Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Khan's Riders are a reference to the White Scarsm as their Primarch is Jaghatai Khan. Before the Codex Astartes was forced on the SM legions, the White Scars were as wild as the Sons of Russ, the only major difference being the preference for mounted combat (space marine bikes)...while they are still pretty nuts, they lost alot of their craze (IMO) with the adoption of the C.A. wolf lord kieran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
werewolf_nr Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 As I recall, Games Workshop said that they had no intention of revealing the lost legions, specifically because they were intended for DIY legions and chapters. I still like Lastie's (from Warseer) version. One of them had a stoner for a Primarch and was banished. The other was the most badass, but made of women and the rest didn't want to admit they got beaten by a bunch of girls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee265 Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Initially I thought it might bethe white scars but as it doesn't use vague language as a refrence for any other legion why just the white scars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doom13c Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Who are Khan's Riders? (page 35 Fulgrim by Grahm McNeill). It is worded in such a way as to make me think he references one of the lost legions. what are your thoughtd? I believe Kahns Raiders refers to the white scars. Their Primarch being Jagahati Kahn.... who specialise in fast attack, hence "Kahns Raiders" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Hi guys im going to try and correct some mistakes ive seen in previous posts. Here goes: Gil Galed: Im pretty sure Rogal Dorn wasnt killed (or if he was it couldnt be discerned), they only found his hand and the IF adorned it was scripture, in the new BL publication the rise of the tau WARNING SPOILER. It says that he cut off his hand to fake his own death..... (Great story) DracoDarco: Omegon was Alpharius twin, they were one half of a primarch's 'being' the two together making a whole (collectively called Alpharius-Omegon), they wouldnt have been two seperate primarch's of two seperate legions! Alpharius was killed by Guilliman, ill ask one of the UM guys to give me a quote or source on that, i dont have it anywhere yet. In a recent interview with a GW top brass, it was discussed that BL publications are not necessarliy canon, they are only meant as an interesting story. Although i think the HH writers do use published material as sources for thier books, so they should be OK as long as they are not contradicted elsewhere! The grey knights were formed after the HH and after the Emperors interment, it is suggested in the deamonhunter codex that they come directly from the emperors genetic code (which would explain why none have ever turned renegade and why all are psykers to some degree). It was argued in this thread that this was impossible because the Emperor had no geneseed, i would suggest that it was no different than the process used to cultivate space marines from the genetic material left behind from thier Primarch's (ive never read any evidence to suggest they have geneseeds either), either way the genetic material used to create SM's is most likely blood or tissue, as they werent there at the time! It has been stated that 20 legions existed, this is pretty simple to explain as the Emperor created the legions before he set off for the GC, however ive not come across definative sources or qoutes to suggest the primarches were found..... Weve had some good explanations here already but i wanna throw my own in: As far as i know (please feel free to contradict me, i wont cry till i get home...honest) the warp affects how time works, so what if these missing Primarch's were sent forward or back in time, In the HH books it shows Horus hitting the XI capsule and seeing the "glory that will never come to pass", this could mean has no future (was sent back in time). In this case you could only guess what historical/mythical figure the primarch could have been: Achilles, Hercules, Thor, The first emperor of China, Alexander the great My personal favourite....Merlin as he had the power to turn Arthur invisible, or maybe it was Arthur and the power of invisibilty was his all along! Anyway getting a little carried away.... Its also possible that the missing Primarch's could turn up in the near future, possibly when the others will return for the grand final battle...who knows! And to explain the statues of these Primarch's, its entirelly possible the Emperor had visions of his sons and carved the statues himself, we know that the Primarch's were fond of sculpting and art (either Horus or Fulgrim i cant remember, was very skilled). Also i found this on lexicanum with reference to Chapter approved 2001. The Valedictors were originally a First Founding Legion which saw action on the Eastern Fringe against Orks, Eldar, and traitors during the Horus Heresy. They were described in detail in two Epic articles in White Dwarf magazines 126 and 136, circa 1990-91. The status of the Valedictors changed in White Dwarf 235, where they are said to be of a "later founding," (post-Second Founding). Therefore, in the most recent canon literature, the Valedictors are no longer a First Founding Legion. The Iron hearts Primarch Rubineck was explained by GW to be a mistake it was meant to read chapter master. But i had found another potential unnamed Primarch when researching UM sucsessors, i cant remember the