The 2 unnamed Legions, will they ever be revealed?

[Doghouse]

In the Lightning Tower Dorn wonders to himself if the fate of these two Legions was a warning of what was to come.

I'd say they rebelled.

[Ravingbantha]

In the Lightning Tower Dorn wonders to himself if the fate of these two Legions was a warning of what was to come.

I'd say they rebelled.

if they rebelled, then why deleate them and not the other traitor chapters. Besides in all the HH books so far, every time the concept of marine fighting marine is mentioned by a loyal marine, he thinks it unconceiveable, as though no legion has ever done such a thing

[Ravingbantha]

They were originally left out, just to add some mystique to the whole thing. I mean; 10,000 years of history is bound to casue some loss of data, even in the far future, which was probably the whole idea behind the fact. This was way before the Horus Heresy was anything other than something out of myth and history, only touched upon by the games Space Marine and Horus Heresy.

 

Only later, people began to wonder, when the history and events were slowly built up into a coherent universe, what happened to the two missing Legions. This was because we received so much info on the other Legions, that it seemed odd that absolutely nothing was known about the two.

 

We can't look for meaning in every small fraction of official fluff either, as individual writers have different views on the matter and will leave contradicting clues in their work. One notable one is a short story, originally in Warhammer Monthly (if I recall correctly) where there is mention of the Iron Hearts and their Primarch Rubinek. This is the only place this info can be found and most probably there was just a small error on the writer's part, where he wrote Primarch instead of Chapter Master, which was overlooked.

 

Then there is the semi-official information that Sigmar of WHFB fame is actually a Primarch and that the Warhammer world is actually a world in the 40K universe (and there actually is compelling information that this might be the case). This once was an official angle but has since been abandonned. However, at times some references are still being made, one of the better known ones the treasure objects that could be claimed in the WHFB Albion summer campaign of a couple of years ago. These consisted of Boltpistols, Powerfists etc.

 

I doubt there will ever be an official revelation regarding the lost legions, no matter how extensive the iniformation is on the rest of Imperial history. In several books, there is mention of erasure squads venturing deep within the archives of Terra, incinerating certain tomes that contain historical data deemed too dangerous by whomever in power gave the order to erase it. most probably, that is how the information of the two Legions got destroyed and lost for posterity.

 

This topic has been raised so many times, we're running out of horses to club though, so perhaps trying Searchy will help you finding more opinions (and that's all they ever are!) on the subject since this topic pops up just about every fortnight or so...

i never heard that thing about sigmar, if it were true, i'll bet u that the assault termies all used thunder hammers.

 

but if it were true, that WHFB to place on a 40k planet, then why arent the orks using their stuff?

 

WHFB does take place on a 40k Planet... want proof? Slaanesh was born just before the great crusade, and he exists in WHFB. Now granted there is the argument that Chaos and time are irrelivent but still. I imagine that the WHFB world is an exodite world cut off by a warp storm. Perhpas a world much like armageddon, that at one point was being fought over by most all factions, untill the storm cut it off.

 

I personally have wondered if Sigmar is not the Emperor of Humanity, after all it states he simply got up one day and left and was never seen. I'm thinking he decided to take a ship and leae, or he stumbled across one, went out and discovered a whole galaxy to rule over. Since the WHFB world looks alot like earth after a metor hit (the High Elf island looks like an impact crater), it would stick that the emperor if from old earth, and he found a new ssytem that is just like our solar system and renamed it. Same thing happened in the first HH book, the Luna Wolver showed up on a planet called earht and killed the emperor.

[Munting]

My own opinion ont hemsisign two legions.

 

Maybe they died fighting the enemies of the imperium at its birth?

 

If the data of two whole legions defeat was well known the other legions would know they were not unbeatable- so it wa ssimple propaganda?

[conor777]

My Opinion is this:

 

One of the legions rebelled BUT this was before the Heresy so the Emperor deleted all mention of them, he was the ONLY one with the power to do this and after he was near slain by Horus he had other things to say in the few minutes/hours/days or whatever about the future. (like how to set the golden throne) rather then about expunging the whole recoreds from history.

