librarian teleporting

[Ming]

Is there precedent for another 40K unit being able to leave CC/HTH without penalty (other than vehicles)?

 

I expect a GW FAQ addressing this spell.

 

Things we do know - at the beginning of the player turn movement phase, the librarian and unit he is attached to is moved to the deep striking location and a deep strike scatter roll is made to check scatter and see if any attached model is lost in the warp. The unit then counts for the turn as having arrived by deep strike (no further movement in the movement phase, counts as having moved).

 

Things I would expect via a FAQ -

 

1. If at the beginning of the player turn the librarian is attached to a unit (in coherency with it), he cannot separate from them to gate on his own and leave them behind.

2. If there is precedence for "moving out as heck a locked CC" then I'd expect that to be a possibility, maybe as if "choosing to fail a morale check" - break off penalties might be applicable - like having to roll armor saves.

3. I'd expect that beacons or homers would not be useful to a small group of infantry gating through the warp. I've never heard that terminators teleport via psychic means, and beacons are homing signals for deployed machines to arrive at. Niether seems to have been described as warp-affecting...although (heresy) some chaos wargear / models have the capability to act as warp beacons for daemons...

 

I'd love to see the Dex designer explain this one as to what his real intent of the rule was...

[Seahawk]

Is there precedent for another 40K unit being able to leave CC/HTH without penalty (other than vehicles)?

 

Of course. Necrons can either use Veil of Darkness to leave combat, or get vacuumed up by Monoliths. This works exactly the same as Gate, at least in what it essentially does.

[SeattleDV8]

The difference is that VoD gives permission to leave CC, the SM power does not speak to it at all.

[Mordekiem]

Is there precedent for another 40K unit being able to leave CC/HTH without penalty (other than vehicles)?

 

Of course. Necrons can either use Veil of Darkness to leave combat, or get vacuumed up by Monoliths. This works exactly the same as Gate, at least in what it essentially does.

Skyleap (eldar codex pg 35) also uses almost the exact same verbiage as GoI. And then it goes on to say what the enemy does if you leave CC implying that it can be used while in CC. GoI doesn't have that extra part, but there is no reason you need it. That only explains what the bad guys get to do.

 

The key parts is that you can cast psychic powers while in CC. Once the power is cast you do what it tells you to do. It doesn't matter if it counts as movement or not because the codex rules would override the rulebook anyways if the two clash.

 

If you want to provide even further proof for using GoI while in CC the power actually says you remove the models from the table and then place them using the DS rules. You can remove models from the table while in CC as it is not movement. So even if you consider DS to be movement (debatable) is doesn;t matter because by the time they DS they are no longer in CC.

[SeattleDV8]

Without the specific rule spelled out in the codex we have to go by BRB. All of the powers and abilities you use as examples do have specific rules, or in the skyleap wording to show that happens if you do.

[wisdom like silence]

Damn. Gate just became a hell of a lot more useful.

 

Let me clarify this - the crux of this is that the power is stated to be used at the beginning of the Movement phase and, though he can't move in it, the Librarian still gets a Movement phase. Is this supported by anything in the rules?

Nothing in the rules say that you don't get a Movement Phase while locked in combat. It's simply stated that models locked in close combat may not move in the Movement Phase. This, of course, brings up the question of whether Gate of Infinity is considered a move, or not.

[Mordekiem]

Damn. Gate just became a hell of a lot more useful.

 

Let me clarify this - the crux of this is that the power is stated to be used at the beginning of the Movement phase and, though he can't move in it, the Librarian still gets a Movement phase. Is this supported by anything in the rules?

Nothing in the rules say that you don't get a Movement Phase while locked in combat. It's simply stated that models locked in close combat may not move in the Movement Phase. This, of course, brings up the question of whether Gate of Infinity is considered a move, or not.

Frankly it doesn't matter if it counts as movement. The real question is does the effect of GoI counteract the rule in the BRB?

 

The key to this whole thing is what is the Librarian doing?

1. He uses a power.

This is completely legal since the power is a non-shooting power.

 

2. the effect of the power says to remove the models from the tabletop and place them with the deepstrike rules.

First, removing models from the tabletop is not movement. Once they are removed they are no longer in CC so they are free to move. Assuming that you consider deepstriking movement (which is debatable).

 

3. If two rules contradict each other you go with Codex over the rulebook.

So even if you consider that removing and deepstriking with models is movement while they are locked in CC then you have a contradiction. The rulebook says no moving while in CC while the codex says they must move. In which case the codex wins.

 

Without the specific rule spelled out in the codex we have to go by BRB. All of the powers and abilities you use as examples do have specific rules, or in the skyleap wording to show that happens if you do.

