Regrouping

[SeattleDV8]

I have an opponent that seems to believe that when his Marines regroup they somehow are able to move 9". I know major wishful thinking. It wouldn't be so bad but he somehow convinced my local GW manager that this was ok. This Manager is a very cool gent , runs a Great store but his ideas on rules are Very shaky. They are claiming that the fact that marines auto - rally they get the 3" movement and because they ignore the rally rule they get the normal 6" movement. I do not have the new codex : SM, I do have the BRB and have checked the FAQ's ..... ( don't tell me to get the new codex....I am a dark Angel player and I will not buy the new C:SM) Anyway I believe that pg 46 overrules this ( "once a unit has regrouped , it can not otherwise move during its movement phase" Granted without the ATSKNF quotes I could be totally wrong, But allowing Marines a 9" movement seems out of line.

[garreth]

Instead of consolidation move (3") marines can move as usual (6"), not both.

[nighthawks]

From ATSKNF, SM FAQ (Don't have new codex with me, works the same way):

"Usually troops that regroup may not move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply to models with this special rule."

 

no consolidation for marines regrouping.

[WarpSpawn]

To be honest, I think RAW possibly says they can. Not sure how I would play it in practice. I might skip the consolidation move as it does not seem quite right but I am unsure there is anything to prevent it beside my opinion on right and wrong.

 

ATSKNF says they automatically pass their test and do not suffer the normal restrictions on movement.

 

In the BRB, the consolidation move is granted to models passing a regroup test and in no way forms part of the restriction on their movement. If anything, this is a bonus movement. The restriction on movement is discussed in a seperate paragraph.

 

So ATSKNF allows them to ignore the paragraph on movement restrictions, but in no way excludes them from the bonus movement that passing (albeit automatically) a regroup test grants. Intentional or not, that's the way it currently reads. One for the SM FAQ methinks.

[SeattleDV8]

Someone pointed out (another board) that on pg. 11 BRB ...Infantry move up to 6" in the movement phase. So it seems that it is capped. PHEW!

[WarpSpawn]

The only obvious problem with that idea is that units falling back can typically move up to 12", which will often occur in the movement phase as well. I'm not convinced therefore that it is an all encompassing limitation on movement, but rather refers to normal movement only.

 

There is also the fact that a special rule or circumstance will usually override a general rule. Bikes can only move 12" but the turbo boost rule gives them permission to move further. Infantry can only move 6" but the regroup rule arguably gives permission to move further, in the case of space marines at least.

[SeattleDV8]

If you notice the fall back movement fall under complusory movement. and the Limit is for the movement phase. voluntary movement for infantry is the only thing capped. I know i know thin reed for a counter argument...lol

[WarpSpawn]

Compulsory or not though, falling back can happen in the movement phase. Also, the bit about infantry moving 6" does not mention whether this is compulsory or voluntary. Biker movement is also in the movement phase and is extended by a special rule.

 

Still unsure what the intention is here. I am quite happy to be proven wrong on this one as I am really not sure it feels right to get bonus movement in this way.

[Mal]

as stated above, the actual rules for marines consolidating under ATSKNF means they auto rally (even if under half strength), and act as normal troops, no consolidation, no additional movement, no penalties.

[WarpSpawn]

Which statement in either book do you feel denies them the additional movement, or is this just opinion?

[Mal]

its in the C:SM, I would give you the page number, but my brother has 'borrowed' it..... guess I need to buy a new copy... 'sigh'

[Master Vandor]

I know there is always the battle between RAW and RAI. To my knowledge the 3" move is meant to regain unit coherency (since models have to fallback the exact number on the dice and my therefore break coherency if some have to divert around impassible terrain or other units). It is not meant to get 3" closer to the enemy. After rereading the rules i am somewhat torn between how to call it. I think that if the enemy player has any honor they will honor the intention of the consolidation rule, using the 3" to restore coherency if needed, then take the squad's turn as normal. Though i can see nothing in the rule preventing them from moving 9" if the player so chooses.

 

Now this raises another question...it looks like RAW and maybe RAI are that a marine squad can take its 3" regroup move and then fight as if it were stationary. What do the rest of you think about that?

[WarpSpawn]

its in the C:SM, I would give you the page number, but my brother has 'borrowed' it..... guess I need to buy a new copy... 'sigh'

 

 

As far as I am aware, all the relevant rules are on page 51. The passage in question has already been quoted by Nighthawks but I shall repeat it here as well, with another bit that seems to be important.

 

Space Marines automatically pass tests to regroup

 

Usually troops that regroup may not move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply to models with this special rule.

