Reply from Jervis Johnson

[Chengar Qordath]

To be fair, I don't think GKs were intended to be a CC army since they are armed with Storm Bolters. They are supposed to be good at CC, but I don't think they are supposed to be the best.

 

Well, to me it seems like the Grey Knights were built to be fairly balanced between shooting and cc; I've been running my force of them as shooty vs. assault-oriented armies and assaulty vs. shooting armies, and they can do pretty well in either role.

[Pyriel]

Actually, Tactical Marines got more out of their cost than Battle Sisters did back in 4E at least. Sisters cost 11 points, Tacs cost 15-- and for those four points, Tactical Marines got +1S, +1T, +tI, and +1Ws in comparison to the Sisters. That, my friend, is a bargain price for such a large increase in stats. It's really only the Exorcist and the Acts of Faith that, when properly used, allow Sisters to be competative in my eyes.

Lets see about sisters then.

Using this argumentation sisters are a genuine bargain over storm troopers as tehy get a power armour and a bolter for only 1p.

[Melissia]

Which I would never disagree with. Stormtroopers are pretty worthless in a C:WH army.

[Zealadin]

I dunno, GK also have issues.

FA (Tele) PAGK's are not useable, Purg Squads are basically held as a waste of points

Horrible radical choices.

Alot of overpriced units due to codex creep. Rules that no longer apply, or are a crutch not an advantage.

 

I mean the fearless rule for GK alone hits pretty hard, obviously against some units this kind of nerf was probably necesary with other changes, but in other/our cases its just rediculous.

 

I think alot of people feel that a simple review of many outdated rules, unit costs, and unit stats/special rules could cure the majority of issues we are currently facing, not just for DH for the WH as well.

I guess if your expecting new units to be released, then yes the fixes could take a while to be properly formulated and balanced, as well as the miniatures created.

The real question is, do we want everything we have got fixed, or do we want new and improved stuff? I'd say that GWS is thinking the latter.

 

I saw a release stating that these two armies will be receiving new codexs (each) in the future (next day to 20 years) but that Xeno hunters won't be. It was linked in one of the forums somewhere.

[- 7eAL -]

Which I would never disagree with. Stormtroopers are pretty worthless in a C:WH army.

Because Radicals are underrepresented; Sisters do all the same things that Stormtroopers do and in order for them to see general and common use, the Stormtroopers should do what Sisters cannot do.

[Zealadin]

It is just me or are all armies in general being pidgeon-holed into less and less viable choices if they want to remain truly competitive, its never bothered me because I look for stuff I want to paint first, and then work out an army to lose spectacularly with, but it just seems to me that a gap is growing between the bread and butter units in this edition, especially with troops being so important, and everything else, obviously vehicles notice this less, but when your looking at units with a small advantage over your normal troops, at a higher cost, but without the troop's choice ability to capture.... suddenly those points equate better into pure troops, leading to more bland, boring, and winning centric armies...

 

Just my 2c but it seems that having fun and making a cool army is slowly giving way to the horrible win at all costs mentality, and GWS are helping punt it in that direction with each new release.

Its probably great for sales, since I know alot of people come and buy each new powerful army that suddenly has all these advantages due to just being released, but the codex creep is becoming a joke.

[Venenum]

but the codex creep is becoming a joke.

 

It also sells models.

 

 

To be fair - GW is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

 

The recent DA & BA codicies were great. In many ways the codex in style in art and in design was a return to 2nd edition. One could hardly claim either of those were overpowered in any way. Personally i think they would have been the perfect template for the new SM codex. Yet, when word of these books went around the players wailed aloud, tore their hair and rent their clothes. So GW came out with a new codex which which wouldn't be subject to the complaints of the last product. And then their was more complaining. Makes you wonder why the studio doesn't completely give up on the topic of what anyone else thinks.

 

...But a moment for cold hard realism. GW is a business. They need to make money by selling models. The whole of everything else they do, the art, the background, *all* of the books, as well the 40k and WFB games themselves, all exist in order to sell us models.

