them pretty consistently ever since with a few distractions here and there. When the last dex for wolves came out I decided it was time for a change but due to my old bottle of shadow grey running out and having to switch to the new (for the time) formula, half my wolves were sort of blue-grey and the other half were more, well, powder blue is the name they give it when applied to tacky tuxedos. I decided to sell them to my friend (they were destroyed soon after by being forgotten on the roof of his mom's car and then driving away) but I've always wanted to go back and try my hand at them again and do it right this time, as it were. Right now I am just sticking to the odds and ends of the army until the new dex comes out. I know basically what I want in the army: two squads of hunters, a big squad of blood claws in a LRC, 5 termies, venerable dread, some long fangs, and maybe a predator. I want to mechanize as may of the squads as possible. I just don't want to get into the nuts and bolts of it yet because I don't know how many PW/PF and such will be allowed per squad and all that. For the time being I just painted a Logan, an Iron priest (he was on sale), I'm finishing up the Land Raider (just got the forge world doors in the mail), and I will be starting the termies this week end (forge world again). I've decided to take my time with these guys, codex grey armor, metal shoulder pads, forge world bits, lots of customization, the whole nine yards. I even got one of the older blood claw sergeant models from eBay. Hopefully the dex will be out for the holidays or shortly there after so we can start building in earnest.

[Lord Howland Greywolf]

Its always good to have a Blood claw unit. I personally have 3 PW's in a fifteen man squad with a WGSL armend with PF and bolt pistol. This doesnt break the pts bank and is incredibly effective. Add a Rune preist for protection.

[ForeverHero]

So I now have a copy of the SW Dex from GW Canada and after reviewing it I have a better understanding of the current SW Army. However, I am still a little leary of jumping knee deep into creating the army because of the unknown changes that could occur when the new Dex is released. So as a result, I have begun to put together most of my two Grey Hunter squads but I am leaving the last two models of each squad weaponless until the Dex is released. Like GI Joker, I want to make sure that i can take PW/PF models in the squad before I spend time and effort modeling them.

 

I have also decided to build two boxes of Dev aka Long Fangs so that I have plenty of Heavy Weapons to choose from when the time comes. I have also ordered the FW Termies and Rhino Doors so that I can begin to include some vehicles. I'm also planning to get a couple of the new drop pod models when they are released.

 

Finally, any tips that you guys can give me would be great and do you think it's worth getting a box or two of Blood Claws now or would it be best to wait until we see more info on the Dex?

 

Cheers,

 

FH

[Wolf89]

From what I hear blood claws will still be extremely worth it, I'd get a box at least and see how it goes (supposedly they'll get FC which is a nice boost).

 

I think you have the right idea on holding off on the special weapons just yet. You can build your grey hunters with a bolter/ccw as they'll get bolter/ccw/bolt pistol I hear. If not at least give them bolters and that'll do just fine (you can always model a bayonet on the end of their bolters which some SW players enjoy doing.

 

Drop pods are a solid army for Space Wolves, but if you're already investing in FW doors and such I'd go with a few rhinos for now and see how it goes before buying some pods (you need at least 3 pods in the list to be effective).

[WolfLordLars]

When you were told that we cant do shooty, you were misinformed. We are marines, we can do whatever we want. ;)

 

But, compared to DA, we wont do the kind of shooty you are used to, so you will probably want a mix. DA shoot, BA assault, we do it all. I have had alot of success, especially against DA players who like to think they are the masters of all that is ranged combat.

 

Blood Claws get +2 on the charge, or the counter-attack (with a leadership test), which does (generally) make up for the lower WS/BS. Bring a big back (15) if you bring them at all, they work better in numbers.

 

The SW Terminator parts are pretty nice, got a set last year and am just now getting around to it. If you like terminators, one thing you should enjoy is how flexible we are with ours. Packs can take individual Wolf Guards (think Veteran Sgts), and they can be in TDA. I regularly bring a DP with 3 AC's (WGBL can take 1, then 2 on the 4-man pack), and a healthy mix of weapons. Most folks expect shooting or assaulting, we do both. With the new DP's being 12-man capacity, I think we might be able to fit 6 Terminators in them now, which would be awesome.

 

Units to run with in just about any situation:

- Wolf Priest (cheap HQ which is mandatory for us)

- Ven Dread (WS/BS 5, and can fill in for HQ)

- WGBL [Wolf Guard Battle Leader] (another semi-cheap HQ, and can take Wolf Guard heavy weapons)

 

For your Grey Hunters, pick a theme and stick to it. If you want them to shoot, go all out with plasma and maybe a power weapon. If you want them to do anything else, Bolter/CCW, 1 Power Weapon, 1 Power Fist, and Flamer/Melta. Works like a charm.

