"Count As" Chaos Legions

[Dammeron]

Though I dislike it immensely, I've been pondering how those who play specific chaos legions might conceivably use the current GW fallback of "Count As" to create an army list from the current codex that is at once functionable and characterful. Here's what I've come up with:

 

 

1. The Word Bearers:

 

- Noise Marines could be modelled as vox-bearing, scripture waving dark evangelists screeching a non-stip litany to the dark forces of chaos.

- The Icon of Tzeentch could be used for units to represent some measure of divine protection they recieve as a result of their faith.

- Khorne Berserkers could easily be adapted to represent frothing fanatics or dark crusaders, intent on slaughtering the enemy for failing to follow the path to righteousness.

- All vehicles that have the option should ideally be upgraded with Dirge Casters.

- Plague Marines could be represented by those who have taken to ritually mutilating themselves in the name of their faith, or that are so rabidly fanatical in their service to chaos little short of a direct las-cannon blast can put them down.

 

2. The Night Lords:

 

- The Icon of Tzeentch could be used to represent the fact that the Night Lord's strike from the shadows, the extra protection it provides simulating the pall of terror and darkness they typically conduct their assaults beneath. The Icon of Slaanesh could also represent the demoralisation they inflict upon their opponents before attacking.

- Khorne Berserkers could represent an assassin-like cult within the Night Lords which specialises in stalking their prey and butchering them mercilessly in close combat.

- Noise Marines could be adapted to represent those Night Lord's who thrive on the dread and terror fo their prey, their armour and weapons adapted (or mutated) to produce hideous shrieks and howls that can even have a physically (as well as psychologically) damaging effect at certain ranges.

 

3. The Iron Warriors:

 

- The Icons of Tzeentch or Nurgle could represent the Iron Warrior's tenacity, hardiness and iron-resolve in combat. Alternatively, you could model Iron Warriors whose armour has fused to their flesh or even those who are infected with a mutation of the same techno-virus that created the Obliterators to warrant the in-game effects of these marks.

- Plague Marines could be nascent Obliterators, not yet quite at the stage where they can mould weapons from their bodies, but so festooned with techno-organic bits and pieces they are incredibly hard to actually kill. The same could also be applied to Thousand Sons or Noise Marines, both of whom may be represented by Iron Warriors whose bodies have essentially become mounts for experimental long range weaponry, or have been infected with a particular strain of the techno-virus that causes their bodies to erupt with flame and plasma spewing orifices etc.

- Khorne Berserkers could be specially adpated or doctored Iron Warriors specifically equipped for close-quarters sieges. They could even be techno-organic murder machines whose limbs have been replaced by a variety of whirring blades, saws, scythes, etc.

 

4. The Alpha Legion:

 

- Trickiest of the lot to represent under the current codex. Like the Night Lords, the icons of Tzeentch and Slaanesh could be utilised to represent their subtlety and guile on the battlefield, and their penchant for confusing and demoralising the enemy before any actual combat takes place.

- Lesser Daemons could perhaps be used to represent guerilla insurgents or cultists who emerge from pre-arranged hiding places on the battlefield in response to a particular instruction. It's far from perfect (their stats and invulnerable saves are somewhat problematic), but it's something.

- Noise Marines could be fielded as a unit of specialist operatives whose armour and weaponry has been adapted to play a non-stop dirge of prayers, battle cries, Imperial hymns, animal shrieks etc in order to confuse and demoralise the enemy.

 

5. The Emperors Children.

 

- Plague Marines could easily represent Cenobite-like Slaanesh worshippers who have become addicted to extreme agony. They could be quite characterfully modelled after the cenobites in Clive Barker's Hellraiser films, i.e. creatures that have taken to mutilating, warping and corrupting their own flesh.

- Khorne Berserkers could represent Slaanesh worshippers who crave the constant noise, flow and stimulation of combat, or drug fuelled lunatics who are barely cogniscant of their actions.

 

6. World Eaters:

 

- Noise Marines or Thousand Sons could represent extremely niche cults within the legion who are dedicated to Khorne in his aspect as the Master of War in all its disciplines, including that of long range combat.

- Plague Marines could be vampiric, leech like warriors bloated on the blood of their foes.

 

7. Death Guard:

 

- Khorne Berserkers could be warriors infected with a very particular rabidity that makes them fevered and lunatic in combat.

- Noise Marines and Thousand Sons could be adapted to represent followers of Nurgle who spray the battlefield with great gouts of pus, infected blood and pestilential fluid.

