Assassins under the new Codex?

[tksolway]

are they worth it?

[SJumppanen]

are they worth it?

Under new rules you mean? I'd say that Calidus is still good. I haven't tried others yet.

[Leethal]

Vindicare's pretty fun.

 

The only time I ever killed Abbadon on turn 2. <_<

[Narthecium]

How do the changes effect the assassins? I'm curious as to how it's effected particularly the Vindicare, as he's my favorite. <_<

[Leethal]

Not much difference. Still mean. Just......not as points efficient.

[Obscura]

I have a soft spot for the Vindicare , though lately I've seen better usage for the points that he takes.

[mughi3]

assassins are still a blast to play with. i have an eversore, vindicare and culexus. even though i really like what the vindicare can do, man do i roll lots of 1s to hit with him :)

 

The only real big change i have seen is the change to pistol rules. they loose a little of thier special shooting ability, but not a major loss.

[Toogeloo]

I would love to put the Vindicare next to Telion and have them compete with each other for the most impressive kills.

[tksolway]

I was looking at them, I just played a game with a set of general assassins, and they were just gold, they single handedly tied up two squads for 2 turns each, and did some serious damage to them as well. Totally worth it. I'm tempted to take 6 of them with my next 1700 point army. The Everasore looks good, but I don't know if he's worth 95 points.

[the jeske]

with counter attack , no killzones , cover everywhere ? well not worth the pts cost.

[Coppella]

Also, the fact that they don't have grenades, if they need to make a difficult terrain check at all to charge, than they swing last. Serious draw back to their killing power.

Vindicare didn't really get shut down too much, but since his pistol is only 1 shot now, there is no reason to have him close to the action.

Death-cult assassins, well, free kill points for your opponent. Each 1 of them being a KP each, really sucks.

As mentioned, everyone having counter attack pile in moves certainly takes away from their usefulness.

[number6]

All the assassins took a hit in the effectiveness/efficiency dept under the new game climate created by the 5th edition rules. None of them can clear a kill zone, which means they suffer many more return attacks than before. Defender countercharge means many more models will have chances to swing in combat than ever before. Being unable to consolidate into new combats means that even if, against all odds, your assassin manages to win a combat and run off the defenders, it will be exposed for a turn.

 

True line of sight means it's much more difficult to actually hide now, too, exposing all of the assassins to more shots of opportunity against them.

 

That said, Callidus took the smallest hit. A Word In Your Ear still works, and works beautifully. And Polymorphine ensures that she shows up exactly where you want her, so you are guaranteed at least one strike with her.

 

The Eversor is second best. But being all about close combat, you can't expect him to survive most assaults, unless you send him against weak targets unworthy of his attention to begin with. It's harder to get him there safely nowadays. Outflanking is an excellent choice to help mitigate that. That and his superior charge rules are all that saves him. I continue to have decent success with him, though nowhere near what I was used to under 4th edition.

 

Provided you keep the Culexus out of combat, his LD abilities are actually of greater utility in 5th edition than they were under 4th edition. I need to try this guy out in a serious way sometime, but he's got more potential now than ever. The downside is that he's easy to spot, he's slow, and all his abilities are short-ranged. And he's a pushover in close combat.

 

Of the Officio Assassinorum operatives, the Vindicare took the biggest hit. Already limited to just under 3 wounds per game in 4th edition, that average is down to about 2 per game thanks to cover saves. Virtually every target he aims at will benefit from 5+ cover. Already dependent on strokes of good fortune to kill when you need it, he's even less dependable than before. Always the least effective assassin, he's now virtually worthless. The sniper is a fantastic concept that deserves a much better treatment than the Vindicare gives it.

 

I can no longer recommend Death Cult Assassins. You always had to take numbers of them for effectiveness, and that hasn't changed. But now there are Kill Points to worry about. Combine KPs with the increased danger and decreased effectiveness in close combat for DCAs and, well, they're more bother than they're worth. There are better places to put your points these days.

[tksolway]

In my game, I used three death cult assassins, I outflanked with them, and as I said they tied up two squads for two turns, allowing my GKs to dakka two more squads to death. We were playng apocalypse, and even though 2 of the 3 Assassins died I did win. I think I will try them at a higher level as well, I don't think I will take six of them, but I will try three of them.

[Red Lost Soldier]

I would love to put the Vindicare next to Telion and have them compete with each other for the most impressive kills.