 

the other legion i belive has gone past the furthest reaches of imperium space and could possibly be holding off the nids (as the 3 hive fleets are scouting ships -------u never know)

 

 

of course i could be wrong but hey meh.

[captain azilus]

maybe the reason that those two legions have been expunged and the other traitor legions havent is simply that they still exist as ..and should they finally be wiped out they too would be expunged ..but at the moment they act as a reminder of 2 things 1/ who the enemy are 2/that even the mighty can fall by the wayside.

[corncob]

I think GW should just make a story for the lost legions because at this point it's become a cliche to make your custom chapter a lost legion.

[Bigger-than-Jesus]

WHFB does take place on a 40k Planet... want proof? Slaanesh was born just before the great crusade, and he exists in WHFB. Now granted there is the argument that Chaos and time are irrelivent but still. I imagine that the WHFB world is an exodite world cut off by a warp storm. Perhpas a world much like armageddon, that at one point was being fought over by most all factions, untill the storm cut it off.

 

I personally have wondered if Sigmar is not the Emperor of Humanity, after all it states he simply got up one day and left and was never seen. I'm thinking he decided to take a ship and leae, or he stumbled across one, went out and discovered a whole galaxy to rule over. Since the WHFB world looks alot like earth after a metor hit (the High Elf island looks like an impact crater), it would stick that the emperor if from old earth, and he found a new ssytem that is just like our solar system and renamed it. Same thing happened in the first HH book, the Luna Wolver showed up on a planet called earht and killed the emperor.

Except for the fact that it's been stated numerous times that the two games are seperate. WFB has nothing to do with 40k anymore, and Sigmar is most definately not a primarch as he was born to a human woman(tied to a tree if youy want serious details lol). Just read the life of sigmar by BL if you dont beleive me, it's in that book(part of the fluff was that he was born in the blood of the enemy, hence why he was so great).

[Pierre Degart]

The emperor didnt appreciate the two space marine legions.

 

Especially when one of them was called 'The emperors lapdancers' and the other primarch one was a practical joker :P interesting concept and one im sure that i alone subsribe to. :P

[Brother Tyler]

Except for the fact that it's been stated numerous times that the two games are seperate. WFB has nothing to do with 40k anymore...

I find this difficult to reconcile with Liber Chaotica. The books are written from an WHFB perspective and the WH40K game universe and denizens thereof are clearly portrayed. Examples include Magnus the Red and his Thousand Sons, the Black Crusades (those of Abaddon the Despoiler and others), etc.

 

Ultimately, I don't subscribe to the Sigmar-is-a-Primarch theory, nor do I see the WHFB world as being a planet set in the WH40K universe, but there is clearly some relationship between the two game universes.

 

As for the two missing legions, GW seems to be deliberately avoiding descriptions of them or their fate. Even the Horus Heresy novels skirt around the issue, giving only vague hints without going into anything resembling concrete details.

 

Sometimes a little unsolved (and unsolveable) mystery is good.

[Cato Sicarius]

Just for the record, the relationship would probably be that they are both called "Warhammer". And yeah sometimes a little mystery can be good, but it get's annoying after a while.

 

And the Emperor named the Legions. So he wouldn't be unhappy about a name Pierre Degart. It wouldn't be called that anyway.

[The Emperor's Champion]

As Daeothar mostly pointed out:

 

Iron Hearts (Legion) - Rubineck (Primarch)

and

Valedictors (Legion) - Sigmar (Primarch by process of elimination)

 

Sigmar has every indication of being a Primarch (even being born to a human woman doesn't change that) and the WFB world is CLEARLY very closely tied to the 40k world and is most likely a planet trapped in a Warp storm pocket isolated and forgotten by the galaxy at large.

Tho officially denied by GW it continues to be referenced by them and has ended up being a lot like the whole Area 51 government cover up conspiracy theory. GW can deny it all they want directly, but as long as they continue to contradict themselves it's hard to give anything they say credit

 

Ask Brother Pariah about the Iron Hearts, Valedictors and Rubineck. He has all 3 in his signature (so I figure he can elaborate).

[CernunnosX]

I've read Heldenhammer from the Warhammer books, and my personal opinion based on it is that Sigmar isn't a primarch. He's definitely a badass, but nowhere near the likes of Russ or Dorn. Again, just my personal opinion.

