Cluster Mines and Scout move

[Zieggenfus]

I've interpreted the rules for cluster mine detonation to take place during a movement phase - the game has started and player 1 is beginning his first turn. I recently played an opponent who interprets them to include the scout move.

 

Also, a drop pod landing in a mined piece of terrain would set off the mines during the reserves phase, before the transported marines deployed, allowing safe movement/deployment through that terrain for the rest of the turn/game.

 

Thoughts?

[eyescrossed]

I would say depends, and no.

 

Depends with the scout move; if they move INTO the terrain with the scout move it will get set off, but if they're already in it, it won't get set off.

 

I don't think the drop pod would set them off, because the drop pod isn't really moving into the terrain.

 

Games Workshop really needs to FAQ it.

[maniclurker]

Well, you're actually incorrect, eyescrossed.

 

OP: I don't have book in front of me, but if the codex says they are only set off in the Movement Phase, then that's exactly what it means. Only during the movement phase. The scout move takes place during deployment, so it wouldn't. If the entry says that units moving into the terrain, then that's what it means. Any move will set them off.

 

As to the drop pods... They will most certainly set off the mines. Vehicles count as having MOVED at cruising speed when they deep strike. And yes, following the sequence of events, the pod would take the hit, and then the squad would get out.

[eyescrossed]

Well :)

[Hexx]

The rules from the codex are pretty explicit as to how/when the mines work , they'll definitely go off during a scout move.

Mani's correct- drop pods can be used to sweep for mines..

[eyescrossed]

Double post.

[eyescrossed]

Well, lurker, you sure are manic - that's the first time I've gotten a rules thing wrong, so just so you know, you've destroyed me :P

[maniclurker]

I was mostly talking about the pod. I know the deep striking occurs at the beginning of the move phase now, so it would work. No hard feelings. I think people have better games when everyone involved are better informed about the rules. Less problems that way...

 

As the the entry... How exactly is it worded? I forgot to bring my book onboard with me.

[nighthawks]

"cluster mines are automatically triggered the first time a unit (friendly or enemy) moves into the booby-trapped terrain." P67 C:SM.

 

manic - I think that you are wrong and that scout moves, any moves, really, will trigger the mines. but again, only INTO the terrain. Hexx got it right, eyescrossed got it right.

 

as to the drop pod, I believe that deepstriking it into terrain would count as moving into it, so it would set off the mines, but the hits would be resolved against the pod, not the unit. so I agree with Hexx, again.

[Oor_Mate_vlad]

Are the scouts moving into their own mines?

 

I only ask because you'd have to be one hell of an idiot to go and set off the mine you just placed ;)

[eyescrossed]

No, we're referring to the Scout universal special move, which allows you to move before the game begins or to outflank.

[Steelmage99]

Seem obvious when looking at the wording. No specific phase is required.

 

Scout-moves into the selected terrain will set of the mines. As will deep strikes, normal moves, assault moves and fall back moves. As long as a given unit moves into the terrain for any reason the mines go off.

[eyescrossed]

So I was right!

[Zieggenfus]

OP here.

 

"cluster mines are automatically triggered the first time a unit (friendly or enemy) moves into the booby-trapped terrain." P67 C:SM.

"Mines are marked after Terrain placement, but before first Movement. "

 

So a unit that moves into the terrain sets off the mines, while a unit that deployed into the terrain and then repositions within or exits from that terrain is unaffected, correct?

 

It certainly seems clear cut, I'd agree. I don't have my dex with me but consider:

 

Is cluster mines placement designated before any deployment?

After deployment of non-infiltrators but before infiltrators?

After infiltrators but before scout move?

After all scout moves?

 

I interpret "...first Movement. " to occur sometime during first player turn on the first game turn - drop pod assault, movement phase, what ever.

I interpret the scout move to take place pre-game, a scout special that allows a final reaction to deployment prior to game start, and as such, is unaffected by any game effects.

 

This led to my reasoning that the scout move was unaffected by any cluster mine placement.

Does this line of reasoning change anything?

[Steelmage99]

I interpret the scout move to take place pre-game, a scout special that allows a final reaction to deployment prior to game start, and as such, is unaffected by any game effects.

 

The Scout move is defined as being "a normal move" and "done exactly as in their Movement phase". Many might also argue that the game start before the first movement phase. Placing terrain and deploying forces has a definite impact on the game, thus being part of the game. Anyway the game effect of "don't move any closer than 12" to enemy units" is certainly effecting the Scout move. This forces you to acces the enemy forces and use a ruler (barring bionic eyes) to make sure you don't "cheat". This, in my mind, is a game effect.

 

This led to my reasoning that the scout move was unaffected by any cluster mine placement.

Does this line of reasoning change anything?

 

No, I don't believe so. The Scout move is a move (as in; models changing positions) and when moving into area terrain containing Cluster Mines, the mines go off. The Cluster Mines don't require any other special conditions, other than moving into the terrain, to take effect.

[Oor_Mate_vlad]

Ok, you have two options here.

Option 1) Use common sense, the unit that placed the mines will know where the mines are in that area. Everyone else doesn't. Personally I'd say only the unit who placed the mines can make moves through the minefields.

