Regrouping

[Brother Gothard]

Geez, how did I manage to muddle my point so badly? All I was saying is what Morticon and Cale just said. Nighthawks, if you have any concern with what I said, just ignore it and assume my points to be Cale's and Morts. Honestly, what do I study all this for if I cannot articulate myself?!

[nighthawks]

not moving and not moving normally are not the same, though one may be considered a subset of the other (if anything, this grants validity of the bulk of your claims) - ATSKNF is obtuse and cumbersome due to the word normally if this is not needed in the first place. even if it is a copy/paste from 4th ed, the rules for regrouping are not that dissimilar between 4 and 5. And yes, Cale, I understand that you think I have been wrong on this for a long time. what else is new?

 

The movement granted by regrouping and restrictions on further movement are linked by the word "otherwise" even though they are in separate paragraphs.

 

The paragraph saying "may not otherwise move" is indicated as restrictions AFTER regrouping ("once a unit regrouped") and ATSKNF treats the events in the present tense ("that regroup") - further suggesting that the "not normal" movement is that allowed by regrouping.

 

Anyway, I can see I am outnumbered - a lot. and there are some familiar faces who tend not to back down, no matter how much a good argument may disagree with theirs, so I'm just going to wait on a FAQ here rather than get worked up about it. it's a benefit to me to have the rule as you all see it, but I still look at the language of both rules, from the specific word usage to the verb tenses and whole heartedly disagree.

[Brother Gothard]

Humor me. what word am I adding here:

 

"If a unit successfully passes its Leadership test ... it stops falling back and regroups. the unit can immediately move up to 3inches.

 

Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during the movement phase..."

 

"Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally ... but these restrictions do not apply."

 

the usual is: unit moves in a way that is not normal. agreed to by ATSKNF.

the not normal way is 3", and otherwise nothing, as stated by regrouping.

 

really, what am I missing?

 

nighthawks: I can see the point is becoming laboured, and we're reaching an exhausting of strategies here. After reading your last post, I was going to suggest that you lay out your vision of the process as Morticon did. Somehow, I missed your post that I quoted above, and you've more or less done what I thought might be helpful for us for you to do. One last time, I'll try to explain why I think you're wrong, as succinctly as possible.

 

First off, this last bit here is worded too confusingly for me (not necessarily your fault), so I'll not address it for fear of misinterpreting what you've said:

"the usual is: unit moves in a way that is not normal. agreed to by ATSKNF.

the not normal way is 3", and otherwise nothing, as stated by regrouping."

I can guess as to what you mean here, but I wont guess, because guessing will only hurt the argument.

 

Back on track:

 

It all hinges on this, I think:

 

[actual wording] "Usually, troops that regroup cannot move normally ... but these restrictions do not apply." From my point of view, this is to mean:

 

[my reading] "Usually, troops that regroup, and so may move 3", cannot move "normally" (as in their allowed movement rate). [blah blah blah] but these restrictions do not apply. So Marines get their allowed regroup movement, and then their regularly allowed movement rate."

 

As I understand, your point of view is that this means:

 

[your reading] "Usually troops that regroup may not move, and so will instead move 3". [blah blah blah] but these restrictions do not apply. So Marines may move as their normal movement rate allows, and therefore will not also move 3"."

 

While I am aware that these are rewritten statements of the actual wording of the rule, and may not be definitive to you on that grounds alone, I ask that you humour me. The only difference, as I see it, between our two readings, is that you believe the 3" replaces the "regularly allowed movement rate," while in mine the 3" movement is the consequent of regrouping, with no relation at all to the "regularly allowed movement rate."

 

If I am right that this is the only difference between us, then perhaps it is right that both sides back down. I cannot see what you see that supports your reading, and you either cannot see what I see in my reading, or believe that your reading is just more intuitive.

[Spacefrisian]

Aren't marines regouping automaticly anymore?

 

If they do so than you regroup before you even start youre move turn.

[angronn]

I think both sides have good points, and I was swayed back and forth whilst reading the topic (so much so that I feel seasick...!).

 

Like Legatus, I originally felt that someone was probably trying to pull a fast one, but having read the rules, and read all your posts, and thought hard, I think I follow the 9" theory.

 

Just to add my two pennies:

 

Note that on p.47, this paragraph:

 

If the unit successfully passes its Leadership test, it stops falling back and regroups. The unit can immediately move up to 3"...

 

is about regrouping.

 

This paragraph:

 

Once the unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move during that Movement phase, but otherwise it behaves as normal...

 

talks about what comes after regrouping (i.e. being able to move or not, which is where ATSKNF kicks in).

 

Therefore, the 3" movement is part of regrouping, and Morticon's very clear timeline seems to stand.

[Angel of Retribution]

Aren't marines regouping automaticly anymore?

 

If they do so than you regroup before you even start youre move turn.

 

As I understand it Space Marines regroup at the same time as every unit in the game regroups, at the beginning of that player's turn. They just don't need to roll for regrouping, they succeed automatically.

[WarpSpawn]

I think you'll find it's done just before moving the individual unit actually. If it was the beginning of the phase, it would probably make this debate a lot simpler to resolve as there would be a clearer seperation between this and normal movement.

[Angel of Retribution]

Right you are Sir!