The 2 unnamed Legions, will they ever be revealed?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

CernunnosX Posted Today, 05:09 AM

Odd thought I had after reading Mechanicum: Couldn't Dorn's musings about having 15 rather than 13 just as easily refer to the two legions that had sided with Horus at the time? I mean, it is a fairly ambiguous statement. Nothing comes screaming out of the text and says "OH MY EMPEROR IT IS ABSOLUTELY ABOUT THE MISSING LEGIONS!" to me. I dunno, just my two cents I guess

 

He has to be referring to them by process of elimination. Five Legions have already turned - Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, World Eaters, Thousand Sons (the events on Prospero are concurrent with the events on Isstvaan III, so Dorn knows Magnus is up for trial for disobeying the Emperor).

 

The remaining four Traitor Legions have not revealed themselves at this point, they will do so at Isstvaan V. Dorn believes he had the nine Loyalist Legions plus the four who will turn at the Dropsite Massacre, making 13.

Horus has his four, plus potentially (in Dorn's eyes) the Thousand Sons. That makes 18 Legions, 13 versus 5.

The only Legions that could get Dorn's numbers up to 15 Legions would be the missing Legions.

[CernunnosX]

::facepalm:: I just reread the page 329 of Mechanicum. I totally misread what Malcador was saying. :)

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

What if, simply put the two missing legions simply suffered a crisis of faith and left? Taking their legions and attached armies and left the Imperium. That would be something stupid/unforgivable in the Emperors eyes but he would also probably be unwilling to send any of the other legions or armies after them during such a crucial time as the Crusade.

 

I like this as it shows that they can still return, perhaps in the End Times there will be a reckoning, perhaps the two lost legions and/or primarchs return for whatever personal reason.

 

 

Also what if the Emperors foresight saw the Heresy and the End Times and ordered those two legions to dissapear or leave until the End Times so as to tip the forces in his favour? Who knows.

[Dyp100]

Is it just me, or does DoW2 SEEM to hint back to BR's being one of the Lost Legions.

 

In a couple of loading screen texts, it says they can only track there history back to a great rebellion, I was thinking it could have been the Gothic war. (IDK if thats the right one, I meant the one where the Head of the Emperors church rebelled against the administration.) It also mentions that Terminator armour is a chapter relic, there is lots of hidden heresy in the background of the BR's, and Thule (I think) was even dishonoured by the Chapter Master for finding it in DC!

 

So, IDK, it seems like GW could use the BR's Lost Chapter-ness to get more money in DoW2, and back to them, it goes both ways.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

it says they can only track there history back to a great rebellion, I was thinking it could have been the Gothic war. (IDK if thats the right one, I meant the one where the Head of the Emperors church rebelled against the administration.)

 

I know what you mean, (though some small details aren't quite right, but anyway) and it's the Age of Apostasy you are thinking of.

[flamebrain]

I'll throw my own theory into the ring!

 

The Legion of the Damned, under their original name, discover a plot by the other Lost Legion that will destroy the Emperor's plans (maybe the are the first lured by Chaos?). With time being a major factor the opt to strike and wipe out the traitor legion before it can fulfill it's plans. Nobody else knew what was going on and just saw one legion wipe out another and the Emperor mistakenly blamed those who were actually loyal to him. The other Legions attacked and the surviving marines fled to become the Legion of the Damned: damned by the very people they are loyal too. Of course, with one Primarch being rumoured to possess invisibility, it isn't too much of a stretch to say that this accounts for the LoTD's knack for suddenly appearing and disappearing!

 

Maybe the Emperor actually discovered the truth in time but opted to hide it all the same as, at this point, Chaos was all but unknown to the rest of his followers. His own grief led him to erase the records of both, one for their failure to him, the other for his failure to them.

[dietrich]

Legion of the Damned, as stated elsewhere in this thread, were originally the Firehawks, part of the 21st founding.

 

Also, stated previously in this thread, at the start of the Heresy it was a completely foreign concept that marine would take up arms against another marine. Now, that doesn't mean that two chapters went to war against each other, and that information was not shared with other Chapters. So, it if happened, it was kept very secret.

