Assassins under the new Codex?

[Narthecium]

I feel like they should just make the Vindi's rounds ignore cover saves, to show how good a shot he really is. Would make his life a lot easier and make him a lot more worthwhile.

[Gentlemanloser]

If you hit with both shots of his Boltgun, you still have to allocate wounds by the rules, so you won't able to put 2 wounds on the same model unless he is by himself. The vindicare's Turbo Penetrator is better simply because you allocate a single wound, but the model takes two if it doesn't save (and it works great against vehicles).

 

You (the Telion Player) can allocate exatly where both his wounds go. they can be put on the same mini if you want (Eye's of Vengeance rule)

 

That is incorrect. No where in Telion's rule, Eye of Vengeance, does it say that you do not have to adhere to normal wound allocation. It only says that you, the controller of Telion, can allocate the wounds of Telion's shooting and not the wounded player. You must still adhere to wound allocation rules (i.e. no model can take a second wound until all other models have taken at least one).

 

You're right. Hmmm, that's actually quite crap.

 

But I expect it to get FAQed before any of the Inq issues are....

 

GW: Telions Eye of Vengeance rule ignores all wound allocation rules. How cool is that!!

[ferrous]

1) With 5th edition being a refinement of 4th edition, you can no longer expect one model, ANY model, to win the entire game for you. The emphasis is still on large bodies of troops and units that will overall win the game. Character' effectiveness has been broadly downplayed across the board, and assassins are still characters.

 

This seems so wrong, Eldrad is still effective, Abbadon & Khârn, still effective, all the new Marine 'Dex characters still effective, everything that comes out of the Daemon Codex, unique or lone characters are effective. If anything, 5th edition is all about high point cost, effective, game winning single miniatures. Which is what the Vindicare should be good against, but isn't, as he's so lousy at his job. (always has been, just worse under 5th)

 

3) Assassins do not operate on a battlefield size engagement alone.

Yes, but they need to be worth their points, or you're better off using those points on troops elsewhere. #4 is just a reiteration of points 3 and 1, i'm not going to bother. But lets just say, troops strengths have not increased beyond the cover save, and special characters are if anything, more prevalent, not less, in 5th

 

5) Remember this: Ordo Assassinorum assassins are among the finest trained humans the Imperium has to offer, equal and in many ways superior to Imperial Guard Colonels and senior officers, Inquisitors and Inquisitor Lords. But they are only unmodified humans. The example with Telion is you take someone with the same skill and training as a Vindicare, but give him a Space Marine body instead of a normal human one. Yes, I think it's cheesy too, but it's the nature of the game. Space Marines > normal humans. This ties into point #4.

Uh, i sincerely doubt that most of the assassins are unmodified humans. I mean, check out the culexus or the eversor models, i'm assuming their genetically modified, drugged up and cybered up with all kinds of modfications. And Telion has not had the same training, he just has alot of battles under his belt.

 

6) Assassins do not win the game in and of themselves, however what they allow you to do is to tilt certain key engagements into your favor, which adjust the overall flow of a battle.

Again, this is just a reiteration of what you're already saying, and the problem again is that they aren't worth their points, they can adjust the battle, but not as much as if you had simply spent the points elsewhere. Point for point, they aren't reliable, and aren't worth their points and give up easy Kps.

 

 

And the thing is, it would not take all that much to make them worth their points again, just a tweak here or there, hell i'd even pay more points if they were a bit more reliable.

[Inquisitor Fox]

1) With 5th edition being a refinement of 4th edition, you can no longer expect one model, ANY model, to win the entire game for you. The emphasis is still on large bodies of troops and units that will overall win the game. Character' effectiveness has been broadly downplayed across the board, and assassins are still characters.

 

This seems so wrong, Eldrad is still effective, Abbadon & Khârn, still effective, all the new Marine 'Dex characters still effective, everything that comes out of the Daemon Codex, unique or lone characters are effective. If anything, 5th edition is all about high point cost, effective, game winning single miniatures. Which is what the Vindicare should be good against, but isn't, as he's so lousy at his job. (always has been, just worse under 5th)

That's the thing though... you're comparing a generic 2 wound character to a special named character with hordes of 40k experience and lore behind them. The Imperial Assassins, as impressive as they are, are un-named, un-lored, non special characters. They are equivalent to a regular Imperial Guard Colonel, Commissar, Tech-priest, regular standard vanilla Space Marine Captain, Librarian, a standard Eldar Autarch or Farseer, etc. Not the special named characters. Regular characters, in their own right do not dictate the course of an entire battle in and of themselves. Even the burly Imperial Assassins are only just over 100 points. We cannot expect a single 100 to 140 point model (which is less than a single tactical squad of Space Marines) to dictate and determine the course of the entire battle. That would be completely out of whack. We have to look at how much they are, what like characters are costed in other armies, and determine their use by that comparison.