 

Long Fangs are HIGHLY overrated. Way too much cost for what you get, and we do not get the ablative 'troops' that a devestator squad does. Every model lost in that unit hurts. I think your better off using a Dread for your ranged shooting.. TLLC/ML works very well, which is what I use. My Long fangs only see combat when I want to show off the custom 'modeling' I did with them (they are the old style models, holding their heavy weapon on the right shoulder.. with the left arm I have them flipping my opponent off) or I REALLY need to spend points.

 

Put a list together and lets see what your planning... that should be a good place to start.

[ForeverHero]

OK... I did some reviewing last night and put together a list using Army Builder. Please review and tell me what I need to change or adjust.

 

Logan Grimnar

-w/ DP and attached to Wolf Guard

 

WGBL

- TDA w/ AC, CML and FB

- Wolf Pelt

- Wolf Tooth Necklace

 

WG Body Guard

- TDA w/ 2 AC, 4 CML, 2 SB, PW, CF and 2 PF

-Wolf Pelt

- Wolf Tooth Necklace

 

Wolf Priest

- Frag, Krak and MB

- attached to Grey Hunter squad

Grey Hunters (9)

- 7 Bolters, 1 Plasma Gun and 9 CCW

- Frag, Krak

- WGL w/ PP and PW

-- Frag, Krak and Melta Bombs

-- Wolf Pelt

-- Wolf Tooth Necklace

- Rhino

-- Extra Armor and Smoke

 

Grey Hunters (10)

- 8 Bolters, 1 Plasma and 9 CCW

- FG and KG

- WGL w/ BP and PW

-- FG, KG and MB

-- Wolf Pelt

-- Wolf Tooth Necklace

 

Grey Hunters (10)

- 8 Bolters, 1 Plasma and 9 CCW

- FG and KG

- WGL w/ BP and PW

-- FG, KG and MB

-- Wolf Pelt

-- Wolf Tooth Necklace

 

Dreadnought

- ML and TLLC

- Extra Armor

- Smoke Launchers

- Search Light

 

Whirlwind

- Vengeance Missiles

- Extra Armor

- Smoke Launchers

 

Again Please let me know what your think. Also this is a 2k list as my gaming club at the store is mostly playing games of this size.

 

Thanks,

 

FH

[OnlyInDeath]

Ok, just a few points/questions:

 

1. For GH, I typically dont use any grenade upgrades as I use them as a fire base, not an attacking force. They are much better at double tapping bolters and recieving a charge than they are in charging an enemy without shooting. I always found it as a points sink that could be used much better elsewhere. Granted, this is just my take on things, but you wanted opinions:p

 

2. Am I seeing you putting an assault cannon AND cyclone missile launchers on the same models? A model w/ a CML cannot take an AC as well...Even if they could, I wouldnt do it as you could only fire one weapon system per turn.

 

3. I wouldnt take both krak grenades and MB's on your WGPL. It's redundant, and again, a points sink.

 

4. I would make your dread the venerable HQ dread. It makes it an even better option (bs/ws 5), the option to re-roll to see who goes first in the game, and it takes up an HQ choice which would free up some points for you for some more armor.

 

5. I dont think I would personally go with Logan. Right now, the old wolf isnt the best HQ option, and for the points cost you could make a custom Wolf lord in TDA w/ a FB, SB and some tasty add ons for about 100 pts less than logan, again, freeing up some points.

 

6. Runic Charms are a must-have upgrade to WGBG in TDA. Veeeeeeeery worth the 5 points.

 

7. Just a point of reference, a GH w/ a special weapon doesnt have the CCW. So the ones w/ plasma guns wont have it.

 

Overall, I think if you considered the role of each unit that you would like them to play on the battlefield and streamed down the weapons options to support this role, you would find that you have a significant chunk of points left to play with that you could invest in something like a vindicator, a blood claw pack, or something of the like. Try to avoid being redundant with weapons. Dont take needless upgrades for your vehicles either. A searchlight on a dreadnaught isnt the best option, as typically you will only see 1 round of night fight in a game, if that. Whirlwinds dont really need any points upgrades, as they are just going to be sitting way back and blasting anything in range, hopefully out of line of sight of anything that can hit it. Go ahead and drop the EA and SL on it.

[Wolf89]

OK... I did some reviewing last night and put together a list using Army Builder. Please review and tell me what I need to change or adjust.

 

I already see a problem, you're using Army Builder... :blush:

 

One thing about your heavy support... where is it?! hehe, your whirlwind I'd suggest giving it the other missiles that are S4 AP5 that ignore cover saves. As everything and their mother now get cover saves, I've seen lots of success with these kind of missiles (especially against the green tide!) ;)

 

-edit-

 

Gah, you beat me to it again OID, I second everything that he posted.

[ForeverHero]

hhmm.. interesting. I thought that it seemed odd as with my DA lists you couldn't select it after adding the AC or HF to the squad but under the SW List on Army Builder I could still select the CML; guess it must be a bug in the AB files.