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

Lots of nice speculation going on B)

 

I think fluff wise the most logical thing would be that they were destroyed/suffered a terrible accident (similar to the Emperor's Children Pre-Fulgrim, but more devastating). But Sources specifically state that 20 legions fought during the Great Crusade, so maybe not :P

 

From GW's point of view the 2 missing legions are just a basis for players to create their own stories, and unique chapters.

 

I've read loads of crazy theories :) some examples: (not my theories!)

- The 2 legions were banished by the Emperor early during the Great Crusade, for treachery of some kind. and left and established themselves in the Outer rim beyond the reaches of the Astronomican. Or even in a different galaxy altogether.

- The Emperor forsaw the Horus Heresy and the End Times (Pfff!) and sent the 2 legions away, to return in the 'final battle' (unlikely!)

- They were simply traitors but didn't take part in the Heresy, however there is then no reason why there details are deleted and the other traitor legions weren't, and also their statues on Terra were removed prior to the Heresy to my knowledge

- A Good theory was that the 2 Primarchs were simply killed, or lost, before they were discovered however it has been stated that the 2 Primarchs fought in the Great Crusade and their statues were removed, so this is unlikely.

- The Primarchs could have landed on planets devoted to Chaos, that they were brought up following Chaos consciously or unconsciously? therefore they could have been destroyed on being discovered? or even could have fought in the crusade but were so corrupt, they were killed and there legion disbanded?

- Another theory is that Sigmar from WHFB is one of the Primarchs. The 2 games have striking similarities and its possible. Old ones, Slann, Chaos, Elves/Eldar etc etc, but as i heard it GW struck down this theory as they wanted to keep the 2 games completly seperate, imagine the outburst from WHFB players if this was confirmed!

- A possibility (although extremley unlikely) is that Omegon is one of the missing Primarchs. But Omegon is Alpharius' twin, which the Emperor would have had to engineered if Omegon is one of the missing Primarchs. Alpharius Omegon was likely to have split into twins whilst in the warp due to mutation, see here

 

GW will never reveal the legions, for our sake... Speculate is all we can do :)

[Pacific81]

Is it just me, or does DoW2 SEEM to hint back to BR's being one of the Lost Legions.

 

Its not enough that the Blood Ravens have replaced the Blood Angels as GW's 'red' chapter of choice, now they're being viewed alongside the BA as a founding legion :wink:

 

I ask you, whats cooler, an angel with a massive sword covered in blood (Blood Angels), or a raven thats been run over by a car (Blood Ravens)? :)

 

*mutters something about retconning to cater to a bloody computer game*

[Mortigan]

As for the Blood Ravens, has it been officially knocked out that their origin is the Thousand Sons? It had gone as far at once to be suggested in thier write up on the GW website, but it had since been changed. There's an awful lot to those guys that points in that direction.

 

Page 329 of Mechanicum is certainly the biggest shard of light we've had on the 2 Lost. That conversation accounts for 18 chapters, and suggests that Dorn and Malcador not only know of the two- but know how to contact them. Why else would Dorn even ponder it to be shot right down?

 

I imagine we'll see a little more on the subject during the HH books, but I wouldn't be surpirsed if they never come right out and say who these two are. Not so much for home grown stuff... but (as previously mentioned) the mystery behind the hole thing. Sparked 11+ pages of posts on here alone, and this certinly isn't the first conversation on the subject.

 

Leaving these two open gives GW more buffer space as the 40k storey developes in time. Keep in mind how much of this thing has changed since it started in the 80's. Whether it be from staff changes, or just wanting to go into a different direction... So much has changed- even a little is a lot in the end. Notice how so much is written so specifically vague they can get out of a storey direction if needed?

 

But if there had to be one, my guess would be mutation. Bringing mutated mariens into the fold probably would not sit well with many of the other Primarchs, especially while on a crusade for human purity.

 

At the moment, it's just one of the great 40k mysteries that will keep the storey going for a long time to come.