 

Apparently I'm the only person who doesn't worry about the Kill Points obsessively, since in my mind only a small percentage of games actually are fought on Kill Points.

 

In any event, it comes down again to a personal preference and belief as to what each point is "worth." I find the assassins as they currently are worth their point cost. I get as much use and utility out of them as I do any other character in my army, and my games are won and lost based on the troop squads I have chosen and my overall strategy, tactics, and deployment. No one character in any game I have played has ever made the entire difference on their own, nor do I expect that to now at least for me and the way I play and have been successful. If something else works for every other poster here, more power to ya :P I just am obligated to post the viewpoint that has worked for me, and been successful. People deserve to read other opinions besides "Assassins all suck."

[Narthecium]

No but you would think that for the amount of points that they cost they'd be much better than they are. I don't think anyone is expecting them to win the battle for you -- but to actually make a substantial difference would be nice.

 

You can't compare them to a squad of marines because that squad would have four times the wounds, many times the attack power, better stats...etc. It's apples and oranges.

[Inquisitor Fox]

No but you would think that for the amount of points that they cost they'd be much better than they are. I don't think anyone is expecting them to win the battle for you -- but to actually make a substantial difference would be nice.

 

You can't compare them to a squad of marines because that squad would have four times the wounds, many times the attack power, better stats...etc. It's apples and oranges.

The problem there is we are left with the impossible task to attempt to define and quanitify "Substantial" which can't be done. It's a subjective term.

 

I do admit it's not exactly fair to try and compare apples and oranges, but that's the comparison you have to make when deciding to take a 2nd character versus an additional squad of troops versus an additional tank. Each one has strengths and weaknesses, and it's as much about how they will play and cooperate with the rest of your own forces, to supplement your weaknesses or play to your strengths, as well as your personal strategy as anything else.

 

The original poster didn't ask "Do assassins need to be improved?" or "Would improvements make assassins better?" He asked if we felt they were worth taking, worthwhile. I think they are *shrugs* Maybe I'm the only one, and I'm willing to accept that, but I'll still step up to the plate and defend assassins place in my army list and the list of anyone else :P

[Toogeloo]

A Vindicare should easily be able to make it's points back if you are targeting the right things. It should not turn the tide of the battle, but it should give you a little more room to breathe. Just taking out a Power Fist Sergeant and a Rhino with Troops makes a difference, and both are easy to eliminate (2+ to hit, 2+ to wound [Hellfire] on the Power Fist; 2+ to hit and requiring an 9 on 3d6 [Turbo Penetrator]) to pen a Rhino, 50% chance of shutting it down). Those are two easy hits, that make life a little easier. Maybe the Vindicare doesn't always make it's points back, but neither does Extra Armor on tanks, but people still take it anyways. The hit or miss of a Vindicare is no different really than using the Ordnance of a Vindicator or Leman Russ and watching it drift over 6" away each fire. It's all luck, but some days the unit really shines while others it doesn't.

 

I lost count how many times my Exorcists have done bunk in my games, rolling 1 or 2 missles, or missing all it's shots, and sometimes the few shots that get through don't pen or kill anything. Everything revovles around luck in this game, and to blame a unit for not producing every turn is rather unfair to that unit.

[ferrous]

The thing is that you can only take one assassin per army (not counting DCAs), so in a way, they are just as unique as Abaddon. And many of the models in the daemon codex i referred to were not unique characters, just lone models.

 

Anyway, assassins aren't almost always not worth their points, and you're better off fielding something else. That being said, they're still fun to use.

 

 

DCA's cost more then a terminator, but actually tend to do pretty well vs them if you can get into CC. Against mobs they aren't useful, so its best to other small elite troops who aren't high init.

 

Eversor is great for mob troops, and slightly effective vs vehicles because he has melta bombs, he's also the cheapest of the bunch, can flank and has a 12" charge range. He just sucks vs anyone that has I6, so avoid that unless he can have him backed up by someone painful to ignore. (Like a GKGM and an Eversor in the same melee can be pretty nice)

 

Callidus is still semi useful, low leadership troops will get destroyed by a str8 ap1 template, and the no saves in combat is nice, but vs. daemons she's an expensive one turn wonder, so i have a hard time with her. (Why did they give all the daemons LD 10? i can understand fearless, but :cuss?)