name of the chapter but the Primarch wrote on a parchment before heading for battle never to return. (will post if i find it again) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaon21 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 from what i remember from back in the days of second ed before they messed with the fluff was that the WHFB world was in the center of the Eye of Terror and it was the homeworld for the Old Ones and the races they created (ie eldar orks etc) were grown their before being spread out across the universe to fight the necrons and c'tan and it was the Slaan and High Elves who keep Chaos from over running the planet, In regards to the 5th Chaos God he still exists in the fluff in a sense and he's in Mordhiem, the comet that fell on the city was the 5th Chaos God being cast out when Slaanesh was born through the Fall of the Eldar and Slaanesh replaced said God within the pantheon of the chaos as for the missing legions.. Sigmar as a primarch is always an interesting one, we must remember that in older editions of Warhammer you could have your amazonian's ( they live in Lustria) equipped with Bolt Pistols and Needle Pistols etc that they had "acquired" from the Lizardmen and regiments of Chaos Warriors could be armed with Boltguns and as previously mentioned the dubiously described magic items from the Albion campaign were essentially power fists/power Armour etc (however to me that just reeks of Gav Thorpe running out of ideas on how to finish a global campaign....again, if you don't believe me just read the story that ended the Storm of Chaos campaign, how could Grimgor beat Archaon and the fact that Valten was essentially Sigmar MK2 and never actually did anything other than get beat up by Archaon oh and walk to Middenhiem with his shiny toys the dwarves and the elves gave him, it still hurts to this day.....) the legions are another one of those mysteries i would like them to be named and have fluff written for them to add some completeness to the 40k universe, however from a games design perspective are they really needed? No also if you take the current 40k background from the latest rulebook we are nearing the end of the 40k universe as we know it with the light of the astronomicon failing and the Imperium crumbling and just barely holding its own against all of the enemies it has managed to gather for itself. Spolier Alert *fairly ye be warned* Also if you take into account Legion, as the Cabal predicted the universe would be plunged into 10,000 years of warfare before something happens (i cant remember what its been a long time since i read that one) so unless Games Workshop are intending on doing something alot like White Wolf when they ended the old World of Darkness setting (Vamp: Masquerade, Hunter, Mage the Ascension etc etc etc) and had the so called Cains second coming etc etc etc and the whole dynamic of that game world changed completely, unless workshop do something like this which if you look at the current background it could be hinted at, we will never know as the WH40k universe will never change from the current state of perpetual warfare that it is currently in. thats my 2 cents anyway what do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Sigmar as a primarch GW have officially stated now that the two gaming systems of Fantasy and 40k are completely separate with no connection whatsoever between the two. Originally there was a lot of speculation but as a result of their statement it is now sadly no more. I do agree though that I can't see GW changing their formula for perpetual warfare with the IoM on the brink of destruction. There are hints and rumours abound that the 'end of times' is coming when some of the primarchs will return, the Emperor will be reborn etc etc and while all that sounds awesome I don't see it happening for a long time, if ever. Maybe by the release of 8th or 9th edition rules! lol <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 GW have officially stated now that the two gaming systems of Fantasy and 40k are completely separate with no connection whatsoever between the two. Originally there was a lot of speculation but as a result of their statement it is now sadly no more. Sigmar... Had arrival hailed by a comet... Had stength many times that of a normal man (taking on an orc warlord in brute stength etc.).. United the warring factions of mankind.. ;) (Yes I know the new Sigmar books totally ruin this, but why let facts get in the way of a cool story? :huh: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaon21 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 QUOTE (Archaon21 @ Nov 12 2008, 12:17 PM) * Sigmar as a primarch GW have officially stated now that the two gaming systems of Fantasy and 40k are completely separate with no connection whatsoever between the two. Originally there was a lot of speculation but as a result of their statement it is now sadly no more. i know this, however in regards to the overall story i was merely stating what the old fluff said in regards to everything said so far, its a shame really that they kept them separate as with them both being in the same place it allowed for some overall continuity with things like the old ones etc (and for any of you really old ones anyone remember the space slaan?) also i your quote was something that i worded wrongly i have never agreed that sigmar is a primarch, i think Valten completely throws that one out the window for good, which is nice really, i don't think their needs to be someone like that in the fantasy universe (well not a primarch anyway) and i agree with most