Actually, Skyleap tells the enemy what to do. It doesn't make a single mention of skyleap being allowed while in CC or what to do if the Hawks are in CC. GoI doesn't tell the enemy what to do. So with the absence of rules the enemy does nothing. The actual wording about how the rule works for the hawks is almost identical to the wording for GoI.

[nighthawks]

there is still a lot to assume, and I'm not sure I follow you on 3, but I agree that this fits within the restrictions for powers used in assault.

 

I would suggest that the enemy consolidate, as per usual end of combat.

[Mordekiem]

there is still a lot to assume, and I'm not sure I follow you on 3, but I agree that this fits within the restrictions for powers used in assault.

 

I would suggest that the enemy consolidate, as per usual end of combat.

I believe the BRB actually addresses this. The enemy should consolidate in the assault phase since it is no longer locked with an enemy in CC. So really, the codex doesn't need to say anything since the BRB already addresses this.

[rekrulcinam]

Then please provide the proof that individual units have individual movment phases. Please provide rule book quote that allows for this possibility.

 

Pg. 11, BRB, under TURNING AND FACING:

Infantry models can also be turned to face their targets in the Shooting phase, so don't worry about which way they are pointing at the end of their Movement phase...

Emphasis mine.

 

This line indicates to me that each unit does, indeed, have their own movement phase. As such, this would indicate to me, that you can move other units around before using the Librarians Gate of Infinity, which is described as being used at the beginning of the librarian's movement phase.

 

For further support:

 

Pg. 12, under UNIT COHERENCY

If this happens, the models in the unit must be moved in such a way that they restore coherency in their next Movement phase.

[nighthawks]

there is nothing that you quoted that specifies specific models OTHER THAN the librarian quote. it is a linguistic convention to say "their movement phase" rather than "the army's movement phase." as the next available movement phase for them is theirs, as well as the rest of the army's.

 

find a quote within the movement rules that suggests that each models have individual movement phases. they do not, there is only pne movement phase per player turn. things that happen at the beginning of the phase for a model or a unit happen at the beginning of the overall phase regardless of the wording "his/theirs/the movement phase."

 

many pecident examples exist to back up this format of rulesmaking within the rule set that are not so weakly worded. this is not an argument for or against, simply a statement that the writers do tend to make simillar capabilities work with simillar rule mechanics and activation times.

[williamdelgray]

This power is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase. The Librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deep strike rules. [blah blah] (survivors scatter normally)

 

Gate of Infinity, not specifying you can use it in CC.

 

Now the Veil of Darkness

 

Necron Lord may use VoD at hte start of its Movement phase instead of moving normally. [stuff about necrons and deep striking] The Veil may be used even if enemy models are in base contact with the Necron Lord or any of the Necrons that move with him (enemy left behind).

 

Since the Veil specifies the use in base to base contact, it is allowed.

Since the Gate does not, I believe it does not get to be used in base to base contact.

[Mordekiem]

This power is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase. The Librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deep strike rules. [blah blah] (survivors scatter normally)

 

Gate of Infinity, not specifying you can use it in CC.

 

Now the Veil of Darkness

 

Necron Lord may use VoD at hte start of its Movement phase instead of moving normally. [stuff about necrons and deep striking] The Veil may be used even if enemy models are in base contact with the Necron Lord or any of the Necrons that move with him (enemy left behind).

 

Since the Veil specifies the use in base to base contact, it is allowed.

Since the Gate does not, I believe it does not get to be used in base to base contact.

You can use non-shooting psychic powers in CC unless the power itself forbids it.

 

Also remember that VoD is NOT a psychic power.

[nighthawks]

This power is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase. The Librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deep strike rules. [blah blah] (survivors scatter normally)

 

Gate of Infinity, not specifying you can use it in CC.

 

Now the Veil of Darkness

 

Necron Lord may use VoD at hte start of its Movement phase instead of moving normally. [stuff about necrons and deep striking] The Veil may be used even if enemy models are in base contact with the Necron Lord or any of the Necrons that move with him (enemy left behind).

 

Since the Veil specifies the use in base to base contact, it is allowed.

Since the Gate does not, I believe it does not get to be used in base to base contact.

 

Also remember that VoD is NOT a psychic power.

also remember that we are on the 2nd NEW ruleset since the writing of codex: Necrons, so it's not exactly an up to date precedent.

[rekrulcinam]

there is nothing that you quoted that specifies specific models OTHER THAN the librarian quote. it is a linguistic convention to say "their movement phase" rather than "the army's movement phase." as the next available movement phase for them is theirs, as well as the rest of the army's.

 

find a quote within the movement rules that suggests that each models have individual movement phases. they do not, there is only pne movement phase per player turn. things that happen at the beginning of the phase for a model or a unit happen at the beginning of the overall phase regardless of the wording "his/theirs/the movement phase."