 

Culexus sucks at close combat, and has a 12" range weapon so you get to fire once and then get charged, but the LD7 thing has potential for combos. Too bad you can't stick'em in a transport, i'd love to tank shock tough dudes at ld7. Also a shame you can't take more then one assassin, the template from the callidus in combination would be great.

 

Vindicare, i read his abilities and i go wow, hes got the most options, and should work well vs just about any list. And then I play with him, and realize how crappy he is. Misses 1/6 of the time, only wounds 1/2 the time and then most likely there will be a cover save, so they will save 1/3 of the time. Those fractions add up to him successfully wounding someone to less than a third of the time he shoots, and he only gets to shoot six times the entire game if he's lucky. And he's the second most expensive assassin.

[Narthecium]

I agree entirely that assassins are *shrug* and I also agree that they are extremely fun. Not to mention they usually have a fun psychological impact on opponents.

 

As far as the vindicare earning his points back, he's really not reliable enough to. The extra armor is also not nearly the same comparison, because how much is extra armor versus the Vindicare.

[Red Lost Soldier]

It's not that I think assassins are 'useless,' they simply aren't competitive anymore for the most part. This game may rely on luck, but the assassins unfortunately rely on it too much. The Vindicare, he kills something less than half the time (stupid 4+ to wound). His special ammo being one shot is hard too, rolling badly on turbo penetrator or hellfire can ruin a good plan. The Callidus, bad reserve rolls means she might not turn up until the pivotal point has passed. Also, a single bad to hit or wound rolls mean she'll get minced. Rolling lots of dice means luck it less likely to screw your plans, which mean assassins simply are too variable for my liking. Though I still throw them in for fun, and still enjoy playing with them.

 

The Eversor and Culexus I have not played with.

 

As a side note, I too abhor kill points. We've reverted back to victory points if we're rolling and come up with that mission. Victory points makes so much more sense, why they abandoned it for the insanely stupid KP system is beyond me.

[Toogeloo]

As far as the vindicare earning his points back, he's really not reliable enough to. The extra armor is also not nearly the same comparison, because how much is extra armor versus the Vindicare.

Depends on how much Extra Armor you take. And then after that, it depends on how many times you get stunned.

 

A Vindicare may not fully earn it's points back (or it might, Ive popped a fully loaded Leman with it which was more than enough and it was the only think I destroyed/killed), but it has better odds of at least making any points back than a couple Extra Armor purchases.

[Venenum]

hmmm... let's go back to the initial point where we started.

 

are they worth it?

 

There are many measures of worth that one can apply in order to answer a question like this.

"Worth it" could be measured in combat effectiveness, breaking even on killpoints, or just tipping the balance at the right time as Inquisitor NicolePyykkonen pointed out.

 

To know what you mean by worth it, you have to stop and ask what you are trying to get out of the game. If you're in a tournament, or even a highly competitive gaming group this may not be the choice (or dare i say codex) for you. However, if you're out to have some fun, in a relaxed gaming environment where people come for the social aspect then the assassin is a great choice. Assassins certainly can be used in 5th, it's just not as easy as it used to be. Fair enough, that's just the new edition for us.

 

And just to defend the much maligned Vindicare for a moment, let's be honest the Vindicare who is standing with his foot an Ork Skull and taking aim on a target down range is one of the coolest models ever. You can't put one of those on the table without someone saying "Vindicare-- Cool!"

 

If anyone's interested here's my definition of worth it:

does it tie into the theme of my army? yes

does it tie into the greater themes of the 40k universe? you bet

is it fun to use even if not the most points effective choice? yes again

 

For me, all of the assassins pass the worth it test. But that's me and my personal taste. Then again I'm a radical player that uses 2 Daemonhosts in the list wherever possible. Daemonhosts again, hardly the most effective choice, but there's no way you're going to convince me that that's not cool.

 

 

-Venenum

 

<ducks and covers before a puritan psycannon gets aimed at him>

[Narthecium]

As far as the vindicare earning his points back, he's really not reliable enough to. The extra armor is also not nearly the same comparison, because how much is extra armor versus the Vindicare.

Depends on how much Extra Armor you take. And then after that, it depends on how many times you get stunned.

 

A Vindicare may not fully earn it's points back (or it might, Ive popped a fully loaded Leman with it which was more than enough and it was the only think I destroyed/killed), but it has better odds of at least making any points back than a couple Extra Armor purchases.