 

8. Thousand Sons:

 

- Noise Marines could be adapted to represent minor sorcerers within the Thousand Sons ranks who support their more learned allies with blasts of sorcerous fire.

[AsmodeusX]

I like this idea much more than using the Imperial Marine codex.

 

I'm a Chaos Player myself. Have been for a long time and I do not support the players wanting to do Loyalists "counts as" Chaos lists. That's pure absurdity.

 

Just look at it this way. The new marine codex is pretty awesome. They've promised traitor legion codices. Think how much more awesome the newer ones will be.

 

Unfortunately, we'll probably have to wait until 6th ed to get those codices.

 

/anquish

[Tchort]

While your efforts are admirable, I can't help but feel how sad things have become. A lot of the items you list are stretches at best, with nothing to back it up in the Legion's corresponding background.

 

I also find it the height of hypocrisy that anyone would look down on using the SM codex to represent their Chaos forces. That's the whole point of "Count as". For example, what works better for Alpha Legion to represent Cultists... Lesser Daemons or Scouts? I know which one I'd choose.

[AsmodeusX]

I also find it the height of hypocrisy that anyone would look down on using the SM codex to represent their Chaos forces. That's the whole point of "Count as". For example, what works better for Alpha Legion to represent Cultists... Lesser Daemons or Scouts? I know which one I'd choose.

 

*sigh* Tchort, that comment seriously made me think. I think you're right. I like the purism of the idea, but it still doesn't reflect well at all.

[Jarulek]

Aren't we going a little overboard here guys? I mean, I hate the current dex too, but I have given up on this nagging. Using count-as just doesn't give me the satisfaction somehow.

[Rain]

I have already been using "Siege Breakers" as counts as Berzerkers. I use zerk bodies with CSM heads or zerk heads with the bunny ears chopped off and shaved off all khorne symbols freehanding on undivided stars where they used to be. I think it fits the fluff as the IW IA states that when a breach must be taken the IW fight with the "cold ferocity of World Eaters". That said, I find the justification for the other counts as cult troops is shaky at best and so stay away.

[Seth the Dark]

While your efforts are admirable, I can't help but feel how sad things have become. A lot of the items you list are stretches at best, with nothing to back it up in the Legion's corresponding background.

 

I also find it the height of hypocrisy that anyone would look down on using the SM codex to represent their Chaos forces. That's the whole point of "Count as". For example, what works better for Alpha Legion to represent Cultists... Lesser Daemons or Scouts? I know which one I'd choose.

 

How is it the height of hypocrisy? People using the SM codex for Chaos legions are out to get the cool new stuff only available to Loyalists. Some of the previous suggestions are strectching it a bit but its a lot better than using a completely different codex.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Are they all using that Codex to get 'lol shiny new toys yay!' or are there some among them who want to represent their beloved Legion a little better than the 4.0 Chaos 'dex?

[Seth the Dark]

I see your point but how many people are interested in fluff and not just out for an advantage?

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

The answer to that question depends on how cynical/skeptical you are and what your personal leanings are, so I can't answer it for you.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I see your point but how many people are interested in fluff and not just out for an advantage?

People using the SM codex for Chaos legions are out to get the cool new stuff only available to Loyalists.

 

Well I for one am partly offended by the yet-again classification of me as a power-gaming, whining jerk just because I want rules to better suit my army. I'm sorry then if the Chaos codex doesn't suit my army at all, and ham-strings the variation I can have. I'm sorry if the Loyalist codex gives the units I can take using the Chaos codex a different name, and provides (shock horror!) some versatility. I'm sorry if not taking any units that were developed post-heresy doesn't rule me out of the "power-gamer" classification.

 

I play my army as it is because of the fluff, and because the loyalist rules match that fluff better than the Chaos codex. So what if the names are different, they still represent the same basic things. Ok, I gain access to Scouts, Storm bolters, drop pods, combat tactics, combat squads and Honour Guard. I also lose access to higher base Leadership, Daemon Princes, Icons, Marks, Cult Units, Obliterators, Daemons, Daemon Weapons, Possessed, cheap Terminators, Defilers, and daemonic possession (note, these are the thigns that my non-Chaos-y Night Lords wouldn't have anyway). Funnily enough, removing those things now gives me the Loyalist list if it had followed the simplification scheme, and without several other units the Loyalists have.