[Scout Sniper]

Hey if the records were lost or destroyed and the lost 2 did fight in the great crusuade, then wouldn't Bjorn the fell-handed know, I mean he was one of the highest ranking SW during the Great Crusuade + the HH so he would remember them right?

[Hyrion]

yeah you'r right björn the fell-handed would remember them .....but he's still in an sarcophagus of an dreadnought and dont forget guys in there begin to forget a lot of things

[greatcrusade08]

Is ir possible that Dorn considered the thousand sons as a potential ally, he knew Magnus was up for trial, but he had been the focus of the Emperors wrath on a previous occasion and welcomed back to the fold.

Perhaps he was hoping that he could use the 1Ksons, when Malcador warns him that they are beyond saving...

 

Ok this only accounts for one of the 2 thats needed to make up the defecit but its possible no?

 

GC08

[Lord_Caerolion]

You should also include the Night Lords there, as they were renegade before the Heresy took place.

 

...I've just realised, both Magnus and Night Haunter were rebel before the Heresy, right? Now, why were both rebel? Magnus had tried to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal, and Night Haunter had beaten up Dorn after being accused of heresy for having visions of a massive civil war! Two "seperate tragedies", both "aberrations", one a sorceror, the other committing atrocities. Two 'lost' Primarchs, both gave warnings of what was to come, both were ignored. Dorn wonders about the covered Primarchs if they might not have both been warnings! The novella even goes on to state that Dorn fears that he could have prevented the Heresy had he not shunned Curze's visions.

 

Of course, the problem with this theory is that the Night Lords fought on Istvaan, sent by Dorn. Of course, we could take it that they weren't meant to be there, and instead some order-tampering by Horus diverted the order from a missing Loyalist Legion to the Night Lords a la Thousand Sons/Space Wolves incident...

 

 

Nope, just realised the book refers specifically to the 2nd and 11th Primarchs. There goes the Magnus/Curze theory...

[Dyp100]

The NL only fought in the HH because they are scum..AND POSSIBLY Curze had the vision of what was to come, and did the AL thing.

 

There Legions are Heretics now, and as we know, time in the warp corrupts...

[Loyal Lunawolf]

isnt blood ravens one because when they go into battle they say for the lost primarch?

[TheDarker]

One possibilitie: They were women (so too his legions). After some years of the Great Crusade when the others Primarchs tryed simply to impress them instead of colaborate, the Emperor decided that both sisters were more "useful" in any other task... far away of the boys :lol: ;)

 

 

Also, background of the LoTD states that they are SUPPOSED to be the Fire Hawks, but it´s only a rumor (or they should say specifically "yes, they are the fire hawks, ok?"). It´s as probably as they are the souls of old rock stars who wants to save the Imperium because they are the only ones who listen this music. (Everyone knows that the Traitor Legions listen Country....specially Perturabo ^_^ ^_^ )

[Skirax]

isnt blood ravens one because when they go into battle they say for the lost primarch?

Get Dawn Of War II. You will understand then. Everything will become clear.

[Dyp100]

One possibilitie: They were women (so too his legions). After some years of the Great Crusade when the others Primarchs tryed simply to impress them instead of colaborate, the Emperor decided that both sisters were more "useful" in any other task... far away of the boys :rolleyes: :P

 

 

Also, background of the LoTD states that they are SUPPOSED to be the Fire Hawks, but it´s only a rumor (or they should say specifically "yes, they are the fire hawks, ok?"). It´s as probably as they are the souls of old rock stars who wants to save the Imperium because they are the only ones who listen this music. (Everyone knows that the Traitor Legions listen Country....specially Perturabo :D :D )

 

Let me crush him...No really, the Fire Hawks are after the HH, founded WAY after!

 

And it has been stated that it is IMPOSSIBLE for female SM's...I think it may be possible for a Female Primarch, but that is a different story.

 

BTW, yes, get DoW2, that reveals A LOT more, espically in the loading screens.

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

Is ir possible that Dorn considered the thousand sons as a potential ally, he knew Magnus was up for trial, but he had been the focus of the Emperors wrath on a previous occasion and welcomed back to the fold.

