"Count As" Chaos Legions

[chillin]

I think brzrkrs in "EC" armies or slanny DP's or sorc's in "WE's" are THE two most rediculeous "counts as" of all, and I don't care what kind of BS spin you try to putt on it.

[Rain]

Any sorc in a WE army is total shenanigans, and it's people like that that make legitimate "counts as" players like Dammeron et al look bad in the eyes of some players. Then again, with the new chaos codex, I have noticed that a lot of players have no idea what the legions are all about as I actually had an argument with a guy that tried to convince me that cults were perfectly fine in an Iron Warriors army from a fluff standpoint because they were "an undivided legion" making an old school IW like myself feel somewhat frustrated as I told him that this was not the case, but since I had neither my old codex nor my IA with me I could not prove it. So sad.

[chillin]

Then again, with the new chaos codex, I have noticed that a lot of players have no idea what the legions are all about

So sad.

 

So true...so sad but so true

[Seahawk]

They're not so much Berzerkers any more so much as highly skilled close combat warriors. There's nothing in the current book that really makes them feel like the angry hot headed, well, BERZERKERS they used to be. Just quality warriors, given the proper name switch, can fit into any martial army.

[Smurfalypse]

This argument ends up in about every post imaginable now-a-days....If you dont like the new rules, use something else and send a letter to J.J. he will most likely respond to you in a timely manner if you are respectful. If you want to play something else, then play something else, if you want to use the old codex use the old codex, if you want to "counts-as" then for nurgles sake counts-as. The idea is to have fun and enjoy what you are doing with your friends ect ;)

 

Some of the more old school people are more frustrated with the lack of fluff or the ditching of fluff that has been around since the beginning, but really all this posting and hijacking threads on here really isnt going to solve anything. Cheers everyone.

[Dammeron]

Any sorc in a WE army is total shenanigans, and it's people like that that make legitimate "counts as" players like Dammeron et al look bad in the eyes of some players. Then again, with the new chaos codex, I have noticed that a lot of players have no idea what the legions are all about as I actually had an argument with a guy that tried to convince me that cults were perfectly fine in an Iron Warriors army from a fluff standpoint because they were "an undivided legion" making an old school IW like myself feel somewhat frustrated as I told him that this was not the case, but since I had neither my old codex nor my IA with me I could not prove it. So sad.

 

To be absolutely 100% fair, I'm actually not a "count as" player; I utterly despise the current chaos codex to such a degree that I now use my own custom codex, that can be found here:

 

Codex: Chaos Space Marines: Latest Version

 

I merely provided the suggestions in my OP for those who wish to continue using the "official" codex to field their traditional Traitor Legion armies.

[Bloodstorm]

Though I dislike it immensely, I've been pondering how those who play specific chaos legions might conceivably use the current GW fallback of "Count As" to create an army list from the current codex that is at once functionable and characterful. Here's what I've come up with:

 

 

1. The Word Bearers:

 

- Noise Marines could be modelled as vox-bearing, scripture waving dark evangelists screeching a non-stip litany to the dark forces of chaos.

- The Icon of Tzeentch could be used for units to represent some measure of divine protection they recieve as a result of their faith.

- Khorne Berserkers could easily be adapted to represent frothing fanatics or dark crusaders, intent on slaughtering the enemy for failing to follow the path to righteousness.

- All vehicles that have the option should ideally be upgraded with Dirge Casters.

- Plague Marines could be represented by those who have taken to ritually mutilating themselves in the name of their faith, or that are so rabidly fanatical in their service to chaos little short of a direct las-cannon blast can put them down.

 

2. The Night Lords:

 

- The Icon of Tzeentch could be used to represent the fact that the Night Lord's strike from the shadows, the extra protection it provides simulating the pall of terror and darkness they typically conduct their assaults beneath. The Icon of Slaanesh could also represent the demoralisation they inflict upon their opponents before attacking.

- Khorne Berserkers could represent an assassin-like cult within the Night Lords which specialises in stalking their prey and butchering them mercilessly in close combat.

- Noise Marines could be adapted to represent those Night Lord's who thrive on the dread and terror fo their prey, their armour and weapons adapted (or mutated) to produce hideous shrieks and howls that can even have a physically (as well as psychologically) damaging effect at certain ranges.