 

Ironic how Telion is more accurate than the best sniper the Imperium can offer. Expecially when he is firing an essentially big bolter compared to a sniper rifle.

 

6 summed up my opinions. I've been using a Vindicare lately and though he is fun to use, he is too hit and miss (sorry bad pun), and there is better ways to spend his points. The Callidus will still take something valuable out, and will be a great thorn in your opponents side.

[Venenum]

I'll agree with 6 and Red. The callidus is still a solid choice, relative to our codex.

 

With assassins as a whole, the best advice I can give is to try and pick soft targets. (Fire warriors, biovores, etc)

Try and hit something that doesn't hit back that effectively but whose destruction would make life easier for you.

 

So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.

Sun Tzu

[SJumppanen]

Assasins also work well when you can support them somehow. Like if you can soften up their desired target. This is obiviously realy easy with Callidus as that neural shredder does that part, but other assasins will need assistance from elsewere, maybe bombard Eversors target with Exorcist or send Seraphims with him. It also helps if you just pick smaller squads.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ironic how Telion is more accurate than the best sniper the Imperium can offer. Expecially when he is firing an essentially big bolter compared to a sniper rifle.

 

And really, he's got a weaker but always on Turbo Penetrator (well not versus Vehicles...), and instead of reducing the cover save of his opponents by one, he gets to increase his own by one instead. And instead of an AP2 weapon, he's got a Rending one.

 

Telion is really a slap in face to the poor Vindicare, and seemingly just another facet to the grab bag of cherry picking for the new SM Dex.

[SJumppanen]

I think that it would be perfectly fair that FAQ would state that Vindicare has unlimited amount of each ammo. It would not be unbalancing considering that there are Stern guards around these days.

[tksolway]

I agree, and I don't see why he can't have a Heavy 2 sniper rifle. He is the best you know.

[Toogeloo]

I think that it would be perfectly fair that FAQ would state that Vindicare has unlimited amount of each ammo. It would not be unbalancing considering that there are Stern guards around these days.

I thoroughly agree with this as well.

 

 

I agree, and I don't see why he can't have a Heavy 2 sniper rifle. He is the best you know.

I think Heavy 2 might be a little extreme since he has the Turbo Penetrator, so if he hits both times he can actually inflict 4 wounds to a single model or 2 wounds to 2 separate models each. I think a single shot is fine, however I would increase the range of the Vindicare's Exitus Rifle to 48" and/or allow him to wound on 3+ instead of 4+, and an increase in AP value of 1 isn't too breaking, all to represent that he is the Imperium's best sniper. Given his current point cost, this isn't too dramatic a change in comparison to what the current SM codex offers.

 

 

And really, he's got a weaker but always on Turbo Penetrator (well not versus Vehicles...)

If you hit with both shots of his Boltgun, you still have to allocate wounds by the rules, so you won't able to put 2 wounds on the same model unless he is by himself. The vindicare's Turbo Penetrator is better simply because you allocate a single wound, but the model takes two if it doesn't save (and it works great against vehicles).

[Inquisitor Fox]

I must respectfully disagree with most of the posters here... I think they're still worth it, however there are a few caveats to their use that must be considered.

 

1) With 5th edition being a refinement of 4th edition, you can no longer expect one model, ANY model, to win the entire game for you. The emphasis is still on large bodies of troops and units that will overall win the game. Character' effectiveness has been broadly downplayed across the board, and assassins are still characters.

 

2) Kill points is definately something to consider, however most missions I've played in the new edition are objective based, as well as storyline campaign missions. I play far, far more objective based missions than any kill point ones. This means that groups of assassins in the majority of missions do not negatively affect you more than a single unit does. This should be taken with a grain of salt, because if you play many random "lets see what the dice give us" missions there is the approximately 33% chance of a kill point mission. For those who do storylines, objectives, linked campaigns, etc... I don't see kill points being a problem.

 

3) Assassins do not operate on a battlefield size engagement alone. If it were a game of kill team or Inquisitor I would expect them to be alone. On 40k scale, it seems rediculous to expect the assassin to take out an army by themselves. Pairing them with other units however, makes them simply brutal. Ever try two or three Death Cult Assassins doing a simultaneous assault with a unit of Seraphim or a close combat Inquisitorial Witch Hunter retinue? It's a beautiful sight indeed. Or when I had two Death Cult Assassins jump a combat squad of marines with hidden powerfist and Chaplain (in cover mind you), wipe out everything but the sergeant and Chaplain, and tie the marine unit down for two or three combat rounds until they died in the opponent' turn, allowing my Inquisitorial Retinue to charge the sergeant and character, utterly wiping them out and leaving my Stormtrooper squad the only unit holding the single objective of the campaign battle. It was glorious.