 

 

-Venenum

[Melissia]

And they can avoid quite a bit of the wailing and gnashing of teeth by, when they get to work on C:GK and C:SoB, focusing on 1: Making the less useful units and upgrades in the codices competative, and 2: adding in new units to increase variety in the codices. Doing both of these will inspire more model sales (for example, making Sisters Repentia worth getting would make C:WH players go and buy more of them), and they'll also inspire more customer good will towards the company because the army is now more competative and has more ways to play it, and thus more fun to play.

[- 7eAL -]

Unfortunately the difficulty for Games Workshop is that they use a system which limits the changes they can make at any given time; if shortly after release they decide that they overbalanced or ran print errors and need to make minor tweaks, they are not permitted to release FAQ and update documents for free despite the general positive reaction they would get. They do not even notify players when different print versions run off, which caused problems with the 3rd Edition Chaos codex for example. Also, the faster their response time to FAQ and rules issues, the closer their connection to the general customer base. This would be more positive for players and would help build a larger, better-connected player community. Games Workshop does not have a history of making the best executive decisions.

 

Knowing the way that Games Workshop is wont to behave, they most likely will not notice the significance of some of the changes they make until well after the product is released, and not all at once either. This would produce a "patch" for every minor change, and by now we would see numerous tiny updates for every codex scattered over the last years. "3.04?" "Oh that's the June update, you're on 3.05 now."

[Coppella]

Its certainly a really hard act to juggle. I can understand that GW is a business, and needs to make money. Thats a given, but one thing that companies have certainly put a lot of effort into is customer service.

Space marines are the biggest bulk of their customers, so they do get royal treatment. At this point though, GW can/should be able to afford balancing everything, and updating armies that need it. I was thrilled to hear about Dark Eldar model line in the works. It somewhat proves what I'm saying. They do appear on planning to bring everything up to speed. With the 40k system, and shear amount of armies out there, it takes a lot of work to balance and counter-balance things. Yes, we need to be a little easy on them at times.

Now that I've said that, in my opinion, GW could be quicker for fixing some of the smaller issues. Things like DH assault cannons, and standardized rhinos and other transports. Some wargear rewording/reworks, etc. might be needed. Things that are not game breaking, but certainly provide a little help to older armies. I'm an SoB player, my Rhinos are a couple points cheaper than a Predator tank.

Basically I'd like to see GW giving the royal treatment to all their products. If all armies are competetive, really fun and full of character, than wouldn't that promote a wider variety of models being sold? Wouldn't that generate more profit? Which also means customers are not only seeing space marines when they play at the local club. It is pretty boring knowing that I'll be facing Space marines when I head into the local club. I do get the occasional surprise at times. All in all, I just think there is a lot more benefit from applying the paint eveningly across all armies.

 

[side note - I don't know how many times I've gone into my local GW store and saw space marine -vs- space marine battles. Warhammer Fantasy seems to have gotten by this. I when I see people playing Fantasy, its always a variety.]

[Inq. Enmerich Von Vattle]

oops wrong stat listed... that'll teach me!! lol

 

anyhew... as stated, when out of combat, they are effectively a marine for 4 points less!! and thats what I use them as, and when they do get into combat, you can have them in upto 20 strong squads... personally I'd not like the thought of having to charge a 20 strong unit wearing power armour. not without drastically reducing their number in shooting first.... but thats one of the biggest bonuses to sisters, cheap(ish) models with power armour and a boltgun... what more could you ask for?

 

...and Girls in Bikes :blink:

[Coppella]

oops wrong stat listed... that'll teach me!! lol

 

anyhew... as stated, when out of combat, they are effectively a marine for 4 points less!! and thats what I use them as, and when they do get into combat, you can have them in upto 20 strong squads... personally I'd not like the thought of having to charge a 20 strong unit wearing power armour. not without drastically reducing their number in shooting first.... but thats one of the biggest bonuses to sisters, cheap(ish) models with power armour and a boltgun... what more could you ask for?

 

...and Girls in Bikes :blink:

 

I'm working on that actually. Sister Boltgun Mary is still in the concept stages. Modified scout bike is what I'm starting with.