Perhaps he was hoping that he could use the 1Ksons, when Malcador warns him that they are beyond saving...

 

Ok this only accounts for one of the 2 thats needed to make up the defecit but its possible no?

 

GC08

 

Yea i think he did, As the Emperor still planned to put Magnus on the Golden Throne to block the Imperial Webway gate, that Magnus accidentially broke the protective wards too.

[Lord Sinaris]

Whew, this was an informing thread... I never get arround much to getting any non-codex non-rulebook fluff. So, really great job all of you who summed up some of the info out there.

 

Now, way back in 2nd ed, when I was still a kid, I got sucked in by the myth of the two lost legions, and started creating my own chapter-fluff from them. I'm not going to elaborate on that right now, but it shows what the two legions really are all about - getting people interessted, adding depth and grandeur to a storyline that might else just be a bit to straightforward.

 

So, going back to the original question of this topic, we really have to take a meta-look at the two legions purpose. Some game-designer (not good on the names here) probably went arround one day finishing up a list of legions for the publishing (where was the first list published, anyway?). Now, there are two options:

 

 

1. He knew the basic history they had for each and every legion (obviously, they weren't all that fluffed out as they are today), including the two lost ones. They had decided to keep them unrevealed because it was a bit of storyline they wanted to get back to later, or just wanted to keep for themselves and thought it fit the looking of that list nicely to have some mistery in it.

 

2. He put down the names of legions they had already discussed and for which they had some ideas. Finally, he figured that there were two legions missing still, and just decided "what the heck, keep it obscure for obscurities sake". When that turned out to be a major treat for every hobbyist out there, they stuck with it and decided not to fill out the gaps.

 

 

Obviously, No2 is the more reasonable explanation, but I really believe that its only semi-true. Yes, most likely they purposely left out these names just because they could, and it looked cool. But then again, it IS so cool that hardly anyone I can imagine (well, at least anyone who did design an obscure sci-fi-game back in the 80s) would skip that piece of tasty fluff to fill out - at least in their minds.

If you ask me, each and every person involved in creating the Space Marine fluff had made up their own little version of the story behind the two legions. And quite possibly, they even sat down together and talked about it. And if THEY didn't, I bet following generations of GW-employess did. I am quite certain that, at least internally, there is somewhat of a consensus on the lore arround the two chapters.

 

Which leads us to the topic of wether we will ever get to know it. The answer is, quite obviously, no - not while GW is still running. You see, in order to keep the universe running and operational, they have to keep some ends open. We won't ever see something like an 8th edition rulebook where they write: "Yah, the emperor just died, and the final battle took place. You are now a potatoe-farmer in Kentucky, working hard but living happily ever after. Oh, and for old times sake: There is only war, or something...".

 

Thats not the way it goes. Somebody brought up the World of Darkness RPG-System earlier, and there they did some pretty extreme stuff to bring out their new version 2.0 of it. Within 40k, they can't, really. Their whole fluff is written out to point towards one final confrontation, a final struggle between good and evil. All very biblical, very apocalyptical, really. And not only for mankind - I remember even back in 2nd-ed Eldar-codex mentions of the final battle, whatever the name was. The history might be drawing nearer toward that point. The Necrons are awakening, the Tyranids are drawing closer, the Throne is failing and all that jazz.

 

Now, why do I mention this? Because I FIRMLY believe that the history of the two legions is connected to the final struggle. Yes, possibly they just died somewhere back in the days, but heck, that would be boooooring. Why erase the chapters when they are just plain gone? They want people to play arround with them, obviously. And hence, when they ever decide to bring them out, it will not be to state: "Oh yeah, you know, they have been dead all along, sorry". No, if they ever step out to tell us, they will tell something large. Space Marines are a central part of the galaxys fate, and of the fluff behind 40k, especially since pretty much EVERY new player will soon stumble across a list of the legions. Hence the two legions are bound to be part of the bigger picture.