 

3. The Iron Warriors:

 

- The Icons of Tzeentch or Nurgle could represent the Iron Warrior's tenacity, hardiness and iron-resolve in combat. Alternatively, you could model Iron Warriors whose armour has fused to their flesh or even those who are infected with a mutation of the same techno-virus that created the Obliterators to warrant the in-game effects of these marks.

- Plague Marines could be nascent Obliterators, not yet quite at the stage where they can mould weapons from their bodies, but so festooned with techno-organic bits and pieces they are incredibly hard to actually kill. The same could also be applied to Thousand Sons or Noise Marines, both of whom may be represented by Iron Warriors whose bodies have essentially become mounts for experimental long range weaponry, or have been infected with a particular strain of the techno-virus that causes their bodies to erupt with flame and plasma spewing orifices etc.

- Khorne Berserkers could be specially adpated or doctored Iron Warriors specifically equipped for close-quarters sieges. They could even be techno-organic murder machines whose limbs have been replaced by a variety of whirring blades, saws, scythes, etc.

 

4. The Alpha Legion:

 

- Trickiest of the lot to represent under the current codex. Like the Night Lords, the icons of Tzeentch and Slaanesh could be utilised to represent their subtlety and guile on the battlefield, and their penchant for confusing and demoralising the enemy before any actual combat takes place.

- Lesser Daemons could perhaps be used to represent guerilla insurgents or cultists who emerge from pre-arranged hiding places on the battlefield in response to a particular instruction. It's far from perfect (their stats and invulnerable saves are somewhat problematic), but it's something.

- Noise Marines could be fielded as a unit of specialist operatives whose armour and weaponry has been adapted to play a non-stop dirge of prayers, battle cries, Imperial hymns, animal shrieks etc in order to confuse and demoralise the enemy.

 

5. The Emperors Children.

 

- Plague Marines could easily represent Cenobite-like Slaanesh worshippers who have become addicted to extreme agony. They could be quite characterfully modelled after the cenobites in Clive Barker's Hellraiser films, i.e. creatures that have taken to mutilating, warping and corrupting their own flesh.

- Khorne Berserkers could represent Slaanesh worshippers who crave the constant noise, flow and stimulation of combat, or drug fuelled lunatics who are barely cogniscant of their actions.

 

6. World Eaters:

 

- Noise Marines or Thousand Sons could represent extremely niche cults within the legion who are dedicated to Khorne in his aspect as the Master of War in all its disciplines, including that of long range combat.

- Plague Marines could be vampiric, leech like warriors bloated on the blood of their foes.

 

7. Death Guard:

 

- Khorne Berserkers could be warriors infected with a very particular rabidity that makes them fevered and lunatic in combat.

- Noise Marines and Thousand Sons could be adapted to represent followers of Nurgle who spray the battlefield with great gouts of pus, infected blood and pestilential fluid.

 

8. Thousand Sons:

 

- Noise Marines could be adapted to represent minor sorcerers within the Thousand Sons ranks who support their more learned allies with blasts of sorcerous fire.

 

Good post mate, some ideas need more work but its opened a few fluffy ideas for me anyway

[Askari]

Are there any articles that deal with playing an actual undivided list? I mean like one that uses no cult troops and only the chaos glory and undivided icons and items. I would much rather make a workable force without bending fluff and using counts as units than try to justify throwing fluff out the window.

 

I want to make a night lords army but i want to keep it fluffy and not use the SM codex or troops and items devoted to anything but undivided. I figure that with the cheaper units I can make a few larger squads to do more damage and use only lightning claws or the undivided daemon weapon on my Lord (i hate daemon princes as a unit with a passion as they lack the flavor of an outcast ruthlessly pursuing a goal since they have already achived daemonhood.) I was thinking of having a lord with a daemon weapon and another lord with lightning claws that would be sort of like a chaplian except he preachings to the marines the battle philosophy of Night haunter and the importance of not falling slave to the emperor or the chaos gods. i might use a sorceror with warp time every now and then since sorcerors don't have to be totally devoted to chaos but I don't want to take him as my main HQ because I believe a lord should be the leader.