 

many pecident examples exist to back up this format of rulesmaking within the rule set that are not so weakly worded. this is not an argument for or against, simply a statement that the writers do tend to make simillar capabilities work with simillar rule mechanics and activation times.

 

Prove it. Prove that the movement phase isn't broken down into each unit's individual movement phase. The quotes from the rulebook, and the GoI entry both indicate that it is.

[Seahawk]

Haha, ummm....

 

"The player can move any of his units that are capable of doing so" pg9

 

"In his turn, a player may move any of his units - all of them if he wishes" pg11

 

 

So, in actuality, there's nothing in the rulebook to indicate that a librarian gets his own movement phase, that dreadnought gets his own movement phase, etc. Everything is moved at once; it's merely the limitations of humans beings and our two hands that forces you to move unit by unit. Now if we were like Tzeentch and had as many arms as we felt like, there wouldn't be a problem.

 

I do know a game where it's clearly defined that each unit has its own movement phase in the way you describe it: Warmachine. Of course, each has its own shooting phase and the like as well...

[nighthawks]

what he said.

 

rekrulcinam, I need prove nothing as the concept of a model or unit having it's own movement phase is novel and non-obvious to most of us, as there is no widely known way to support it within the main rules, only a quote in a special rule outside of the BRB and passges outside of the movement rules within the BRB.

 

when having a debate and injecting evidence or statements to be taken as fact that are seen as contradictory to the pre-established concensus, a substantiating argument for your position is required, if not by formality, than by convention. the individual movement phases concept is your assertion, you prove it.

[Mordekiem]

I think it is likely that GW meant that the start of the librarians movement phase was the start of the players movement phase. My guess is that they meant the librarians movement phase is the movement phase in which he can move. IE that players. I think this is the most reasonable interpretation.

 

However, GW may have meant that the power needed to be cast before the Librarian moved. And the wording is ambigious enough that an argument can be made for this.

[Vaaish]

I would say that there is a single movement phase and GW simply meant before you move the librarian you use the power. Nothing in the wording refers to whether he is actually capable of movement, just the power us used before he moves. I think that's to prevent the librarian and posse from having effective 30" movement.

[maniclurker]

edit- After reviewing the codex, I've decided to go with what I originally thought was how it worked, as is the way everyone agrees with here. I honestly can't even remember why I thought it was any different.

[Cadarn]

Prove it. Prove that the movement phase isn't broken down into each unit's individual movement phase. The quotes from the rulebook, and the GoI entry both indicate that it is.

 

No, no they don't. The rule book lists one movement phase per player turn. Not one per unit. You are taking a turn of phrase and twisting its wording. By the argument you're using, it would imply that each unit also has its own Assault phase. If that were the case then a unit would be able to declare, charge, resolve its combat and consolidate, then after that, another unit would be able to declare, charge, resolve its combat and consolidate. This does not happen. All units charge in, then all units resolve combat.

 

The rules try to imply that all things happen at the same time. One unit does not politely stand aside and wait for another to do its thing before acting.

[Praeger]

GUYS ENOUGH

 

there is to be NO MORE talking about units having individual movment phases in this topic.

 

General consensus is that they dont - even manic who raised the issue has now agreed that it was just a mis-read etc.

 

SO ENOUGH.

 

Either agree with what everyone says, or start a new topic (and expect it too get closed if it gets too heated).

 

Anyone who posts about this issue in THIS thread WILL HAVE THEIR POST DELETED COMPLETLY.

[Br.Pat]

there is still a lot to assume, and I'm not sure I follow you on 3, but I agree that this fits within the restrictions for powers used in assault.

 

I would suggest that the enemy consolidate, as per usual end of combat.

 

 

In Official Games Workshop tournaments the Codex always overrules the rulebook.

[nighthawks]

In Official Games Workshop tournaments the Codex always overrules the rulebook.

As it should. specific always overrules the general. without a specific rule to use, though, one must fall back on the general. consolidation it is.

[williamdelgray]

You can use non-shooting psychic powers in CC unless the power itself forbids it.

 

Also remember that VoD is NOT a psychic power.

 

True VoD is not a psychic power, but it does say it can be used while in CC during the movement phase.

It argues, can you move while in assault?

 

But, I see that Force Dome is used at the beginning the Librarians Movement phase. And this is where my argument seems to fall apart. Would I allow Force Dome to be used in CC and not GoI? Or while locked in CC can you use a psychic power that states in the assault phase but you are locked in CC?

(I blame GW)

But I would hold that if locked in CC you're to busy to really do much unless the rule specified that you could. (But that's just me)

 

also remember that we are on the 2nd NEW ruleset since the writing of codex: Necrons, so it's not exactly an up to date precedent.

 

But I thought it was made with fourth in mind, similar to how C:CSM was made with fifth in mind but still fourth.