 

 

 

Well extra armor is a 15 point upgrade..so...you'd need to upgrade what, like 7 or 8 vehicles in order to cover the cost of the assassin? The issue is that he's just such a high points model and not nearly reliable enough for what he costs. I love the guy, don't get me wrong...it was the first assassin I ever got, and I love putting him down on the table. Your example where he crushed a Leman is probably not the norm I"d guess..for me he more often than not misses shots or wounds.

 

I'm sort of more along the lines of Red Soldier's first paragraph of thinking when it comes to the assassins.

 

That being said, I still absolutely LOVE them and have Vindicare, Callidus, and Death Cult all chilling out in my "shelf o' 40k" as we speak.

[Gentlemanloser]

Your example where he crushed a Leman is probably not the norm I"d guess..for me he more often than not misses shots or wounds.

 

LoL!

 

Using his wound on 2+ ammo practically screams to the dice God to let you roll a 1 on either of the two dice. :)

 

At least his sniper rilfe still hits on a 2+. Shame Telion get's to reroll those 1's for a chance to hit with a 6.... Damn Telion. Far cheaper and a much better sniper.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Narthecium Posted Today, 02:39 PM

Your example where he crushed a Leman is probably not the norm I"d guess..for me he more often than not misses shots or wounds.

 

I wish that was true for me - my regular opponent fields a Vindicare, and has the annoying ability to score 15 or above to penetrate on the Turbo-Penetrator roll. The number of times he's destroyed my Land Raider Crusader on the first turn . . . :)

[number6]

Apparently I'm the only person who doesn't worry about the Kill Points obsessively, since in my mind only a small percentage of games actually are fought on Kill Points.

1 out of every 3 games I play is Kill Points. Not just because of random chance -- though that is a large part of the majority of games -- but because the "threat" of KPs makes army list building far more interesting and, well, tactical. So in my local environment, whether it's pick-up games, or a league, or a tournament, you can expect KPs to rear up 1 out of every 3 games. It's a serious consideration. I like that. This, to me, is the biggest reason to avoid DCAs. In non-KP environments, that calculus can indeed change.

 

Glad to see you sticking up for the assassins, Inquisitor. I wish I felt they were as useful as you did, else I'd be helping you out here. But I am listening, and admit to being partially persuaded. (I do actually continue to use the Callidus and Eversor in about half of my games.) Keep up the good fight. Especially enlightening would be batreps where you coordinated your assassins with your army in such a way that you felt it was game-turning. Have anything like that to offer?

[Toogeloo]

Your example where he crushed a Leman is probably not the norm I"d guess..for me he more often than not misses shots or wounds

Actually, the Turbo Penetrator and the Hellfire round are your two best opportunities to make your points back.

 

Turbo Penetrator has 3d6 penetration which averages out to be ~+9/10 to your strength 3 penetration roll. On top of that you have a 50% chance of rolling a 6 which then gives you another d3 penetration. Just using the straight slightly lower average of 3+9, you are penetrating on 12's, and if you have your Vindicare in cover on a flanking edge (that is where I put mine), 12 is more than plenty to penetrate most vehicle (obviously not demolishers or LRs).

 

Next you have the Hellfire round. 2+ to Hit and then 2+ to wound, AP2. Your odds are very good to take out that Power Fist Assault Sarge, or the Techmarine Gunner for that flashy looking Thunderfire Cannon (yeah you could probably destroy the cannon too, but I like using my TP rounds for bigger tanks).

 

You are truly defying the odds of not making some points back if you miss with either of these two rounds. The Shield Breaker has gotten a bit more use with the new Space Marine codex and all the Storm Shield wielders, but it's ability to wound on a 4+ still hurts it.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Lets see.. a couple of thoughts this morning:

 

@Red Lost Soldier: One thing to point out with the Vindicare, is yes he is relatively less powerful against regular toughness opponents. There is a quirk, however, in his ability to always wound on a 4+... being that against creatures of toughness 6 or higher he is one of the most effective weapons you have! He wounds Carnifexs just as easily as he does an orc. For an army that we admit has a relative lack of high strength anti-tank weaponry that in and of itself can be very useful. Even if he doesn't kill a target outright, if we divide a targets point cost by the number of wounds it possesses, he certainly starts making a difference. Sometimes that one extra wound is all that it takes so that something drops that much quicker. I remember several apocalypse games where I had standard Imperial Guardsmen snipers taking out wounds from a Hive Tyrant and Carnifex because of the always wound on a 4+... and the Vindicare is simply better than they are in every respect.