[the jeske]

Wouldn't that generate more profit?

nope . GW thinks that metal armies like WH/DH are for cra... I mean for collectors. And GW thinks that even if those wouldnt have no rules at all they would still buy them . the other part is people buying single models or single squads , again GW decided that people would buy those anyway no matter what rules. there more or less ingore what happens to people that already bought whole armies etc as the chance of those people still buying more stuff for the collectors army is rather slim .

[Melissia]

nope . GW thinks that metal armies like WH/DH are for cra... I mean for collectors. And GW thinks that even if those wouldnt have no rules at all they would still buy them . the other part is people buying single models or single squads , again GW decided that people would buy those anyway no matter what rules. there more or less ingore what happens to people that already bought whole armies etc as the chance of those people still buying more stuff for the collectors army is rather slim .

If this were indeed the case, I would call them delusional.

[the jeske]

I dont think so . they make money out of sm, books/codex , everything else . metal models have molds that cost more to make + they dont sell so well[well no wonder considering you need 4 times the cash to make a semi playable army]. Its a good strategy for GW , but sucks for WH/DH players . specially those that already got an army and would like to get new stuff [some special characters , promo models , new tanks etc].

[Pyriel]

Making crappy units and choices viable again by making them better is just one thing of new codex builds.

Another thing to be included in any new codex is the nerfing and removing of over abused things in the current versions.

GW proved to make this a high priority with the SM codex.

[ripath]

It is pretty boring knowing that I'll be facing Space marines when I head into the local club.

 

:lol: I guess I'm just a lucky enough b@stard to say that my local gaming club/store has

1 ork player

2 SoB players

1 Tyranid player(that I know of and keep a can of raid in my army case for)

1 DA player

1 SM player

1 chaos player

1 Eldar player

1 DH player(thats me)

 

So strangely I hardly ever see SM on the opposite table edge. Most of the time it's either nids or orks.

 

But on to this letter. You say JJ actually responded to us? like Jervis Johnson, not Andy who goes on this board and listens to us in our more intelligent moments. The Jervis Johnson that Number 6 tells will not swim across the atlantic, kick down my door, and demand that I play by raw standard? Bah that is like saying that squats are still going to come back. jk lol it's nice to see some positive feedback. Note to all other people that these "little" steps that Games workshop takes do lead somewhere, we just have to make sure that they keep taking them!

 

 

We'll make it to the pub on the corner yet!

[Melissia]

I dont think so . they make money out of sm, books/codex , everything else . metal models have molds that cost more to make + they dont sell so well[well no wonder considering you need 4 times the cash to make a semi playable army]. Its a good strategy for GW , but sucks for WH/DH players . specially those that already got an army and would like to get new stuff [some special characters , promo models , new tanks etc].

Delusional still. Enticing those who actually play the armies to buy more models by making said models more attractive in the rules is a win/win situation.

 

For example, their making of ten man Marine squads more attractive. People are, with 5E, more likely to use ten man Marine squads instead of fire, and thus purchase more models than normal (for the most part). Similarly, them making Repentia worth taking would make them more attractive to purchase as well.

[Coppella]

It is pretty boring knowing that I'll be facing Space marines when I head into the local club.

 

:) I guess I'm just a lucky enough b@stard to say that my local gaming club/store has

1 ork player

2 SoB players

1 Tyranid player(that I know of and keep a can of raid in my army case for)

1 DA player

1 SM player

1 chaos player

1 Eldar player

1 DH player(thats me)

 

So strangely I hardly ever see SM on the opposite table edge. Most of the time it's either nids or orks.

 

But on to this letter. You say JJ actually responded to us? like Jervis Johnson, not Andy who goes on this board and listens to us in our more intelligent moments. The Jervis Johnson that Number 6 tells will not swim across the atlantic, kick down my door, and demand that I play by raw standard? Bah that is like saying that squats are still going to come back. jk lol it's nice to see some positive feedback. Note to all other people that these "little" steps that Games workshop takes do lead somewhere, we just have to make sure that they keep taking them!

 

 

We'll make it to the pub on the corner yet!

