invulnerable saves

[Fury_of_Fenris]

hey there guys ive never eally understood what invulnerable saves are i was looking at the new legion of the damned or whatever theyre called in the new codex and it says there save is invulnerable so does that mean only ap3 wepaons can hurt them?

[Black_Sky]

See page 20 of the little black book.

 

You always get an invulnerable save, except if the weapon that wounds has a line in it's description saying that it ignores these.

[Gurth]

hey there guys ive never eally understood what invulnerable saves are i was looking at the new legion of the damned or whatever theyre called in the new codex and it says there save is invulnerable so does that mean only ap3 wepaons can hurt them?

No, in short it means LotD can always roll a save, even against AP 1, 2 or 3 weapons (which normal space marines cannot do).

[ChaosInCommorragh]

erm i may be wrong as i dont have the new marine codex but does that mean the psycannon will completely ignore the saves on these guys?

[Gurth]

Not sure — the rules for the psycannon in Codex: Daemonhunters says it ignores invulnerable saves, but normal saves may be taken against it. I think the author of that rule was thinking of models like terminators that have a normal and an invulnerable save, so they could roll their normal save but not their invulnerable save. Slightly odd rule, because invulnerable saves are never better than normal saves (why else would you have a normal save as well as an invulnerable one?) and so the psycannon's AP will either negate the normal save, leaving you saveless, or you would use your normal save against it anyway rather than your invulnerable one you're not allowed to take …

 

In any case this is not really an issue in this specific case, since a psycannon's AP is enough to ignore space marines' normal saves anyway, so neither a regular marine nor a LotD marine would get a save against it.

[Mal]

psycannon is only AP4, so unless you've got a scout with an inv save then you get your normal armour save.... of course teh psycannon is str 6 and fires 3 times.... but its also the only heavy GK's get....

[ChaosInCommorragh]

ah ok i just wasnt sure as to whether the LoTD marines had a 3+invulnerable (only if they wanted to use it) or if it always counted as invulnerable therefore had no choice..

i just a flashback of the turboboosting bike rule which there was alot of controversy about in 4th ed

[Morticon]

psycannon is only AP4, so unless you've got a scout with an inv save then you get your normal armour save.... of course teh psycannon is str 6 and fires 3 times.... but its also the only heavy GK's get....

 

Mal - the Legion of the Damned do not have a 3+ armour save, they only have a 3+ invulnerable.

So yes....psycannons would eat them.

 

This view was supported too by the latest UK GT FAQ. >_<

[Wolf89]

It's obvious intention was for daemons which most only have invulnerable saves, but has since become stronger and stronger. -_-

[Blood Scorpion]

A good enough AP Value only prevents a model's Armour Save, and has no bearing on their Invulnerable Save (or Cover Save for that matter), so the AP4 of a Psycannon is not relevant when shooting a model/unit with an Invulnerable Save only, such as the LotD or Deamons.

 

Any weapons that ignore Invulnerable Saves, ignore all Invulnerable Saves, whether this be 2+, 3+, 4+, 5+ or 6+. The AP Value of the weapon does not come into it. This is exactly the same with weapons that ignore Cover Saves, regardless of what the AP value of the weapon is or the Cover Save of the model/unit, all Cover Saves are ignored.

 

Therefore, if the LotD unit was shot at by a Psycannon, they would get no Armour Save as they don't have one and they'd get no Invulnerable Save as the Psycannon ignores Invulnerable Saves. The only save they'd get is a Cover Save but only if they qualify for one.

 

Hope this makes it clear.

[eyescrossed]

What about Eldar psykers, ya gumbies?

I field a Seer Council and they're damn near invulnerable after I increase their save to 3+ with a Bonesinger and Fortune them.

A 3+ re-rollable invulnerable for the standard 'uns and a 2+ re-rollable inv. for Eldrad.

Psycannons are the bane of this 1060 point unit...

[Blood Scorpion]

Ouch! Do they not have any Armour Save? I guess that they have Toughness 3 too, so a strentgh 6 Psycannon hit will wound and kill outright on a 2+, unless they are immune to Instant Death!

 

Better keep them in cover then, although watch out for those Incinerators that ignore Invulnerable and Cover Saves!