others that Sigmar was just a really really really hard bloke with a massive hammer and a loincloth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moranimal Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 It has been stated that 20 legions existed, this is pretty simple to explain as the Emperor created the legions before he set off for the GC, however ive not come across definative sources or qoutes to suggest the primarches were found.....Weve had some good explanations here already but i wanna throw my own in: Read the Lightning Tower. There you will find proof from Rogal Dorn himself that all twenty legions existed and that all twenty Primarchs had been found. (Obviously this means that Dorn was apparently unaware of the twin Primarchs in the Alpha Legion.) As to why the II and XI Legions no longer exist, it is only hinted at, and you can draw your own conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 I finally found the research where the Roman Emperor Augusts stopped using 3 legion's number due to their complete annihilation by the Germanic tribes under Arminius: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the...orest#Aftermath While the Romans stopped using all three legions numbers, rather than the Emperor only "losing" 2 legions. maybe GW found 18 usable Legions better than 17. wolf lord kieran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 I always figured that the reason behind the two 'missing' legions was because: 1) It added a cool element of mystery 2) It fuels debate and questioning such as what is taking place now 3) But mainly it allows people to create their own 1st founding legion fluff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp Angel Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 The two missing primarchs are Juan Valdez of the Coffee Banditos and Flavarius Flavius of the Public Threat. They were originally discovered by the Emperor on old Terra, when, as young men, they tried to steal the tracks on his personal land raider. Apprehended by the Emperor, they were sent to join the other Primarchs to be educated in the ways of the Imperium at Warhammer High, in Beverly Hills. Zip Code 90210, of course. Warhammer 90210, The Series. Coming soon to a forum near you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Read the Lightning Tower. There you will find proof from Rogal Dorn himself that all twenty legions existed and that all twenty Primarchs had been found. (Obviously this means that Dorn was apparently unaware of the twin Primarchs in the Alpha Legion.) As to why the II and XI Legions no longer exist, it is only hinted at, and you can draw your own conclusions. I am familiar with the passage but it is quite ambiguous, it definately shows that their were statues of the 20 primarches and that Dorn was familiar with those statues but as i also said in my post, it would be quite easy for the Emperor to sculpt these statues from visions he had, it doesnt necessarily mean they were found! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moranimal Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 I am familiar with the passage but it is quite ambiguous, it definately shows that their were statues of the 20 primarches and that Dorn was familiar with those statues but as i also said in my post, it would be quite easy for the Emperor to sculpt these statues from visions he had, it doesnt necessarily mean they were found! You'll find in another thread on this subject - buried somewhere in the B&C archives - that it was said that all twenty legions took part in the Great Crusade along with where it came from. (I forget now, it's been a while.) Therefore, the Primarchs of the II and XI Legions were found and their legions established. Why they were banished and their history stricken from the historical Imperial records, we'll likely never know. Probably because their rebellion failed and they were destroyed utterly. Since obviously the Horus Heresy is still ongoing, and the nine traitor legions still exist in one form or another (more like renegade warbands, except for the BL), there is no real point in erasing their history. But that part is conjecture on my part. Edit: Corrected grammar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Again i disagree, just because the 20 legions took part doesnt necessarily mean they were led by thier primarches. Unless of course someone can indicate direct quotes to counter this!!! Most of what people say is conjecture they add 2 and 2 together and get 5, we all know the story of how the primarches got lost, but where people get mixed up is that the emperor created all 20 legions before he left on his great crusade using left over genetic material from the primarches, he didnt create them after their primarches were discovered. So of course they would have played a part in the GC, there could be so many theories as to why they no longer exist. The primarches could have died or were never found so the Emperor disbanded the 2 legions, folding them into the new "codex" system created by Roboute Guilliman, this could also explain why there are so many chapters with unknown heritage. As i said with the Emperor being 'all powerful' its possible he knew what his sons looked like and was able to carve the statues of them, of course this wouldnt explain why they were taken down, but i dont pretend to know the truth, im just trying to prevent others from kidding themselves that they do! GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarpedon Disciple Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 I haven't posted here yet but reading