 

Option 2) This is GWs favourite option for clarifying rules disputes and even shows up in the rulebook (if someone can get me a page reference I'll give you a thumbs up or a smiley grin) Roll a D6

[HiveFleetEzekial]

Except there are no rules to support option 1. So, that one kinda goes out the window...

 

If the rules say they are triggered whenever something moves over them, with no specification on game phase, or other qualifications, then they will be triggered whenever anything moves over them.

 

Common sense (which isn't so common, nor usualy sensable), logic, whatever 'seems right', does not matter. The game is plaid by the rules that exist, not what we'd like them to say. And that is the point of rules forums. To debate, discuss, hash out whatever may be unclear. Not make suggestions or give opinions that are only personal house-rulings.

[Zieggenfus]

OP again,

 

Agreed on the whole dice-off thing, if a rule is in question. I'm trying to gain a clear view of just what the rule is, hopefully to avoid the "in question" bit.

 

If it matters, I was playing Tau and had infiltrated a stealth suit team into some woods, most of my models in cover, with a drone exposed in clear terrain. My opponent placed his scout bikes 18" away, and for my scout move, I moved the exposed drone into cover. As I made this move, my opponent then claimed detonation.

 

With my understanding of the rule at the time, I claimed that we hadn't done "first Movement", and as such, the mines were not active. I still tend to believe this should be the correct interpretation, but an alternative would be that my unit wasn't entering the terrain, it was already occupying it and as such, didn't trigger the mines.

 

I think that we all agree that any unit that enters mined terrain will detonate the mines, so the final question becomes, when does a piece of terrain become mined. The rule states

 

"Mines are marked after Terrain placement, but before first Movement. "

 

There is quite a bit of activity taking place between those two instances:

 

Does terrain become mined the instant before first Movement, and not before?

After all deployment?

After infiltrators but before scout move?

After all scout moves?

 

Any/all of the above?

 

Can my opponent wait to see where I'm deploying my infiltrators, and based on that, designate the mined terrain, hoping to catch me on my scout move? Can my opponent place his infiltrators near a piece of terrain, use the scout move to enter that terrain, and then mine it to deal with a potential assault?

 

Do both? Neither?

 

like I said, trying to get some clarity.

[Oor_Mate_vlad]

I'd have given him the detonation in that case. I'd view it as after infiltration but before scout moves and view scout moves as being a free 6' in the movement phase.

 

Common sense (which isn't so common, nor usualy sensable), logic, whatever 'seems right', does not matter. The game is plaid by the rules that exist, not what we'd like them to say.

 

Except when it comes to an understandable grey area in the rules. But what the hell, I was only adding my own in-house experience to a question in the rules that cropped up during an in-house game.

[Cypher 102]

Option 1) Use common sense, the unit that placed the mines will know where the mines are in that area. Everyone else doesn't. Personally I'd say only the unit who placed the mines can make moves through the minefields.

 

In my professional experience, the people who mine or booby trap an area tend to avoid that area. I'm not going to trust my, not so reliable memory, to remember exactly where every mine is. Also these are cluster mines which give me the impression that they are just scattered around the area by some sort of dispenser rather than deliberately placed.

[ShinyRhino]

Just to muddy the waters further, I actually asked this question some time ago, but in regards to deployment setting off the mines. In my head, it didn't make any sense to me that a unit could deploy into a piece of terrain, and then allow some Scout Bikers to come along, place their mines, and then leave. I figured the mines were placed immediately after terrain was set on the table, and any unit entering the trapped terrain set them off.

 

I didn'tget any answers that convinced me one way or the other, really. I'm waiting patiently for an FAQ.

[maniclurker]

The codex says that the first time any unit moving into the terrain, whether friend or foe, will set off the mines.

 

This would include the scout move.

[Hexx]

Does everyone have the codex?

Pg 67 (as mentioned) is pretty clear how this works.

 

1) Terrain is placed

2) The scout player declares he has placed mines and writes down where they're located

3) Forces are deployed, anything deployed into said terrain at this point in time would not count for moving

4) Ya infiltrate yer sneaky stuff (still technically not moving)

5) Scout moves-(the operative word being "move") they move into the terrain, it goes boom.

 

For whatver reason (as mentioned) your own forces (incuding the scout bikers )will set these off- there's no ambiguity in the rules so no need to dice anything off.

[Steelmage99]

Thanks, Hexx.

 

To OP. What was your question again? B)

[Praeger]

****NOTE****

 

IV JUST HAD TO DELETE A FAIR NUMBER OF POSTS IN THIS THREAD.

 

HONESTLY GUYS - WHAT IS WRONG WITH ALL OF YOU? MUST YOU BICKER AND POST OF TOPIC TO HELP YOUR SELF ESTEEM?

 

READ OVER THE RULES PEOPLE, I COULD VERY WELL WARN ALL OF YOU, AND FOR SOME OF YOU THAT MIGHT BE ONE WARNING TOO MANY.

 

 

 

You have all just made my day that little bit ahrder. Thankyou so very much.