Regrouping

[King_Pash]

Ok, I think there may be confusion on how people interpret when marines regroup. I have understood it as they regroup automatically in the beginning of the marine player's turn (since that is when a regroup test would normally be done). They they can consolidate 3" and shoot & assault as normal (if they were able to regroup as per "no enemy within 6" " restriction). Thoughts?

[Brother Gothard]

That's correct by my reading, Pash.

 

Before an SM unit moves, it automatically regroups, granting it a 3" consolidation move. It is then free to move and shoot totally as normal, as though it had not been falling back at all.

 

I do not see where people are getting that they cannot consolidate at all.

[SeattleDV8]

I don't beleive anyone is saying that Bro. G. Its the 9" movement granted to the marines after auto ralling that bothers me, I admit this seems wrong compared to 4th ED., but thinking on it I realised that the Marines were allowed to move 6" more than anyone else. this has not changed. Everyone now gets the 3" consoildation. The rule is not as unbalanced as I first beleived.

[Stormcaller3801]

Reading both rules in the BRB and the SM Codex, this appears to be the sequence:

 

1. At the very start of the Movement phase, before moving, the Space Marines attempt to Regroup. ATSKNF means they automatically pass this check.

 

2. Passing this check means that the unit may immediately move up to 3" and ignore difficult terrain checks.

 

3. "Once the unit has regrouped it cannot otherwise move" is pre-empted by ATSKNF, which describes this specific limitation and the 'counts as having moved' as not affecting the Space Marines.

 

4. The Marines are now free to move normally.

[Cale]

Stormcaller and Warpspawn (et al) have the clear right of this one. The Space Marines get a chance to regroup, at which they automatically succeed. They follow all the rules for regrouping, except those which restrict them from moving normally. Taking a 3" consolidation move after regrouping in no way restricts them from moving normally, so it is not ignored. Frankly, the counter-argument to this seems to have been exclusively the claim that, somehow, the 3" consolidate move is a restriction. As this is obviously nonsense, there doesn't seem to be much more to say.

[nighthawks]

correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the very simillar language in 4th agreed to mean that SMs stop falling back and may stand and fire as if they had not moved or move normally, where all other units that regroup concolidated 3", counted as having moved, and that was it?

 

the abnormal movement that ATSKNF nullifies IS the 3" consolodation AND lack of movement beyond that (I think we all can agree that this is "abnormal" movement). space marines, in contrast move normally (6" is all I can figgure is "normal" movement), not 3" consolodate + 6" normal movement. the paragraph splitting of the consolodation and movement after regrouping rules seems to me to be more for clarity of the sequence now, not a separation of the restrictions inherant to regrouping (general units).

 

the advantage of being able to NOT move and behave as such or move normally and still assault, compared with all other units being limited to 3", having moved, and no assaults is quite an advantage in and of itself. I am actually amazed that people think the wording suggests that we should get an additional 3" as well. it's not likely intended, and not obviously RAW to my eyes.

[WarpSpawn]

As I see it though, the problem with this thinking is that the rules for ATSKNF say they ignore restrictions on moving normally. To create a case for them not getting the 3" move, you need to construct an argument that says the 3" move is itself a restriction on moving normally. I do not see how this can be done within RAW.

 

The wording of the regrouping rules in no way says the 3" move replaces normal movement, it is simply a move granted to units regrouping. It is only after this that the restriction on normal movement is discussed and it is only the text regarding restrictions that ATSKNF negates.

 

If the rules said something to the effect of "can only move 3" instead of normal movement" or "normal movement is reduced to 3", there may be a good case to be made for ATSKNF negating the whole thing. It does not however say this, or anything I believe could be interpreted this way. I do not believe the seperate paragraphs are simply for clarity, but to seperate the effects caused by this rule. If they intended to incorporate the two effects into the overall movement restriction, it could have been said much clearer and in less words.

 

I also think it is worth remembering that the regroup move is not effected by difficult terrain, which illustrates to some degree that it is not part of normal movement. Not conclusive in itself but still evidence all the same.