[Gurth]

the AP4 of a Psycannon

AP 3 according to the Codex I looked in ;)

 

Anyway, what I find odd about the psycannon's special rule is the practical implications of this. Consider the following situations:

• AP 3 missile launcher vs. regular space marine (Sv 3+) ⇒ No save
  
• AP 3 missile launcher vs. terminator (Sv 2+ and 5+ invulnerable) ⇒ 2+ save
  
• AP 2 plasma gun vs. terminator (Sv 2+ and 5+ invulnerable) ⇒ 5+ save
  
• AP 3 psycannon vs. regular space marine (Sv 3+) ⇒ No save
  
• AP 3 psycannon vs. terminator (Sv 2+, no invulnerable save) ⇒ 2+ save
  

So the only thing the psycannon is really effective against, is models that only have an invulnerable save, since that gets negated and they have no save left. I suppose that's the intention, but it still feels weird to me …

[Gentlemanloser]

Psycannons aren't AP3. ;)

 

What I posted in the other thread aobut LotD saves;

 

The SV of a mini's profile is thier Armour Save. Irregardless of whatever Wargear they might have, as the armour save could be natural (somehow).

 

While Power Armour confers a 3+ Armour save as wargear, the LotD get a 3+ Save, as thier Armour Save characteristic on thier Profile lists 3+ (Same deal for Death Cult Assassins, etc. If they should have had only an Invulnerable Save, it sohuld have been listed as sv -/0 with the Invulnerable, as usual, listed in thier entry). As they don't have Power Armour in thier Wargear, we must assume their etherial warp based nature confers a natural 3+ Armour Save, in addition to the Invulnerable save they are given by thier unit entry.

 

From 'Zero Level Characteristics;

 

A warrior with an Armour Saving Throw of '-' has no armour save at all.

 

 

From Armour Saves in the Shooting Section;

 

If a model has a Sv value of 6 or better on its profile, <snip> This is called an Armour Saving Throw

[nighthawks]

yes, but the LotD are specifically noted as having a saving through that "is invulnerable". until FAQed, this means they have a 3+ inv. save, and no armour save. specific overides general.

 

edit: spelling

[Blood Scorpion]

the AP4 of a Psycannon

AP 3 according to the Codex I looked in :P

 

Anyway, what I find odd about the psycannon's special rule is the practical implications of this. Consider the following situations:

• AP 3 missile launcher vs. regular space marine (Sv 3+) ⇒ No save
  
• AP 3 missile launcher vs. terminator (Sv 2+ and 5+ invulnerable) ⇒ 2+ save
  
• AP 2 plasma gun vs. terminator (Sv 2+ and 5+ invulnerable) ⇒ 5+ save
  
• AP 3 psycannon vs. regular space marine (Sv 3+) ⇒ No save
  
• AP 3 psycannon vs. terminator (Sv 2+, no invulnerable save) ⇒ 2+ save
  

So the only thing the psycannon is really effective against, is models that only have an invulnerable save, since that gets negated and they have no save left. I suppose that's the intention, but it still feels weird to me …

 

Definately AP4, and their main intention is to be used against enemies with only an Invulnerable Save such as Demons (hence the army name). In your example above vs a Regular SM, the SM does get it's 3+ Armour Save therefore.

 

They are still a 3 shot S6 weapon, and against targets with a 4+ save or worse, or light vehicles they can be very effective, but truly come into their own on those few occasions when you fight Demons or in the case of this discussion the LotD.

 

Edit: Oh, and the LotD have an Invulnerable Save only - "Their saving throw is invulnerable". No Armour Save I'm affraid!

[Mal]

Ok ok people, I know how to work AP values :P

 

The only mistake I made (please remember I dont haev my codex with me atm) is the specifics of the LotD saves, I thought it was a 3+ AND a 3+ inv at which point the inv wouldn't count against psycannons but they would get the 3+ armour save as the psycannon IS only AP4. But still... they get a 4+ FNP save either way.

[Gentlemanloser]

yes, but the LotD are specifically noted as having a saving through that "is invulnerable". until FAQed, this means they have a 3+ inv. save, and no armour save. specific overides general.

 

edit: spelling

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. ^_^

 

Nothing in thier entry implies they replace thier Armour save. Nothing in the codex contradicts the Big Books rules on stat lines. Their save is invulnerable, but can be both an Armour save and an Invulnerable save.

 

Necron Wraiths are a good example of this, as is possibly Saint Celestine (Have to check her entry, but she came to mind), whos armour gives both an armour save and an invulnerable save.