 

4) People's expectations seem to be that Assassins will be as effective and overpowered as they were in say, 2nd edition or even 3rd against large bodies of troops. Characters strengths have been downplayed, and troops strengths have been increased. This is part of what is behind point #1, however people need to mentally adjust their expectations of the assassin.

 

5) Remember this: Ordo Assassinorum assassins are among the finest trained humans the Imperium has to offer, equal and in many ways superior to Imperial Guard Colonels and senior officers, Inquisitors and Inquisitor Lords. But they are only unmodified humans. The example with Telion is you take someone with the same skill and training as a Vindicare, but give him a Space Marine body instead of a normal human one. Yes, I think it's cheesy too, but it's the nature of the game. Space Marines > normal humans. This ties into point #4.

 

6) Assassins do not win the game in and of themselves, however what they allow you to do is to tilt certain key engagements into your favor, which adjust the overall flow of a battle. In my years of Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40K I have noticed that every battle is ultimately decided by one to three pivotal moments, which adjust who is winning the entire game. The ability to spot these pivotal moments before they happen, and to pull out all your trumph cards and ensure those pivotal moments go in your favor is what determines a great general. Assassins are one of those trumph cards, that alone will do nothing. Mixing them with your other units to help tilt pivotal moments into your favor ensures success. This ties into point #3.

 

So, I must respectfully disagree with the esteemed Number 6, Red Lost Soldier, and Venenum. I believe the assassins are definately worth their points... if you adjust how you use them to fit the new picture of the game.

[Gentlemanloser]

If you hit with both shots of his Boltgun, you still have to allocate wounds by the rules, so you won't able to put 2 wounds on the same model unless he is by himself. The vindicare's Turbo Penetrator is better simply because you allocate a single wound, but the model takes two if it doesn't save (and it works great against vehicles).

 

You (the Telion Player) can allocate exatly where both his wounds go. they can be put on the same mini if you want (Eye's of Vengeance rule)

 

With 5th edition being a refinement of 4th edition, you can no longer expect one model, ANY model, to win the entire game for you.

 

I disagree.

 

Skulltaker, a Daemon Prince of Nurgle, and Lysnader are all single mini's that I have seen, and in some cases used, to have won matches on thier own. In 5th, there really are some beastly 'heros' in 40K. And none of the Assassins are in that list.

 

Or when I had two Death Cult Assassins jump a combat squad of marines with hidden powerfist and Chaplain (in cover mind you), wipe out everything but the sergeant and Chaplain, and tie the marine unit down for two or three combat rounds until they died in the opponent' turn, allowing my Inquisitorial Retinue to charge the sergeant and character, utterly wiping them out and leaving my Stormtrooper squad the only unit holding the single objective of the campaign battle. It was glorious.

 

How did they do that when they don't have Frags?

 

Characters strengths have been downplayed

 

Some have, like the assassins. Newer ones haven't.

 

For their points, they don't perform well enough. DCA cost the same as a temrinator, aren't as durable, and fold in CC. The Assassins cost even more. They aren't worth thier points.

 

The only good thing to come from 5th is the Cover save they get from being behind a unit they can't join anyway...

 

But being unable to join units for saftey, unable to mave faster than 6" + Run, and the inability to ride any transport, makes them utterly ineffective (bar the Callidus) in the role they are supposed to perform.

[Inquisitor Fox]

With 5th edition being a refinement of 4th edition, you can no longer expect one model, ANY model, to win the entire game for you.

 

I disagree.

 

Skulltaker, a Daemon Prince of Nurgle, and Lysnader are all single mini's that I have seen, and in some cases used, to have won matches on thier own. In 5th, there really are some beastly 'heros' in 40K. And none of the Assassins are in that list.