 

And from the BRB:

 

If the unit successfully passes its Leadership test, it stops falling back and regroups. The unit can immediately move up to 3"

 

Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase, but otherwise it behaves as normal. For example, it can shoot (though it always

counts as moving on the turn it regroups)

 

A unit that passes it's test can immediately move 3". Space marines pass the test (albeit automatically) so qualify for this movement.

 

Now, as already noted, these 2 passages are in separate paragraphs. It seems pretty clear to me that ATSKNF is referencing this second paragraph as the wording is a very close match. The free 3" movement is in no way listed as one of the restrictions (and indeed is not a restriction), which are simply being unable to move normally and always counts as moving. These are the points that space marines are given explicit permission to ignore. There is no explicit or implicit statement that says they should ignore the bonus movement.

 

Master Vandor,

 

I'm not sure but I think the 3" is free movement, that does not count as movement for any other purpose. Am not 100% certain though.

[Master Vandor]

Master Vandor,

 

I'm not sure but I think the 3" is free movement, that does not count as movement for any other purpose. Am not 100% certain though.

 

Yeah that is basically how i read it.

[SeattleDV8]

For marines it seems clear that they can auto-rally, move the 3" and at that point count as not having moved. I see no way around that in RAW.

What I think should have been done was make it clearer that the marines by auto rallying would skip the consoildation move and go to normal movement. Looks like they changed the regrouping rule and left the old wording for ATSKNF.

[rat of vengence]

Well, the Codex says that normally, units that rally "...cannot move normally.. but these restrictions don't apply to...". I would suggest the regroup move is not a normal move, it is a restriction. Space Marines with ATSKNF do not get the regroup move (since it is not normal movement), they instead have a normal move should they choose to.

 

RoV

[WarpSpawn]

Units that regroup immediately move 3" and then cannot move normally. The 3" move is not a restriction, it is a bonus.

[Mal]

so what your saying is that units that regroup immediately are reduced to 3" movement taken immediately.... sounds like a restriction to me....

[WarpSpawn]

That's not how it works though. Their normal move is not reduced to 3". This is not their normal move.

[Mal]

well read how it says... instead of a normal move of 6" you can move 3".... how is that not a restriction?

[WarpSpawn]

It also ignores difficult terrain. How is that a restriction? Troops in such terrain (including slow and purposeful) have a 50/50 chance of moving that far or less anyway, so might even be at an advantage compared with normal movement.

 

There is also no sentence in the text that says 'moves 3" instead of 6"'. There is nothing to suggest the 3" has anything to do with normal movement. It is a regroup move, which usually occurs instead of normal movement. The wording of ATSKNF allows them the regroup move, and normal movement, whether this is the intent of the rule or not.

[Mal]

your not getting my point here are you...

 

ok, as I tried to explain earlier, its all open to interpertation, basing a rule on a word like restriction is not a good idea for RAW as just what a restriction is is open to debate, and different people will interpretate that differently... hence my earlier comment about needing to use a touch of RAI here.

[WarpSpawn]

I don't think you are getting my point either. The regroup move is not a restriction, even if you cannot move normally as well, in the same way that someone giving you £10 is not a loss, even if someone simultaneously breaks into your house and steals £100.

 

(And I have noticed my probabilty above is not correct but the point stands.)

[Master Vandor]

Unfortunately Mal the way they wrote it seems pretty clear. ATSKNF clearly replaces that second paragraph in the regrouping section. I think if it really was not intended for the marines to get their consolidation move then it would be worded differently.

 

Think about this: GW has been moving towards having universal rules yes? Well doesn't it make sense then that they would want regrouping to remain universal across the board for everyone? It reduces confusion because everyone does it the say way.

 

I dislike that some people will exploit this but I can't see anyway around it within the rules. I can at least take solace in the fact that even moving 9" the marines will still have to spend a whole turn regaining the ground they lost (on average). (Which may even be intended, fall back one turn to be less of a threat then move back into position the following turn. Sounds very tactical to me.) I mean if you look at the numbers the marine squad in their following turn will be between -3" through +7".

[Brother Gothard]

Are you kidding, guys? There's no debate here. If its coming down to whether a 3" consolidation move is a RESTRICTION or not, then I can settle this right now. Getting a 3" consolidation movement is NOT a restriction.

 

The ATSKNF rules are CLEARLY directed towards the latter part of the Morale rules, regarding movement as normal. Just look at the wording! 3" consolidation is a 'can' and the normal movement is a 'cannot.' Are you kidding? Can is an allowance, cannot is a restriction. ATSKNF is directed at a restriction of movement. Therefore, they get 3" consolidation.

 

No unit gets to move 6" after a regroup, therefore these is no restriction of 3" instead of 6". The first paragraph is the mechanics of regrouping, or what you "can" do. The second paragraph are the restrictions, or what you "cannot" do.

 

Come on.

 

[edit for spelling - i think all this studying is catching up to me]