 

So no, I'm not playing Loyalists to get all the shiny things. I'm not taking any of your Land Raider variants, Land Speeders, Storm Shields, special characters, assault cannon, man-portable plasma cannon, Thunderfire cannon or conversion beamers. I'm using purely what the pre-Heresy Legions would have had. Hell, I'm even not taking any Scout Bikers, just to help differentiate things.

 

 

To actually help with the main post, I'll only be able to help with the Night Lords, as they're the Legion I love the most, but Plague Marines are a hard one for them. Perhaps Night Lords that have glutted themselves on the enemies fear, leeching off the panic and terror?

[the jeske]

and now its only one step to "I want to counts as my chaos army with ork rules because they represent the fresh and mad nurgle culitsts from".

I may understand the HQ , maybe even some of the cult units for some of the legions [like PMs as siege guys for IW] . But explaining why every legion army is in fact BL , that can and should play with all cult units [and after testing you will find out that the best set up is 2lash/pms/zerkers / oblits ] is just stupid .

[Seth the Dark]

First off I'm sorry I offended you but why didnt you use the previous SM codex since it better suits your Chaos army?

[Dammeron]

and now its only one step to "I want to counts as my chaos army with ork rules because they represent the fresh and mad nurgle culitsts from".

I may understand the HQ , maybe even some of the cult units for some of the legions [like PMs as siege guys for IW] . But explaining why every legion army is in fact BL , that can and should play with all cult units [and after testing you will find out that the best set up is 2lash/pms/zerkers / oblits ] is just stupid .

 

Making the best out of a bad situation. As I pointed out in my original post, I don't like it either, but the fact remains that those who play one of the specific traditional Traitor Legions currently have no option but to use "Count As" in one way, shape or form. You either use "Count As" within the constraints of the current Chaos Codex, or you get an army that's bland and massively ineffectual, or you use "Count As" to represent your force via an alternative army list.

[Rain]

I think it's funny when someone decries the use of counts as by casual fluff players claiming that it is bad by making everyone the same as BL and then advocates the use of double lash/plague/zerk/oblit which is a complete mangling of fluff as DPs are too megalomaniacal to "team up" as it were, and even if they did, how exactly would 2 Slaanesh princes convince berzerkers to follow them?

 

Oh and by the way I will continue to use the current Chaos Codex even though I mostly hate it, but I will be happy to play against any chaos player using the new marine codex to represent their undivided legion as I feel their pain at being hard pressed to properly play the army we spent hours and hundreds of dollars on.

[the jeske]

. You either use "Count As" within the constraints of the current Chaos Codex, or you get an army that's bland and massively ineffectual, or you use "Count As" to represent your force via an alternative army list.

ok but why delude yourself that your playing legion X or legion Y , when your playing BL ? The cool factor? It isnt there as both armies will end up the same . To paint the BL in colors of AL ? but you could do that before + its a game outside of tournaments most people ingore how opponents models are painted as long as they are legal .

 

And If you think that taking the "all a happy chaos family army now" will led to more different chaos lists out of the new dex , then I have to disagree with you . In fact the only "different" lists I actually get to play against are from those people who try not to play BL lash/oblits/om/zerker mix .

 

 

On the counts as front . I dont like it because in the end you can take any units and say "Its magic , I dont have to explain anything "[yes it is stolen].

[Lord_Caerolion]

I used the old Chaos codex because of two things, that made my Night Lords actually Night Lords. I had free Night Vision, and could give my guys Daemonic Visage, to represent their terror tactics. Because back in 3.5, you could have a characterful Chaos force without resorting to Marks (and Icons). True, I didn't get the other Chaos stuff, but I had a large variety of Veteran Skills to make up for it. Now I don't have those, and the only thing giving power to the list are the actual Chaos-worship stuff, where the old Codex understood that Chaos Marine is more a general term for Traitor Marine, not necessarily worshipping Chaos.

[vytzka]

Wow, sure, why don't you guys just play double lash/9 obliterators/PM? :P

 

To the OP: great job, while some of the options might require a bit of polishing (mostly for Cult troops here and there, particularly Thousand Sons as they're quite unique - the rest are much more generic) overall I salute your efforts on developing creative solutions instead of just whining about GW. Apparently it's a pretty thankless job though, but don't let that put you down.