 

@Number 6: The best example is the 500 point campaign game I played against someone in a campaign who needed an opponent so he didn't have a by round... I came in for a few 500 point games that month and had a prewritten Witch Hunter's list (my Inquisitor and a slightly paired down retinue, 2 5man stormtrooper squads, 2 DCA's) and fought 500 points of Dark Angels (Chaplain, 2 combat squads/1 tactical squad.. not sure if for the campaign they were limited by force org, lascannon dread, razorback w/ twin hvy bolters). There was an "X" pattern of 5 buildings, objective was in the central one, deployment by spearhead. I started in my bottom right, infiltrated the DCA's to my top right. He started in Top Left. Deployed the marines in the top left building, split the combat squads, put one into the razorback (with sergeant and chaplain) and came clockwise around the board (all directions are relative to my viewpoint). Dreadnaught came down about halfway on the left side. I ran all my infantry towards the central building, held the DCA's waiting to jump the combat squad coming by razorback and use their threat of death to force his deployment. He did drop the squad off at the central building and continue the razorback around clockwise. My stormtrooper squads advanced to the other side of the central building, small firefight with no marine casualties. My Inquisitor's Scourging removed the hvy bolters from the razorback and made it inconsequential for the rest of the game. The opponent just zoomed it around in a circle for kicks. The Marines advanced up the building, as did my stormtroopers. The DCA's had been moved after the razorback bit it to the central building as well.. the stormtroopers were ahead of the marines due to movement in terrain rolls, and occupied the top two floors of the building. The marines advanced after them, however the DCA's stopped them in time for my retinue to mop up the two models that were left (so technically the 80 points of DCAs only killed 60 points of marines, but I was assualting into cover and buying time). Now admittedly my opponent made a mistake in my view of not bringing ALL the marines into the building.. he kept half of them as a long range fire support team that admittedly did reduce the numbers of my stormtroopers so I won with just one sergeant on the objective, but I also should have brought the troopers down a level or two out of LoS sooner once the close combat cavalry had arrived to bail them out. The dread didn't do much the whole game.

 

I will though, start keeping track of my battles with my Inquisition forces in the efforts of providing more field data with assassins. Most of my games lately have been Lucky 13's Apocalypse games where my scratch-built Warhound Titan or my Inquisitor's table-wide Psychic Hood have made a large impact, in addition to simply large amounts of guardsmen, stormtroopers and battle sisters holding the line ^.^

 

It's also worth mentioning that at the moment I own 4 DCA's and 2 Vindicares, but don't actually have the other assassins. The Eversor would probably be the other one that would compliment my own forces, but I've tended to use groups of DCA's for close combat counter-charging with Seraphim. It's more the long range shooting that I lack with my Inquisition forces. In reality I need to just get an Exorcist to help out my Land Raider and Retributors, but I don't like the look of them and want to get the Exorcist kit with the Forge World turret. This is where being a parent on a budget cramps my model acquisition

[ferrous]

Also, one bit i would like to add, is that Assassins seem to do pretty well vs Marines. 3 DCAs charging a 10 man squad will do pretty well, and will do well vs terminators as well. (though not the new storm shields) Of course for those points you could've gotten 3 GKTs, which have better stats all around except initiative and wounds, but they would be one squad, while three DCAs will require three units to shoot at them, so are much more likely to last from plasma volleys.

[number6]

The Eversor would probably be the other one that would compliment my own forces, but I've tended to use groups of DCA's for close combat counter-charging with Seraphim.

I've always preferred a single Eversor to 2 or even 3 DCAs. Back in 4th edition, I ran 3 DCAs and an Eversor as a block, and that was mighty fun. Still would be in 5th (though, again, you now have to account for their increased vulnerability both in and out of assault). You may or may not be aware that I have long evangelized including Seraphim in every Inquisition list -- particularly Daemonhunters. I rarely leave home without them. I have found that an Eversor + Seraphim combo is really devastating. Can't recommend that strongly enough if you can manage to coordinate such a thing.