 

I don't buy Rubineck as one of the two either. But only because if they ever do something with an actual unknown primarch they would hand it to Abnett or one of the other heavy hitters, not a guy I've only every heard of in passing, and certainly not one or two lines in a short story. It just seems like if they are going to do it and actually use the word primarch (deliberately and not as a missed editing mistake), they'd do something bigger.

 

Just my two cents.

[Greyjoy]

I am unsure about WHFB/WH40k being linked, but imo it is about time that they revealed at least some fluff about the 2 missing Legions.

 

I really hope the reason for them remaining unknown isn't so players can create their own Legions, because that is terrible and unoriginal. Creating a Legion and sticking "Missing II/XI Legion" on it? Come on, where's the creativity?

 

It would be nice to find out something shocking about the two missing Legions...Something like them being Pariah's like a previous poster said, or having the (Aforementioned in Conspiracy threads) Invisibility power that the Emperor had by some accident in their making, causing the Emperor to consider them a threat and destroying them.

 

Well I guess we'll discuss this forever. :D It's doubtful that they'll just come out and tell us.

[Lord_of_Volgar]

Well my theory is that the missing legions took no side during the heresy and just waited it out, playing both sides of the street, cause that is worse than heresy, if your a traitor then you are one if your a loyalist then you are one but a neutral person who plays games with both sides is more dangerous and you cant be sure if they are on your side or not.

[Brother-chaplain Astador]

Well I think the most logical explanation is

 

The Legions rebelled/were destroyed/lost BEFORE they were united with their specific Primarchs

 

It was definately something that happened BEFORE the primarchs joined the great crusade because they have no knowledge of it

[Lord_of_Volgar]

Well in some texts they are desrcibed as taking part in the crusade cause they had legions and primarchs, and there are texts that say 20 legions took part in the heresy, so they must have still existed at that point.

[lord arkon]

I might just be talking pure nonsense here but I believe I could have an answer to one of the legions. One of the missing unknown primarch's possesed "invisibility" as stated in the fluff, maybe the Emperor kept this primarch and his legion secret and covered them up simply because the space marines created from this primarch could have also possessed invisible skills due to the sharing of his genes, maybe these marines were used for a currently unknown purpose.

 

Number two I personally believe that as seen in the HH book False Gods Horus damages one of the capsules containg the primarch which then along with the rest was sucked out and presumably found itself to a respective world, once found the primarch could have died due to this and thus his legion was either disbanded of was simply never created.....

 

Ya never know?

[Greyjoy]

I might just be talking pure nonsense here but I believe I could have an answer to one of the legions. One of the missing unknown primarch's possesed "invisibility" as stated in the fluff, maybe the Emperor kept this primarch and his legion secret and covered them up simply because the space marines created from this primarch could have also possessed invisible skills due to the sharing of his genes, maybe these marines were used for a currently unknown purpose.

 

Number two I personally believe that as seen in the HH book False Gods Horus damages one of the capsules containg the primarch which then along with the rest was sucked out and presumably found itself to a respective world, once found the primarch could have died due to this and thus his legion was either disbanded of was simply never created.....

 

Ya never know?

To your first point, I kinda said that in this thread scroll up :D

 

And to your second point..I think what Horus saw was JUST a vision..He wasn't actually there you see? It was just something Erebus tricked Horus into seeing. Some Chaos fantasy.

[Servant of Ultramar]

As far as Sigmar goes...are any of you familiar with the Might and Magic universe?

 

For those who aren't, it's a series of both SP RPGs and TBSs that is set in what appears to be your standard fantasy world. However, it is in fact a technologically advanced society that has regressed backwards to the point of barbarism, fantastical creatures springing up as they do so. The stereotypical fantasy demons that invade, the Kreegans, are in fact aliens who crashland on a spaceship, and it's theorized that the most powerful human unit, the Archangel, is some kind of automaton or something.

 

This makes for a really cool background, and also a believable one; having the WHFB world as a regressed 40k one (cut off by warp storms and never reunited, perhaps?) where no one can remember the scifi stuff anymore would be plausible, no matter whether or not it is true.