what everyone wrote i thought i might add a though no one has seem to bought up yet. Reading the HH the Emperor spends his whole time trying to convince all that there is no god. After reading the HH you realize that the Empire of Man had become everything the Emperor didn't want. What if the two missing Primarchs stood with what the Emperor wanted and turned from the path all others where following to remain true to the Emperor. This either means that there brothers had them hidden so they would not be hunted down or that they had help from somewhere else to have themselves hidden. Just a side thought... :nuke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrvat Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 Again i disagree, just because the 20 legions took part doesnt necessarily mean they were led by thier primarches.Unless of course someone can indicate direct quotes to counter this!!! Most of what people say is conjecture they add 2 and 2 together and get 5, we all know the story of how the primarches got lost, but where people get mixed up is that the emperor created all 20 legions before he left on his great crusade using left over genetic material from the primarches, he didnt create them after their primarches were discovered. So of course they would have played a part in the GC, there could be so many theories as to why they no longer exist. The primarches could have died or were never found so the Emperor disbanded the 2 legions, folding them into the new "codex" system created by Roboute Guilliman, this could also explain why there are so many chapters with unknown heritage. As i said with the Emperor being 'all powerful' its possible he knew what his sons looked like and was able to carve the statues of them, of course this wouldnt explain why they were taken down, but i dont pretend to know the truth, im just trying to prevent others from kidding themselves that they do! GC08 ... Each Legion was led by its own Primarch, ... Cheers Hrvat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 Each Legion was led by its own Primarch, ... Cool, have you got the rest of that passage it may help clear up some questions. i.e Was it an ambiguous statement just showing that each legion had a primarch, or does it simply imply there are 18 legions each led by their primarches? Possibly as an intro to space marines. (most noobs dont know about the missing primarches) Thanks Gc08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyIvan Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 Sigmar has every indication of being a Primarch (even being born to a human woman doesn't change that) and the WFB world is CLEARLY very closely tied to the 40k world and is most likely a planet trapped in a Warp storm pocket isolated and forgotten by the galaxy at large. No. Just No. Being a Primarch and being born of a human woman are *mutually exclusive conditions*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retmonster Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 just going to clear a few things up, 1. the lion isnt inside the rock, he was lost, just dissapeared, its luther, who is in a stasis field at the center of the rock being tortured and interogatted ever day. its in the new DA codex 2. my therory (only a few people will get this, people in the UK mainly) the information about the lost primarchs, was on a memory coil and got left on a train! only the lost and found man at the train station (and the emperor) know the truth now..... ;) but seriously i think the "holding off the nids" idea is good or..... they are on a top secret mission inside the warp and webways, trying to kill trators and return the missing primarchs, corax, vulkan, kahn, etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warforger Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 Well I would like to point out, that if they were wiped out that the Imperuim would have had at least some record of them, but none, none at all, I mean a destruction of a legion should be a milestone in the Imperuim's history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 1. the lion isnt inside the rock, he was lost, just dissapeared, its luther, who is in a stasis field at the center of the rock being tortured and interogatted ever day. its in the new DA codex Wrong. The Lion is inside the Rock, the DA just don't know it. They do know about Luther. Check your codex, or the DA IA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 Check this out for info on the Lion http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lion_El%27..._Fate_of_Jonson He is indeed on/in the rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retmonster Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 1. the lion isnt inside the rock, he was lost, just dissapeared, its luther, who is in a stasis field at the center of the rock being tortured and interogatted ever day. its in the new DA codex Wrong. The Lion is inside the Rock, the DA just don't know it. They do know about Luther. Check your codex, or the DA IA. no you are wrong, i just checked it and it says that after the battle when they found luther, he was saying "the primarch had been carried away, but would on day return to forgive the terrible sins he and his bretheren had commited" pg 9 of the DA codex on pg 9 it also says "Of the mighty primarch, lion el' jonson, there was no sign. so once again, it is luther not lion in the rock, and only the inner circle and the high chaplins, and limbrarian know about him.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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