[Stormcaller3801]

The problem with assuming that the 3" move is meant to be included is the specific wording in And They Shall Know No Fear:

 

Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or do not, but these restrictions do not apply to models subject to this special rule.

 

This sentence is definitive, stating the exact restrictions that it refers to in the first part and 'these restrictions' in the second part. This makes it difficult to apply the sentence to any other part of regrouping, simply because it takes pains to make clear what it is referring to.

 

An argument could be made that the 3" rule is included if it were part of either of the above, but in the 5th edition rulebook the 3" consolidation move is a separate step in the process of regrouping, taking place prior to the above listed restrictions. In order to incorporate it under the above quoted rule one would have to argue that the entire regrouping process is abandoned. That is completely contrary to the text for And They Shall Know No Fear, and is thus not a tenable argument.

[nighthawks]

I simply see the 3" along with the restrictions on actions (no assault) and terrian (no test) as "abnormal" movement. it occurs in the movement phase, it is the only allowed movement for normal units regrouping, and thus it does not follow the rules for normal movement.

 

marines don't suffer these restrictions - they may move normally. I get that everyone, here at least, thinks that the 3" consolodation is some sort of a bonus that happens outside of the restricted movement, and that ATSKNF is applied after, but it doesn't sit well with me. I don't see it that way in the text, as there are clear rules for movement ("normal"), there are clear rules for fallingback (in the movement phase), and there are clear rules for regrouping (in the movmement phase). Movement which occurs in the movement phase outside of "normal" movment rules IS movement, to abnormal though understood standards. to suggest that a marine exempt from these abnormalities (restrictions) would get both normal AND abnormal movement does not appear, to me, to be indicated in the text.

 

Additionally, the fact that the 3" consolidation move is not effected by difficult terrain is a "restriction" on the normal movement rules, as well, so by the common logic here, the space marine consolidation WOULD be slowed by not upholding this restriction. now, obviously, consolidation is a specific type of motion so has its own rules, as defined in regrouping. the fact that it replaces normal movement makes it a restriction to the typical movement phase rules. my argumebnt stands so far as I can see.

 

this same topic was argued in 4th, using almost identical wording from the texts and membership, and the concensus then was as I read it now. what has changed that I don't see?

[Stormcaller3801]

I wasn't here to sway the discussion with my amazing intelligence and wit? ^_^

 

I can't really offer an explanation for what has changed, in that I'm new. However, I think the specific wording of ATSKNF in the BRB and the 5th edition Regrouping rules are fairly clear as I've read them. I went looking for them with the intent of finding a reason why the 3" movement was not available, but in reading the rules I had to come to the conclusion that it was as I've stated.

 

If there is a precedent to this, I would be curious to see it if only due to the fact that I am personally unfamiliar with the 4th edition rules, having been away from the game since the Necron codex was new.

[WarpSpawn]

I don't understand how you can view being unaffected by difficult terrain as a restriction on movement. Being effected is a restriction. Being unaffected is releiving that normal restriction. However, even to somehow view it as one, all you are really saying is that marines would get the 3" but be effected by difficult terrain. Nonsense either way.

 

You also cannot describe it as "normal" movement.

 

ATSKNF removed the restriction on moving normally. It does not even address the issue of free, bonus movement that does not obey the normal rules of voluntary movement, therefore to say it denies marines this ability is wishful thinking at best.

[Mal]

ATSKNF removed the restriction on moving normally. It does not even address the issue of free, bonus movement that does not obey the normal rules of voluntary movement, therefore to say it denies marines this ability is wishful thinking at best.

 

Thats the crux exactly... but not as your seeing it...

 

The move of 3" is NOT a free movement, its a consolidation move that takes place after regrouping instead of being allowed to move normally.

 

Now the marines ARE allowed to move normally, so what your saying is they get the move for not moving normally, then move normally.... cheese much?

[WarpSpawn]

You contradict yourself.