This is where being a parent on a budget cramps my model acquisition :P

I hear ya! ;) There's a reason I've played nothing but DH for more than 4 years (beyond my ample love of the army, that is). Starting tomorrow, I'll get my first chance to use the Tau army I've been collecting for more than two years. :P

[Inquisitor Fox]

I hear ya! :) There's a reason I've played nothing but DH for more than 4 years (beyond my ample love of the army, that is). Starting tomorrow, I'll get my first chance to use the Tau army I've been collecting for more than two years. :D

What a coincidence, I too have decided to sell off my unused Eldar and Orc & Goblin fantasy armies to start... Tau ^.^

 

I converted my DCA's because I loved the standard models, but hated the heads... so I filed off the masky bits and green stuffed hair falling over various parts of their faces and long hair on the back... I think they look rather sharp now :) Reminds me of Celia and Lede from Final Fantasy Tactics...

 

Ahem.. back on subject...

 

I've found target selection to be of utmost importance in the use of assassins (particularly my beloved DCA's). They are NOT close combat monster attack squads of indescriminate destruction (like Khorne Beserkers, Assault Marines, Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions). Rather thier strength is in identifying smaller squads (combat squad sized, falcon transport sized, rather than 10+ man squads) or lone characters, backfield Devastators, and eliminating or tying up those units. This is where their infiltration ability to be deployed in probable lines of advance, or outflanking ability to hit the rear lines comes in handy. Sending them after the wrong target (or something that doesn't maximize their Strength 4 power weapon attacks) reduces their value immensely. Trying to use them as shock close assault troops also results in problems, as their 5+ invuln save, while considerable, doesn't chalk up to prolonged combat. They really need to wipe up their targets in the first round, maybe two.. or else they're toast.

 

The Vindicare needs a similar kind of target selection, but his is a bit better as he can ignore targeting restrictions and pick out individual high importance models that need to die (like Apothecaries, Icon Bearers, Vox Operators, Characters, etc) from a distance instead of just close combat.

 

Seraphim, Terminators, and some of the other nifty Witch Hunters toys (Arco-Flagellants, Sisters Repentia, Penitant Engines) are much more effective in terms of general close combat ability, the assassins are really for pinpoint destructive strikes. You have to learn to predict your opponents moves so that you can have them in place before they are needed, so they can do the job they were bought for.

 

So.. in other words, we have to plan and manipulate like sneaky Inquisitors :)

[NaZ]

I think it comes down to points efficiency

 

when you factor in the cost of an inquisitor (even just a 20 pt one) you're paying almost 150 for the vindicare. and that is making the general assumption that you are not doing anything with the inquisitor.

 

now if you could just take them outright, it MIGHT be worth it

 

but compare costs here. the 150 points is 6 grey knights or almost 4 terminators

 

for sisters, 150 is a 10 sister squad with a superior and some upgrades, or an exorcist, or some other stuff

 

so its really hard to justify a single model, no how much they can do, when compared against that

 

now its different for sisters, since the canoness adds 2 faith points, and its pretty mean in her own right. she certainly is going to break a tank or two, and hose down some infantry. she is basically guaranteed to make her points back.

 

same thing with a grey knight captain. he's going to wreck house and toss things around from the moment he hits the table onward

 

a vindicare can be brutal, but only if you roll really well. better to just hose down your target with enough bullets that they have to save on the valuable models anyway

 

NaZ

[Tauren]

*Shrug* I am still at a lose as to how a sniper has to worry about a cover save... fact of the matter is if the unit can shot, they are opening themselves up to the imperium's best sniper. Seems odd that today's snipers can put a whole through a scope lense into the other snipers eyeball yet super powerful crysis suit vindicare can't peg a marine hiding in a hidy hole shooting.

 

IMO the vindicare is fine stat-wise but needs to remove all cover saves. And if a squad opens fire on a friendly unit with X of the vindicare he can pluck a target out when it opens up to fire. In this way you see alot more shots down-range with the universes' best sniper and he becomes a support unit. That heavy squad that is firing at some troops causing trouble? pop that heavy bolter and reduce the problem. Those marines trying to get open fire? Well pop that idiotic sergeant that has a power fist then tear into them with knights without any worry.

[Adir]

Apologies if this has already been asked/answered elsewhere but can the Calidus move an IC out of an attached squad? The 'word' rule stipulates that she can move one enemy unit... does an attached IC and the unit he is with count as a single unit or is the IC a unit unto himself?

 

I ask mainly for the fact the all but two of the new marine characters are not immune to instant death so taking her to simply move an IC to the front for a turn 1 shot might be worth it.

[number6]

It doesn't matter how many characters have joined a unit, there's still only one unit in question: the whole mess of models composing it. ICs only behave like their own unit in the environment of close combat. Outside of that, they're just one model among many in one singular unit.