[ant7]

My two cents on the whole thing is this, I constantly see CSM players complaining about the new 'dex and how it is too generic and that may be true. Personally I like it as I don't really care about the legion armies, but that is just me. Anyway, what I can't understand is this, when someone like Dammeron comes up with some nifty ideas on "counts as" using the CSM codex he gets shot down as stretching things too far. But then it is all right to use the SM codex to stretch things. No matter how you look at the SM codex you can't explainn ATSKNF, that is what makes them loyalist, their devotion and unwavering faith in the Imperial dogma. When I see arguements about using the new SM codex and then arguements against counting as with our actual CSM codex, well I 'm sorry but it just smacks of "Gimme the new goodies."

Wouldn't you feel better about the game when you beat the shiny new marines using the CSM codex anyway?

AGain though this is just my two cents and I am sure I won't change any minds.

[Lord_Caerolion]

But where is it ever stated that ATSKNF can only represent unwavering faith in the Emperor? Rules can have the same game effect, but different ways of being implemented fluffwise. I can perfectly imagine Chaos Marines that aren't mindlessly following the directions and orders of their God to fight in a disciplined enough way to justify ATSKNF.

[Tchort]

But then it is all right to use the SM codex to stretch things. No matter how you look at the SM codex you can't explainn ATSKNF, that is what makes them loyalist, their devotion and unwavering faith in the Imperial dogma.

 

Sorry, but there is nothing "count as" can't explain. It's only a matter of how well it does it.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

ATSKNF is ridiculously easy to explain. Actually, the really difficult thing to explain is why chaos marines DON'T have ATSKNF. The emperor decreed that all space marines would know no fear long before he was regarded as a god. Presumably back durring the crusade all the legions knew no fear. So the real question is why do the current chaos marines and renegades not have the same special rule. The cult marines from the original legion all have fearless which makes perfect sense. So why don't the regular vanilla marines, terminators, chosen, sorcerers etc have ATSKNF?

[the jeske]

because at the back of the head of each ones head . there is a guy in golden armor with a stearn look , eyeing the mess they did with a rolled up newspaper in one hand saying :

"Bad spacemarine , bad " . and thats why they run .

[Jarulek]

I mostly agree with Ant7. It seems people are taking more and more ridiculous count-as justifications. It began with cult-troop counting as marines with bionics or experimental weapons and such. Now it's the marine dex. Tomorrow they'll invent count-as for weapons like assault cannons, arguing that Termis with assault cannons could be like obliterators etc. etc. Seriously people, if you like the SM dex so much do what I do, start a marine army. As a "dex-whiner" I'm starting to get really annoyed by this.

 

edit:

Thing I don't agree with is the ATSKNF not being representable. Chaos Marines have a standard Ld10, so there shouldn't be any difference.

[chillin]

I apprechate that Dammeron put time and wk into this. But simply adding all cult troops and marks to every legion, including the undivided ones is just not something I can get behind.

[Zealot Of Chaos]

chaos don't get atsknf because they know whats out there, the space marines are ignorant to the true evils of the warp

 

and Dammeron could you update yur dex a bit please :) less emphasis on VP, outnumbering in combat, 4th ed things that got misplaced when 5th came along basically, and also a way for Iron Warriors to be able to take basilisks again or Peturabo will curse every IW list made from it, whilst I admit its far better than anything I could make, I'm afraid its accumulated a little dust

[Drudge Dreadnought]

chaos don't get atsknf because they know whats out there, the space marines are ignorant to the true evils of the warp

 

Thats even more reason for them not to be afraid of a bit of fighting.

[Primarch Naogedd]

If a Chaos Marine goes through the most horrible experiences imaginable, he'll either turn into a gibbering wreck or be so hardened that nothing will scare him. Since we have no gibbering wrecks in our army lists (except maybe the Spawn), it seems that he should either be fearless, or be Ld10+ATSKNF.

 

I personally think that you would be braver having faced the horrors of the Warp than not knowing about them. Especially since they are only AP4. <_<

[chillin]

Ld 10 with a reroll, that's not knowing much fear if you ask me.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, until the banner falls at least, then the fear sets in. Our flag! It's touched the ground! What can we do?!?

 

But yes, there's a difference between taking the Marine codex, within limitations, and taking stuff from within your codex outside of fluff limitations. Khorne never uses Sorcerors, whatsoever. He used to use Sorcerors, but they were only really allowed to dispel enemy spells, and would get severly punished for casting a spell. Since Chaos has no Psychic Hood equivalent, there's no reason to take Sorcerors.

Other than that, I think most of the suggestions Dammeron made are ok.