[nighthawks]

Necron Wraiths are a good example of this, as is possibly Saint Celestine (Have to check her entry, but she came to mind), whos armour gives both an armour save and an invulnerable save.

 

the wraiths were FAQed to this extent, and their codex entry states "wraiths have a 3+ invulnerable save". This is distinctly different from saying "their saving throw is invulnerable." I would have agreed before the fAQ to wraiths having both a 3+ armour and a 3+ inv. save due to this language alone.

 

st. Celestine has a 2+/4+ save due to her armour. it's not a good example at all.

[Hexx]

yes, but the LotD are specifically noted as having a saving through that "is invulnerable". until FAQed, this means they have a 3+ inv. save, and no armour save. specific overides general.

 

edit: spelling

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. :D

 

Nothing in thier entry implies they replace thier Armour save. Nothing in the codex contradicts the Big Books rules on stat lines. Their save is invulnerable, but can be both an Armour save and an Invulnerable save.

 

Necron Wraiths are a good example of this, as is possibly Saint Celestine (Have to check her entry, but she came to mind), whos armour gives both an armour save and an invulnerable save.

 

Again- nothing says they have an armour save. They have a 3+ save that is invulnerable and therefore would get hosed by psycannons.

I completely agree that GW meant for them to have an armour save, and likely will FAQ it.

 

But- by the rules- the save is only an invulnerable save, nothing in the write up suggests it's in addition to an armour save.

 

I'd certainly let anyone playing me have a regular armour save, but letting them take a regular armour save is (atm) definitely by opponents consent.

[Gentlemanloser]

Again- nothing says they have an armour save.

 

Thier stat line does.

 

It all boils down to whether you interpret "Thier save is invulnerable" to mean it replaces the 3+ armour save in thier stat line.

 

I don't, I take it as being in addition to.

 

If they wanted LotD to only have a 3+ Invulnerable save, thier profile should have been '-' under thier SV. All Invulnerable saves are detailed in a units description, or Wargear entires. All saves on profiles are by definition, Armour Saves.

[WizePapaSmurf]

Again- nothing says they have an armour save.

 

Thier stat line does.

 

It all boils down to whether you interpret "Thier save is invulnerable" to mean it replaces the 3+ armour save in thier stat line.

 

I don't, I take it as being in addition to.

 

If they wanted LotD to only have a 3+ Invulnerable save, thier profile should have been '-' under thier SV. All Invulnerable saves are detailed in a units description, or Wargear entires. All saves on profiles are by definition, Armour Saves.

 

lol

 

Their Saving Throw is Invulnerable, where does it say IN ADDITION TO ever in their description? And look at Daemons book, INVULNERABLE! rule. -

 

Yadda yadda regarding Eternal Warrior then...

 

"In addition, if the profile of a model in this army includes a Saves (Sv) Characteristic, this is their Invulnerable Save. Some models also have an armour save, but this is SPECIFICALLY NOTED separately in their entry."

 

ERGO by this logic - You don't need to show a [sv -] to represent no Armour save. No Power Armour = No Armour Save.

[Hexx]

Thank you Wize One, thought I'd put the bit from the Daemon codex in there, guess not.

 

Yes to (completely and pointlessly) repeat what was just pointed out- the entr says they have an invulnerable save, it does not make any refernce to an armour save. The rulebook says the stat (Sv) is armour save (which is I assume where people are trying to go from), but specific codexes overrule the rulebook.

 

If the entry had said "their armour save is/can also treated as invulnerable" or something along those lines you'd have a case.

It doesn't.

 

Again I assume it was meant to have both, but until it's faq'd (if ever) the LOTD only has an invulnerable save.

[Playa]

Hey,

 

I assume it was meant to have both

 

Nope - their entry on p138 does not include Power Armour under "wargear".

No PA, no 3+ PA Save. 3++ only, regardless of appearance and former rules.

It looks like they're using the Possessed marketing scheme for the new models . . .

 

 

Playa

[Praeger]

Look, it really comes down to the overall rule.

 

Specific over rides general.

 

General rule states Sv in stat line is NORMAL save and Inv saves will be noted as being placed ontop of this.

 

HOWEVER

 

This unit has a SPECIFIC rule which states that ther save is Inv. Nothing about in adition, or two saves, or changed in specific circumstances etc - their save, their whole save, is Inv.

 

Fluff reasons aside (and their are some for both views) chances are that only having an inv save was for game play.