I will conceed the point that some characters are so beefy and super powered that they break my general guideline caveat I stated. I still think in general the point stands, however :D

Or when I had two Death Cult Assassins jump a combat squad of marines with hidden powerfist and Chaplain (in cover mind you), wipe out everything but the sergeant and Chaplain, and tie the marine unit down for two or three combat rounds until they died in the opponent' turn, allowing my Inquisitorial Retinue to charge the sergeant and character, utterly wiping them out and leaving my Stormtrooper squad the only unit holding the single objective of the campaign battle. It was glorious.

 

How did they do that when they don't have Frags?

I initiated the charge against the squad which was in cover. Yes, I struck last, however there were several things going for me: The chaplain's rule specifically states "In the turn that they charge..." The Chaplain's tactical squad didn't charge, they WERE charged, therefore no Litanies of Hate. The DCA's were higher weapon skill than all the marines of the tactical squad, so they were hitting on 4s instead of 3s. With some relatively average rolling (remember they didn't get the bonus attacks from being charged, I did, and they didn't get the rerolls for Litanies of Hate) the marines caused only a couple of wounds, about half of which were saved by the DCA's invulnerable saves. No DCA models were lost. The DCA's slaughtered 4 marines with power weapons as I directed every available attack into the tactical squad on the premise of destroying the potentially scoring unit. I won by combat resolution, the marine's were fearless so couldn't withdraw and were stuck in combat. Sadly I didn't cause any fearless wounds. Yes next round the DCA's bit it, but that allowed my Witch Hunter Inquisitorial Lord, her two crusaders and combat servitor, and other various retinue folks to initiate the charge on my turn after the marines could only consolidate, which was a repeat only most of them had frag grenades so it was even quicker as I killed the marines in initiative order ;)

 

edit note: I should have clarified the rule about frag grenades applies only in the first round of combat. After that first round the non-frag bearing party reverts to iniative order.

 

Characters strengths have been downplayed

 

Some have, like the assassins. Newer ones haven't.

I will conceed the point that some characters are so beefy and super powered that they break my general guideline caveat I stated. I still think in general the point stands, however :)

For their points, they don't perform well enough. DCA cost the same as a temrinator, aren't as durable, and fold in CC. The Assassins cost even more. They aren't worth thier points.

 

The only good thing to come from 5th is the Cover save they get from being behind a unit they can't join anyway...

 

But being unable to join units for saftey, unable to mave faster than 6" + Run, and the inability to ride any transport, makes them utterly ineffective (bar the Callidus) in the role they are supposed to perform.

This is the opinion portion where ultimately it comes down to our own personal perspective on whether the goal for their role is accomplished, and what a point spent is worth. I will agree that many people will see it differently than I do, however for me assassins are still worth their points, thus I continue to use them happily. Your viewpoint is completely valid, and is simply a different style of play from my own. To me the model doesn't have to completely eliminate targets to render them ineffective, much like my example with my 2 DCA's tying up the combat squad and character of marines and allowing me to eliminate them with a different unit. In my mind, those assassins fulfilled their job immensely well and I will continue to use them, kill point games or not. That is all that I was attempting to share, a different perspective from the majority so that others can see both viewpoints and come to their own conclusion and judgement call.

[tksolway]

I have to agree for the most part, I find that my most useful units in game are the ones that i can drop in. With the new Deep Strike rules, I have been deep striking my termie units, and to great effect, I usually have them show up behind enemy lines and target some week points, which changes my opponents plans, as he tries to defend them. Other times I have been able to use them to shore up my own defenses deep striking in to lend support to a squad that is in heavy. The downside is I only have one (or in high point games two) of these units, with the DCAs and their Outflanking manuevers, suddenly I have three 40 point units that can do this as well. I have never had to DCA eliminate a unit for me, but they sure help were needed.

[Toogeloo]

If you hit with both shots of his Boltgun, you still have to allocate wounds by the rules, so you won't able to put 2 wounds on the same model unless he is by himself. The vindicare's Turbo Penetrator is better simply because you allocate a single wound, but the model takes two if it doesn't save (and it works great against vehicles).

 

You (the Telion Player) can allocate exatly where both his wounds go. they can be put on the same mini if you want (Eye's of Vengeance rule)

 

That is incorrect. No where in Telion's rule, Eye of Vengeance, does it say that you do not have to adhere to normal wound allocation. It only says that you, the controller of Telion, can allocate the wounds of Telion's shooting and not the wounded player. You must still adhere to wound allocation rules (i.e. no model can take a second wound until all other models have taken at least one).