[Askari]

The reason chaos doesn't have ATSKNF is because they have no sense of brotherhood and are all in it for selfish gain. Everyone that hasn't became a mindless cult troop is thinking about numero uno and they don't want to die because unlike the Loyalist marines who look forward to a heroic death and spending an eternity with the emperor the chaos marines look forward only to daemonhood or damnation.

 

If you knew you would go to hell if you died you wouldn't have the most courageous outlook. They may be disciplined but they aren't going to give up their chance at daemonhood just to take a bullet for their lord. ATSKNF doesn't represent fearlessness it represents adherence to the chapter's doctrine and the selfless and courageous outlook of the loylist marines. Chaos space marines aren't brave because they know that bravery doesn't pay off. They're just not afraid of anything that's why they have lead:10.

 

I understand what you guys are trying to do with counts as but to me it seems like taking a themed list means taking a themed list. You take the theme because you are willing to put up with the advantages and disadvantages of the theme you chose. Khorne shouldn't have sorcerors and slaanesh shouldn't have berzerkers. when you take a plague marine you aren't taking an extremely mutated servant of tzeentch that can't feel pain you're taking a plague marine. that's the problem i have with counts as people are throwing their theme out of the window and then justifying it.

 

I think we should be focusing more on how to win with themed lists than how to bend to the urge to take a unit just for its advantages.

[Lord_Caerolion]

And what about those Marines that will do anything to see the hated Imperium burn? Not all Chaos Marines are selfish, some do have goals. The Word Bearers want to see the Imperiums False Messiah cast down like the worthless wretch he is. The (Puritan) Night Lords fight to see the great betrayal repaid.

 

And no, Slaanesh shouldn't get Berzerkers. They could, however, have warriors that have excessively focussed on swordfighting for the last few millenia, bringing their skill up to post-Marine levels, and the rules for Berzerkers match that perfectly. They could have drug-crazed warriors, unable to truly comprehend what's going on around them due to the drug-haze, only hacking and being hacked at, to bring more glorious sensation to Slaanesh. They could have proto-Spawn Marines, unable to truly feel anything anymore, as their bodies have been so tortured in their quest for more sensation that they've been left as barely recognizable masses of flesh, that still fight in the chance of getting one more brief glimpse of paradise before Slaanesh spurns them completely.

 

You don't really seem to understand the concept of Counts As. All of those things I just suggested would be perfectly suitable as a different Marine Cult dedicated to Slaanesh. After all, Slaanesh is supposed to embody all sensation, so why should Marines that turn exclusively to Slaanesh spurn all senses other than sound? That seems quite offensive to Slaanesh. Surely they'd try to indulge all the senses? Noise Marines are sound (obviously), Plague Marines (proto-Spawn) and Berzerkers represent touch, and perhaps taste in the case of berzerkers. Rubrics can represent sight, as they are so dazzled by everything around them that they move slower, as they're continually distracted by the sight of an explosion, watching the graceful dance of bodies tossed through the air, the patterns the blood makes as it explodes from the body, and need a Sorceror to tempt them in the right direction by subtly altering their perception, to make a particular direction seem more interesting, and therefore make them want to move towards it. The invulnerable save is yet again a total lack of sensation, the drive to witness more and more beauty pulling them onwards even when their body is a total wreck.

Summary: Slaanesh should not be restrictive about what can represent it. Everything in the Chaos codex can be given a great alternative explanation. Sonic weapons have been toned down, but the chance to focus on other Cults has expanded.

[Rain]

The problem with the CSM are too selfish to have ATSKNF argument is that if a CSM runs I really doubt his fate at the hands of his lord or daemon prince is going to be very pretty. Point being, he is probably better off staying and punching a carnifex than he is running and then facing his probably less than sympathetic overlords. Honestly I think CSM should have ATSKNF as long as there is a living Chaos HQ on the table who is assumed to punish deserters after the battle, and in the event of his death all bets are off and the CSM lose ATSKNF.

[Dammeron]

In the latest incarnation of my home grown codex, all Traitor Marines are Fearless as standard, whereas Renegade chaos space marines are somewhat more fickle and self serving, so function just as chaos space marines do in the current official codex.

[chillin]

You don't really seem to understand the concept of Counts As.

 

I don't think anyone here fails to understand the concept of "counts as". It's just that many people see it for what it is, often a lame attempt to call an unfluffy army fluffy.