[Dammeron]

. You either use "Count As" within the constraints of the current Chaos Codex, or you get an army that's bland and massively ineffectual, or you use "Count As" to represent your force via an alternative army list.

ok but why delude yourself that your playing legion X or legion Y , when your playing BL ? The cool factor? It isnt there as both armies will end up the same . To paint the BL in colors of AL ? but you could do that before + its a game outside of tournaments most people ingore how opponents models are painted as long as they are legal .

 

And If you think that taking the "all a happy chaos family army now" will led to more different chaos lists out of the new dex , then I have to disagree with you . In fact the only "different" lists I actually get to play against are from those people who try not to play BL lash/oblits/om/zerker mix .

 

 

On the counts as front . I dont like it because in the end you can take any units and say "Its magic , I dont have to explain anything "[yes it is stolen].

 

I never said it would lead to different or more charcterful lists, Jeske. I am simply providing a frame of reference via which players of individual legions might tailor their armies in accordance with the new codex 'til something better comes along. That is all.

[DuskRaider]

Well, instead of everyone crying and complaining about the new Chaos Codex (as usual), and crying about using other army's Codices, why don't you just use the 3.5 Ed Codex for friendly games? That way you have a characterful army, and truthfully 3.5 Ed could still be completely viable and probably competitive against the new Codices. I myself will still use the newest stuff GW gives me, for better or worse, and make it work.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Well, instead of everyone crying and complaining about the new Chaos Codex (as usual), and crying about using other army's Codices, why don't you just use the 3.5 Ed Codex for friendly games? That way you have a characterful army, and truthfully 3.5 Ed could still be completely viable and probably competitive against the new Codices. I myself will still use the newest stuff GW gives me, for better or worse, and make it work.

 

Because since it isn't tournament legal its not even friendly game legal in most places. I play at a GW store week one day a week and at an independent retailer another. The GW one definetly wouldn't let me use it. At the other one a couple of the guys might, but in general i couldn't there either.

[Smurfalypse]

Ehh, talked to all my gamer friends and they all agree that it would be ok for me to use the 3.5 CSM codex from time to time provided i didnt use the daemons or the daemon summoning rules from it. Hopefully that will keep my interest in the game long enough to find something else to play with :D

[retlaw83]

I've always had a DIY warband called the Dreadmarines. Under the old codex rules, they were an infantry-heavy force that used the Alpha Legion rules.

 

So that's out the window, so now they tend to use a lot of Khorne berserkers, noise marines and Thousand Sons, and my old lord counts as Abaddon.

 

For the Khorne berserkers, I fluff it out that they're dedicated to Khorne, but they keep their heads. My base color scheme is red gore armor and regal blue shoulders and greeves with metal trim; these guys are bright red armor, regal blue in the old places, and boltgun metal trim. They aren't very ornate and look like they're down for doing business.

 

My noise marines have warlock purple shoulderpads and greeves, and shiny silver trim. I used a lot of parts from the possessed sprue for them, so there's a lot of exposed bone and stuff as well. All the sonic blasters are converted, as are the blastmasters - I made two of each kind of weapon, so each individual squad looks like it's troops are carrying custom-made weapons.

 

For the thousand sons, their fluff is they're a group called the Fusilade. I took the conical bits off the side of Battle for Macragge shield generators and stuck them into the vents on the end of CSM backpacks - these are shield generators that give them the 4+ save. I converted a fusion of bolter casings and Tau weapons (figuring strength 4, AP 3 was a decent parralel to strength 5, AP 4), and gave them red gore main armor while painting a very simple flame effect on the shoulders and greeves. All the metal, including the backpacks and weapons, is gold, fluffwise because it conducts the energy of the invulnerable save shield through it. The power of the force field and how it blocks vision and makes it difficult to move is how I explain difficult terrain checks and reduced attacks in CC.

[Penmarch']

Ehh, talked to all my gamer friends and they all agree that it would be ok for me to use the 3.5 CSM codex from time to time provided i didnt use the daemons or the daemon summoning rules from it. Hopefully that will keep my interest in the game long enough to find something else to play with :)

 

Which somehow proves something...... not nice.....

[Artemis360]

I get what you mean and it sounds like a good idea but like I said to my friend when he wanted to use berzerkers to represent Emperor's Children elite swordsmen cadre (like Lucius' disciples or something), it may work and not be too big a stretch of the imagination but every time you put that unit on the table you're going to have to say to your opponent "these are khorne berzerkers, but, you know, like not. Theyre actually slaaneshi marines that count as khorne berzerkers..." It would just get to me...