 

In conclusion, what happens when you end all the mistery, resolve all the conflict and decide who the winner is? Well, then the movie is over, the lights go on and everyone leaves the cinema. Now, there are two reasons this won't happen with 40k:

The first one is that it would make a terrible book, except if it was VERY skillfully done. No matter in which way anyone would tell that story, it would still be bound to be a story of ending, struggle and ultimately a cheesy victory of good over evil. Thats the thing that SOUNDS really cool when you play it in your mind, but actually gets boring after about the 2nd Chaos God that would have to go down, or the 6th great primarch returning from the dead to slay this particularly nasty Tyranid over-hyper-super-mastermind.

The second is that, whilst many of us might have daydreams about that very topic or related issues, and some of us might have elaborated further on these matters (as might have many of the folks working for GW, including the older staff), at the time when anyone could actually go out and finish their own little story, it would also be the time when they could do so because nobody cared anymore, and hence nobody would put out a book about it.

 

My final guess (after which I will end this posting and start a second one, I suppose ^^) is that, in the end, when GW is about to close, or when they stop the 40k-franchise (it is bound to happen, eventually), we will be given some interviews from older developers telling us all their little secrets that they never let out so far. But what actually happens then... who would know. :huh:

[Lord Sinaris]

Now, as a second part (don't know if splitting posts this way is frowned upon here, if so, I'm sorry) I'm just adding a thing or two on the speculative part of the thread. By starting with listing a few things we can put in as a given:

 

- There were, indeed, 20 distinguishable primarch gene-seeds, and from each of them, a legion was created. No messing arround with twin-primarchs, emperor-seeds. 20 primarchs, 20 legions.

 

- Every legion took part in the great crusade, hence none of them was destroyed completly before that, nor did any of them perish because of a mistake on the emperors part in creating them.

 

- More tricky, yet still quite safe: Every primarch was found by the emperor. Most likely, in my opinion, they also followed the emperor, considering that they were genetically engineered to follow him. It was their calling, so the whole "were left alone because they bested the emperor"-thing doesn't really seem to fit with anything any of the others did. The only viable way arround this is the highly interessting "warp-time-jump"-theory (imagine: The primarch of one of them actually is the emperor, creating himself... time-loop!)

 

- Narrowing down the time: There is actually only the timespan of the Heresy which seems plausible. Disregarding the true impact of time on losing documents, I shall remind those who brought up things like "they were just purged from the recordings we have, maybe others know them" that we are still dealing with fiction. And if GW purges them from records, they quite obviously want them to be lost. For serious reals, yo!

Knowing that, during no other time did the Imperium fall to such a massive chaos and struggle as to actually lose two entire legions. Consider that there is a giant machinery of war linked to each legion. Before there heresy, and after the Imperium got back on its feet, an entire legion going missing would turn some wheels even in the slow machine that is the administration of Terra. People would know. If they just went away, billions of workers, inhabtitants of planets they garisoned, Inquisitors who surveyed them and Lords of Terra who considered their purity would know, as would, finally, other chapters of the Space Marines. Most importantly though, if they weren't purged during the Heresy, then they would have been split up into chapters during the following years, making it unlikely that all the chapters fell to the same fate even after seperating.

Only during the heresy does it seem likely that enough that enough people knowing them died, that something drastic enough happened to them and that other chapters probably didn't find it odd that they were suddenly gone (or probably didn't notice that nobody knew them anymore until they themselves eventually didn't care). During the turmoils of the heresy, a chapter could have been... well... something, and people would just not remember or care, meaning that there would be few enough records of them or the event that it would be actually possible to erase them from memory.

 

 

Given these data, I now plunge into my final speculation. I am aware, by the way, that I mix freely between using meta-arguments and fluff-inherent points; especially between disregarding some points and backing others. I just try to explain how it all fits together from my point of view, though ^_^

 

- First: It amazes me how everyone still sticks with them being purged by Imperial authorities. I wonder if I overread it, but there is one other option still. That they themselves, by some means, decided to erase themselves from mankinds collective memory. That they went into hiding, or on a secret mission of their own design, and took measures beforehand to ensure noone would be following them.