 

If it replaces normal movement, it is not normal movement, but a substitute for normal movement. You cannot therefore say that to move normally as well, marines are moving normally twice. To move normally twice would give them a move of 12", not 9 (edit: which would also be effected by difficult terrain incidentally).

 

What I am saying is they get the abnormal movement from regrouping (the one that every model in the game that regroups gets), then they move normally by removing the restriction on normal movement.

 

I'm also going to have to challenge you to produce a single RAW quote to support your position.

[nighthawks]

the consolidation move replaces normal movement. whatever its rules, more or less limited that normal movement, the movement itself is restriced from the typical rules to those spcific for consolidations. that is not up for debate. just because the specific rules are more generous does not mean that the general rules have not been restricted.

 

space marines are not subject to these restrictions and move normally. normal movment is not begun with a 3", no terrain test consolidation move. the rules in the regrouping section and ATSKNF in C:SM are everything you need. Yes, every model gets the consolidations and can't move. BUT space marines CAN move as normal, so they don't get the restrictions, which include the consolidation.

 

the suggestion that the 3" movement is free and the "restriction" is the explicit forbidding of movement and assault I find amusing, but illogical. the RAW states the restrictions to movement, from normal, as discussed myriad times now. ATSKNF aleviates these restrictions. what else is there???

[ShinyRhino]

I'm on the fence on this one, but leaning toward supporting nighthawks on this one.

 

As I read it, a the beginning of the turn, you roll to regroup with a non-Marine unit. If they pass, they regroup, and get their 3" consolidation, after which they can shoot and assault.

However, Marines possess ATSKNF, which gives them a different regroup formula. They automatically regroup, and are then allowed to move their normal movement (NOT a consolidation movement), fire and/or assault.

 

Of course, it is also compelling to think that Marines auto-rally, which simply means they do not roll to regroup, and follow the same steps after regrouping that other units do, but also are allowed to move normally. So, 3" consolidation and 6" normal move. The problem I see with this is that the 3" consolidation IS a restriction on the abilities of a non-Marine unit. They forfeit their normal movement for the 3" consolidation. it seems unbalanced to me that marines could not only use the restricted 3" consolidation move, and pile their normal one on top of that.

 

This argument feels very much like a "have your cake and eat it too" situation. I'm not good with the whole RAW quotation thing, and honestly, always use some interpretation and common sense with my playing. So, I'm probably not helping any.

Oh well.

[Master Vandor]

But no where does it say that the 3" replaces normal movement. You are just inferring that.

 

Maybe it is because I've been playing fantasy more than 40k recently (for those who don't know in fantasy the movement phase has many sub-phases to it) but the way i interpret the rules at the start of the turn you check to rally, ATSKNF = auto rally. At this point you get your 3" rally move. From this point on it becomes just like any other movement phase. If you are not a SM you count as moving and can do no further movement that turn (maybe charging not got to double check that) if you are a SM with ATSKNF then your turn happens normally without restrictions.

 

My point is that perhaps those of us who support the 3" + 6" argument see these as two separate sub-phases whereas those folks who are on the other side of the argument view it all occurring at once and therefore the 3" doesn't happen because it is not normal movement.

[ShinyRhino]

Yeah, I can see that argumetna s valid, Brother Vandor. But unfortunately, there are no sub-phases in the 40K Movement phase.

/shrug. Still undecided here.

[WarpSpawn]

The problem with Nighthawks' argument (and anyone on his side) is that the 3" move is part of regrouping, not normal movement. You regroup, you get to move 3". It's that simple.

 

Normal movement is a seperate process that is normally denied by having regrouped. ATSKNF allows to to move normally. It does not effect the seperate but related process of regrouping. There is nothing in the text for ATSKNF to suggest it effects the process of regrouping, except in that it causes an auto-pass.

 

It is also worth noting that the text for ATSKNF does not in any way suggest that it takes away any movement granted, it merely gives back movement previously taken away. Regrouping does grant movement (as opposed to modifying existing movement), despite the fact that it also takes normal movement away. To have the effect some are suggesting, ATSKNF would have to explicitly take away the regroup move. This it does not do.