 

So true, so true. Now if only you the pub was not so far away. Around here there are about 20-25 marine players. The rest end up lookin a little like this:

1 SoB player (thats me) and a couple people wanting to start one (i might of had some influence here)

10 Chaos

2 Nid

1 Tau

4 Ork

3 Eldar

1 Dark Eldar

8-10 IG players (though I haven't seen any of em in a long time)

1 Necron (doesn't show up to play much)

And most of these people have a 1500-2000 Space marine army in addition to these. Even I had a Blood Angels army back in the day, although that got sold off, and shall remained buried in the dust of time. Never to be seen again, ever. (yes it was that horrible looking).

[the jeske]

For example, their making of ten man Marine squads more attractive. People are, with 5E, more likely to use ten man Marine squads instead of fire, and thus purchase more models than normal (for the most part). Similarly, them making Repentia worth taking would make them more attractive to purchase as well.

yes but sm tactical will sell . everyone plays sm . go in to a GW shop and ask about a starter army for w40k ? they will give you sm . Tacticals also sell because they re made the rules so that people who played with 5 man squads had to buy extra models [so even young vets had to buy 2 boxs] . Repenetia will never sell [specially in metal] , unless they would make them broken[lets say they would make them 6pts each . everyone would use a unit of 20 then]. Also do you own repentia ? most sob players do, even if they are unplayable. GW is models selling company firsts and a rules second [well they say it . i would say that rules is fourth , maybe fifth on their list of important stuff] . after you buy repentia they stop carring what you do with them . And people like JJ will always say , that if you dont find the repentia not cool enough in rules[and he will probablly say thats not true here, you just have to use more tactics using them] , then you can put any changes you want and your cool w40k co players , all of them cool and understanding , will say ok . Yeah JJ is a man who lives in a world like this .

[Melissia]

Yes, after I buy repentia they don't care what I do with them. But I haven't bought any yet because they're useless, like quite a few other Sisters players I know.

[- 7eAL -]

Are you saying that other Sisters players are useless, or that other Sisters players agree that Repentia are useless?

[Melissia]

The latter of course (that the Repentia are worthless, thus few people that I know own them and fewer still in any decent quantity). Sorry for the bad wording.

[Shido]

Haha you made me laugh there Melissia, great wording. :P

 

As for Repentia, I do not own any SoB (yet anyway) as I'm a BA successor chapter player but even I know how useless they are in most games. If and when GW revise the WH codex and release a new one they will definetly change them up I think, as you've said, not many people buy them as they are quite expensive and useless and the people who do buy them are either crazy (joking here :P) or they buy them because they, look good and they want to have some of every unit in their army painted up to look good in a display cabinet, a bit like Honor Guard for Space Marines, they look good but how many times would you actually use them. Probably not alot, unless its a big point game or Apoc where you can just field everything you've got and don't really care if they are useful or not as it's some models on the board because there are more useful choices to take in any normal game that will just do better.

 

I just can't see how GW would sell alot of them if the rules of them are as they are now, it would make more sense to make them better within the game to sell more of them. They need to sell models in order to make a profit so as you've said, its a win-win situation if they have players using more of them by making them viable and also making them more of an attractive buy in the process of doing that.

 

Personally, if and when I do start the Sisters army, I won't I won't be buying them until I have absolutely nothing left that I want to add to the army. Unless of course the new codex comes out and they are viable to take. :lol:

 

- Shido

[Coppella]

I own some repentia, but they don't get used as repentia. They get used as fanatics in mobs of Zealots. I bought Fantasy Empire flagellants to use as Zealots. Hey, look at that. Zealots are a cool unit, not bad table top wise, awesome fluff, and look pretty cool to boot.

Hmm, odd how a unit that doesn't even have models made for em, managed to make GW some cash.

From a business view, I can see why Space marines where babied. They were the cash cow to get a stable base. As it stands now, they don't really/shouldn't baby them, and work on maximizing all armies. They can afford to expand and generate profit from all model ranges. That means they'll be getting more money per casting molds. Means more profit, as well as a large player base.

Marines are great starter armies, easy to learn, forgiving, and pretty straight forward. As most players learn more they see Marines can be so much more though. Or another army catches their eye.