 

- Second: As stated in the above post, I don't believe anything as big in the background could just be something that was happening elsewhere too. It would be a major disappointment if they had just been two other traitor legions. Given that the original heretics already commited pretty much every atrocity conceivable, there would really be no crime big enough and no treason large enough to really justify them being erased, wheras others weren't. No, really, to be only two out of 20, it has to be something unique. Well, or... doublique, whatever ^^

 

- Third: I consider it most likely that the fates of the legions are linked. Its to tempting an idea to disregard it. The link could be some sort of cooperation, but going for the dramatic approach, my money would be on one of the two wiping out the other in some way or another. Be it as a sacrifice, as a punishment for betrayal, or just as some giant misunderstanding. Who knows.

 

- Foruth and last: My own version, short. I would go for something like this: During the last days of the heresy, Legion II and XI were still far away from Terra. By some sort of demonic influence and a great deal of misunderstandings and betrayal, the primarch of one of them (a strong psycher) was tricked into believing the other Legion to be traitors. He then ordered an attack on them. During the battle, his men (lets say they are from legion II) were increasingly blinded by hatred against the supposed traitors, and didn't realise that they were slipping into the arms of chaos, opening their minds to the warp to strengthen their rage. Finally, when the day came to an end (and they came to their senses), Legion XI was wiped out, their former brothers slain at their feet, and they were left with nothing but horror at what they had done. Add some primarch-goes-mental/missing/Lion-like-anguish here.

Scrambling away from the site of the massacre, they needed to decide on what to do next. They knew that they would face extermination (since Horus had just been defeated) if they didn't flee into the warp, but they also were pure at heart, and had, after the heat of battle had faded, resisted the temptation of chaos. To escape the grasp of the Imperium, in order to one day in the future (add prophecy here) redeem their name and save all of mankind, they first erased the memory of themselves from every record they could, and also the memory of some with their impressive psychic power.

Finally, they fled into the Eye of Terror, offering their services to the dark gods. But in the innermost center of their beings, they kept their devotion to mankind alive, even while committing terrible attrocities in the name of chaos. One day, they would emerge from the warp, blessed with all its strengths, shrugging of all its weaknesses by the sheer power of their will and the light of the emperor - the ultimate warriors of mankind. Maybe they have emerged already, hiding from each side for the milennia, until the time to strike comes. Who knows...

[TheDarker]

And it has been stated that it is IMPOSSIBLE for female SM's...I think it may be possible for a Female Primarch, but that is a different story.

 

 

Impossible with the KNOW geneseed. Maybe the Emperor did the lost primach-ess with an "specialness" so they can create female space marines...Imagine two legions of female warriors... and then imagine 18 legions of male warriors trying to impress them XD

[greatcrusade08]

Space marines IIRC have no sexual desires.

This being said i still think its unlikely to have female warriors, physiologically men are stronger/faster etc to women (not that i want to start a debate nor am i cheuvanist), but given that all other space marines are male it seems extremely unlikely that there would be female marines, even less likely that there would be a whole legion of them...

 

Regardless of whether or not there were female primarches (doubtable), most legions were formed before thier respective primarches were found, and the original legions were all founded from earths inhabitants...

 

GC08

[dietrich]

It's unlikely the II and XI were around at the time of the Heresy. It's more likely they disappeared soon before the Heresy started and weren't deleted from records until after the Heresy.

 

Also consider that it was a totally unheard of concept for marine to turn against marine at the time of the Heresy, even among captains of the legions. While it's possible there had been an earlier civil war, and that only the Primarchs knew, it's unlikely. Marines knew of the other legions, and knew of their reputation.

 

I think it's possible that one or both of the missing legions is set to return for the final battle/end times/etc. But, if that was the case, why didn't the Emperor bring them out during the Heresy?

 

I'm in the 'they'll never say what happened' camp, but with the HH novels, anything is possible. One of the authors has said that the secrets revealed in Legion aren't the biggest secrets that will be revealed. So, anything is possible.