 

I'll have to remove that from my list tonight and repost it. As for the other options, any thoughts or suggestions?

 

Thanks,

 

FH

[Wolf89]

hhmm.. interesting. I thought that it seemed odd as with my DA lists you couldn't select it after adding the AC or HF to the squad but under the SW List on Army Builder I could still select the CML; guess it must be a bug in the AB files.

 

You'll run into that a lot... especially with Space Wolves, or at least I've seen. :blush:

 

As for your WGPL's I'd suggest a power fist over power weapon in a squad or two. Since they'll likely be countering, against the big guys a power fist with a wolf pelt and wolf tooth necklace means that big bug or greater deamon is more likely to die.

[WolfLordLars]

Too much plasma in the packs. Meltas are where its at.

 

Also, no PW/PF in the packs either. You can take two (or one of each), and generally you should.

[OnlyInDeath]

Well, considering you would be having something like 300 pts left over if you make the above adjustments, I would say some additional firepower would go a long way. Something like a vindi or a LC'd out Predator. Also, I would suggest as a MUST a OBEL scout squad. I've played mine in about 5 games since finally finishing them, and those guys get back about 3-4 times thier points cost every single game.

 

For some real fun, drop one of the packs of GH's and make it a LRC with a large pack of BC's with PF's and a flamer, maybe throw the wolf priest in there with them. That'll give you a unit with some major pop against just about anything. In my tourney the other weekend, I had this exact unit (12 bc's to be exact) and they were by far my MVP's. Even if the BC's almost always died, they did so because after smashing apart a unit or two, they were running amok in my opponent's lines and drew pretty much the ENTIRE army's worth of fire, which gave the rest of my forces time to advance and annihilate.

[Wolf89]

If you do go with OID's addition of a crusader with BC's and the wolf priest, be sure to give the wolf priest 2 fenrisian wolves to give him extra staying power against pesky hidden fists. (12 BC's, 1 WP, 2 FW = 15 models, leaving you the option to add in another fenrisian wolf if you desire since the crusaders carry 16)

 

I don't know what lars is talking about... plasma's where it's at. :P I usually have a mix of both, I enjoy both, I embrace both, I overheat with both. :D

For the rhino squad I suggest a melta for sure so you can get in the 2D6 easier. Otherwise I enjoy plasma more for the extra range.

 

I find that vindicators are the bane in 5th, they're truely the powerhouse of any army. Stick them in some terrain, shoot away and watch your opponents go bye bye. It does everything, easy to pop that pesky monolith, negates the abundant FnP that's everywhere now, and controls hordes like nothing else. Did I mention it's only 125 points with a siege shield?

[ForeverHero]

As I am trying to build a list that will be compatible with the new codex, hopefully released soon, I left off the PF/PW on the Grey Hunters. I'll adjust the Wolf Guard tonight and then look at adding another Dread and possibly a Vindy or Predator Annihilator. Do we have any idea at all about what will be eliminated or added when the new Dex is released; just trying to get an idea for modeling purposes.

 

I hope that Sw will get Combat squads like my DA so that I can take Razorbacks instead of Rhinos. I can see that compared to DA the SW will have a hard time dealing with heavily armored armies like Imp Guard. I hate relying on Dread and Preds for anti-tank.

 

Regards,

 

FH

[OnlyInDeath]

Zah? dreads bad for tank hunting???

 

ML and TLLC on a dread (especially a vendread w/ bs5) is awesome for popping tanks! Just go for the real tanks first, ignore the chimeras with your anti-tank, meltas in squads can deal w/ them if needed.

 

Vindi's are a bit hit or miss (literally) when it comes to hunting tanks. If you are concerned about an armor heavy list, have a nice lil pred annihilator sitting around for that.

 

As for what will be dropped? who knows! lol. Right now the new dex is most likely around a year out, so you wont really have to worry about it for a long time, and I'm sure that any models that might have to be replaced can be used elsewhere in the army. I would just build what you want right now.

[ForeverHero]

Sorry OID, I meant to say that I hate relying on Dreds and Preds for anti-tanking because with my luck they'll get taken out first turn and then I'm up a creek so to speak :)

 

In my DA list, I have an abundance of Anti-tank options but it looked like my options were limited with a SW army. See in a 2k list I have a combo of PC, LC and ML in my TAC squads and a 10-man Dev squad of 4 ML. Then I also have Razorbacks with TLLC, a Dred w/ TLLC and ML and finally a Pred Annihilator for backup.

 

Now I'm learning that SW are CCW specialists but I;m concerned about the lack of direct anti tank options from the Grey Hunters. We all know that 5th Ed. is all about troops so I'm just trying to get tactical ideas as we have a few Guard players and they have several Russ's and Basilisks at their disposal.

 

Cheers,

 

FH