[Cyrox]

if they rebelled, then why deleate them and not the other traitor chapters. Besides in all the HH books so far, every time the concept of marine fighting marine is mentioned by a loyal marine, he thinks it unconceiveable, as though no legion has ever done such a thing

 

Its possible they were deleted as it happened pre heresy, but after the great crusade, to keep whatever happened hush-hush.

 

The records of the other traitor legionsd weren't deleted as the scale of the betrayl was so large you couldn't possible cover it up, too many witnesses and all that.

 

The aforementioned 'Invisibilty' power that one of the Primarchs had is omething i remeber reading around the time of the 2nd edition, and its a decent enough idea that legion 2 or 11 had this primarch :D

 

I think GW will eventually give in and let a few morsels of info out eventually, most likely when profits are low and they need a new sales pitch lol.

 

Maybe they could tie it in with Russ coming back for the Wolftime and the other missing Primarchs, Corax and Vulkan (I hope they don't though)

[Grand Master SFDRF]

from the evidence i have seen, They are still kicking, just all data about them was corrupted in the Imperiams systems, and this hasn been rectified

[Chris186]

on a slightly different note, if they were to bring back the loyal primarchs, how many are certainly toast? We know that Ferrus Manus ( decapitated by Fulgrim ), Sangunius ( killed by Horus ) and Rogal Dorn ( killed on a Chaos Ship, his body has been cut up and distributed as relics iirc ) are dead. But of the rest, Lion 'el Jonson is in the middle of the Rock and, iirc, still alive, Gulliman is technically dead, but reports of his healing in stasis field mean he could concievably be bought back, and the other four ( Vulkan, Jaghatai Khan, Leman Russ and Corax ) have disapeared

[gil galed]

the WHFB and 40k did certainly used to be linked, multiple times 40k weapons appeared in FB and were treasures / relics etc. indeed i heard once about chaos troops using noise weapons in FB however GW officially cut them off so while sigmar may once have been a candidate for primarch he certainly isn't now, i'm sure we all remember the zealousness which official forum mods purged topics relating to space dwafs, so for now i think personally the lost legions did something bad (not like rebellion otherwise the HH would not have been such a surprise) like losing a crucial battle or believing in a different dogma (not rebelling but being different) indeed most Sm's dont recognize the emperor as a god

 

 

Primarch List:

 

Traitors:

Horus ~ Dead : but could be resurrected by bile in some weird state

Fulgrim ~ Alive and well

Perturbo ~ Alive and Well

Angron ~ Alive and well

Mortarion ~ Alive and well

Magnus the red ~ Alive and well

Lorgar ~ Alive and well

Alpharius / Omegon ~ May be dead, may be alive who knows (hopefully alive and loyal)

Nighthaunter ~ Dead - Assasinated

 

Loyalists:

Lion el'johnson ~ Alive and asleep

Guilliman ~ In stasis - Rumored to be recovering

Vulkan ~ Missing

Corax ~ Missing - Eye of terror

Leman Russ ~ Missing

Khan ~ Missing - Webway

Rogal Dorn ~ Dead (and in pieces)

Sanguinius ~ Dead

Ferrus Manus ~ Dead

 

Lost:

Who knows x 2

 

so basically if all primarchs come out for a fight chaos has 6 confirmed hitters with the prospect of Alpahrius / Omegon

while the loyalists have 1 confirmed, 4 missing and one possible

 

i would like to note however the luther is one hardcore.... surviving 10,000 years is no small feat...

 

... and it sure would be exciting to find out the lion really was undecided about which side to choose and the dark angels are descended from traitors.

[Gaius Darius]

We'll never know I dare say, my own personal theory is that since the warp can cast people through time as well as space (see the recent ork codex for a hilarious example) The Marines+Primarch were, a short while into the great crusade either sent far into the future, or far into the past.

 

Into the future leads to an inevitable here comes the cavalry just as terra is besieged again at some point.

Ino the past? allies of the old ones or eldar perhaps? Protectors of the Emperor, and the guys that gave the emperor the primarch idea in the first place? Maybe these fellas later became the Adeptus Custodes...