 

I do not see how any other interpretation can be supported by RAW and RAW quotes and references are pretty thin on the ground in posts by the opposition.

 

ShinyRhino,

 

There does not have to be sub-phases in the movement phase, simply multiple events applying to the same unit. Sub-phases is just a convenient way of illustrating the point.

[ShinyRhino]

Warpspawn:

 

Yeah,t hat does make sense now. It just feels wrong deep down in my guts. Of course, we ARE the finest warriors of the Imperium.

[Stormcaller3801]

the consolidation move replaces normal movement. whatever its rules, more or less limited that normal movement, the movement itself is restriced from the typical rules to those spcific for consolidations. that is not up for debate. just because the specific rules are more generous does not mean that the general rules have not been restricted.

 

It is worth noting two things: one, the 3" move during regrouping is not, to the best of my ability to find in the rules (although I do not have the text in front of me at the moment) a consolidation move. It is simply a 3" move. The word consolidation does not appear. And second, obviously this is up for debate, as we're doing so rather well I think. ;)

[WarpSpawn]

Well I'm even willing to admit that the net effect may be that normal movement is replaced by regroup movement (in most cases). Even so, what still cannot get away from though is that the rules for regrouping do not make it a straight swap, it is a 2 stage process that ultimately results in replacement of sorts.

 

The thing is, ATSKNF does not effect everything that regrouping does, it only addresses the restrictive second paragraph. It only addresses the denial of normal movement, not the granting of regroup move. I'm still waiting to see a rules quote or reference that even suggests otherwise.

[nighthawks]

The rule specifically states that restrictions on movement do not apply to models with ATSKNF. consolidation and forbiden regular movement are, as a whole, "restricted movement", and thus do not apply to space marines.

 

if the rule allowed the models to move where lesser models may not, then it would say "usually, models may not move after regrouping" not "may not move normally" moving 3" as described is not moving normally. The rule does not allow for the space marines to move both abnormally (as is standard for regrouping for non marines) and normally. you have to get one or the other as you are getting movement (normal or not).

[boreas]

Can marines shoot Heavy weapons if they elect not to move after regrouping through ATSKNF?

 

Phil

[Stormcaller3801]

The rule specifically states that restrictions on movement do not apply to models with ATSKNF. consolidation and forbiden regular movement are, as a whole, "restricted movement", and thus do not apply to space marines.

 

Again, it is not a consolidation move. It is a 3" move, without any sort of descriptor, as part of regrouping.

 

Regrouping states that after regrouping models may not move normally and count as having moved. ATSKNF states that "Usually troops that regroup cannot move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not," which is a direct reference to that part of the regrouping rules.

 

This:

 

not "may not move normally" moving 3" as described is not moving normally.

 

Makes no sense.

 

Moving normally refers to the standard 6" movement that is available to all infantry models. It is something entirely separate from regrouping, and has a very specific definition with regards to the game rules. There is no text that suggests that the Marines lose the 3" move intrinsic to regrouping- it states instead that the normal movement (i.e. the standard 6") is not denied to Space Marines and they do not automatically count as having moved as part of regrouping.

 

Again, the only way that your argument makes sense is to declare that the entire section of rules regarding regrouping is ignored and instead the Marines act as normal, gaining their 6" movement and being treated in all ways as if they had not fallen back at all. This is entirely inconsistent with the text, and therefore has no basis on which to stand.

[Stormcaller3801]

Can marines shoot Heavy weapons if they elect not to move after regrouping through ATSKNF?

 

Phil

 

Because ATSKNF states that Marines who regroup do not (as part of regrouping) count as having moved, one would assume so, yes. Which means that potentially a unit of Devastators could be engaged, lose the combat, use Combat Tactics to fall back 12", use ATSKNF to move 3" further away from their opponents, and then proceed to fire their heavy weapons at their assailants from 15" distant without having counted as moved at all.