Death Guard Tactica

[DemetriiTZ]

Opposite side of the world, man; Miami. Heh.

[AkiraCho]

drag, well if you are ever going to california give me a message you can have a place to stay, it might be on my floor in the living room or the couch but its free and i have blankets!

 

um..

 

even refused flank you are saying that the front armor of a rhino (11) can shrug off rockets and laz cannons? i dont think so pal. and when you are walking through pie plates that ignore armor and wound on a 2+ how can you honestly not care. 4 laz cannons from your raiders wont save you completely from that what so ever.

 

and they ALSO have deepstrike meltas and such to ruin your day too..

[DemetriiTZ]

Well, my army deals with Guard (in general, because a TON depends on a foe's army comp., and the way the board is arranged) by huge dispersal of firepower coupled with mobility and cover saves. I have 3 Rhinos, 2 Land Raiders, and 2 Daemon Princes. My Princes are old fellows, short enough to be hidden behind Land Raiders, and each vehicle packs 7 Plague Marines.

 

If I have Turn 1, I will drive my whole army into the teeth of my enemy's guns, and blow smoke launchers. He can unload with everything he has, and he may well destroy a vehicle or two.. However, my forces will be in cover, and will Go To Ground if need be to survive ordnance blasts. If even 1/2 of my army survives his volley and retains mobility (never had IG cripple more than 3 vehicles in one round of shooting, even when he used Armored Company and cheated), he's done on Turn 2. For every vehicle you have, and every Monstrous Creature in cover, your foe's AT weapons are divided. You saturate him with targets, and further confuse him because each squad is as dangerous as the next, when it comes to close-combat. 7 Plague Marines will waste a 30 Man or 40 Man Imperial Guard squad as easily as a Daemon Prince with Warp Time. You'll be hammered on the approach, but you'll live.

 

Problem is, for him, each subsequent turn means his ordnance is restricted, as his blasts start landing too close to his own troops. By Turn 3, or Turn 4, his vehicles should be running around avoiding your Princes, or wasting shots on your vehicles, which have already deployed passengers into his lines. I've tabeled IG as early as bottom of Turn 3, whether or not they outgun me. There's a reason you very rarely see IG on the final rounds of large gaming events, GTs, etc. Keep their inaccurate firepower dispersed amongst loads of vehicles, and you will see a steep decline in their stopping power.

 

All you have to worry about are their deepstriking and infiltrating melta and Demo charges.

 

And yeah, I may go see some friends in California. If I do, I'll let you know. We'll have some beers.

[AkiraCho]

haha yeah dude, im not allowed to drink beer, girlfriend wont let me, ill be happy to buy your stuff, but yeah .. im only allowed chick drinks, what ever.

 

but as far as that strat sounds it seems pretty sound, considering we have i believe the identital list.. let me see your list ill type mine up

 

2 squads of 7 marines, power fist, 2 meltas

2 squads of 7 marines, power fist, 2 flamers

2 rhinos extra armor (one has combi bolter)

2 land raiders with demonic possession

2 princes with wings

 

i think thats all i have right now.

thats 1750. are you playing 2000?

 

i have yet to worry about Orks or Nids (both types of lists)

 

but imp guard so far has been the only thing i have had trouble with at all. correct me if im wrong but is it possible that the abundance of terrain is what is helping you out? because the games i play are pretty scarce on terrain

 

iono haha =) id be stupid to watch a game with us playing tho we have pretty close to the same list i believe...

[DemetriiTZ]

2 Land Raiders, with 2 squads of 7 Plague Marines (w/ 2x flamers, and a Powerfist Champion)

2 squads of 7 Plague Marines (No Champion) with 2x MeltaGuns, and 2 Rhinos

1 squad of 7 Plague Marines (No Champion) with 2x Flamers, and a Rhino

2 Daemon Princes, with MoN, Wings, and WarpTime.

 

 

You run a similar list to one I used to run, awhile back. I play 1850, actually. The reason I eventually dropped a Champion from the Rhino squads is because.. Well, they're close-combat supplements, and rely more heavily on special weapon use. They can run in and help a combat out, but they're primarily around to do whatever their squad is created to do. They usually leap in to 'catch' an enemy squad, which I'll then fly in a Daemon Prince to finish off. The Princes (and the army, in general) is always kept very closely packed, so each squad can support another, and so the Princes' 18'' radius can envelop the whole army. The Princes, I found, can perform the same task as the powerfist champions for any Rhino squad who needs one, only better: they strike faster, hit more often, and kill more reliably. They do what the powerfist is focused on: shredding Independent Characters, and/or ensuring the final wound total leans in my favor. They're more versatile, too; I can peek a Prince around the corner of a Raider, and draw firepower away from my vehicles.

 

They're a more efficient use of points than a Champion in every squad, but there are definitely times when I do miss a powerfist in every squad. Overall, I'm not unhappy with the decision; an extra 7 Plague Marines, another pair of special weapons, and one more vehicle in the army drastically increase the survivability of the army as a whole, add another scoring squad, etc. It is always, always good to have more squads on the board versus a high firepower enemy, than smaller numbers of powerful, upgraded squads. Your army would probably have an easier time versus an assault-based army, and a harder time versus a firepower army like Railgun Spam Tau, IG, etc.

 

And yes.. I always play with 25% Terrain on the board, minimum. Why give a foe an unfair advantage? :rolleyes:

[AkiraCho]

yeah i know exactly what you are saying, but yeah you are playing at 100 pts over what i am. i suppose in 100 additional points i would most likely do somethiong simular. however the reasoning i have behind the fists behind all squads are i use the princes usually to support the army, but also in the situations above where IG are messing with me i tend to have both princes work independently from my army and they fly over and do their own thing over there, because lets face it 2 princes in themselves are a small army.

 

so with that in mind they would tackle the part of the army that would have forced be to slog throuhg fire as thed rest of the army would deal and rend for itself. and with fists in each squad they can do so easily.

 

and i would love to have more bodies on the field believe me... i would love too but 100 pts is a big big big big deal

 

sorry for all the typos i have no contacts on....

[DemetriiTZ]

Certainly is. All of our local RTT action is 1850, however, so I have to do as the Romans do.

[AkiraCho]

come to soooocallll well go to a RTT together i havnt been to one of those since........................ 8th grade and i was a champion back then too.. i was a champion back then too

[the jeske]

hmm thats a lot of anti horde hate in your list ,even if the flamers do more wounds now , it does seem kind of a risky to not run at least one squad that can double tap. also how hard it is to play mirror matches , because you have more or less the dps , 2x2 melta and thats it.

[AkiraCho]

please explain what double tapping is.. i honestly dont understand.

 

and in a mirror match id imagine it would come down to pretty much terrain and lucky rolling because from what i understand of Demi he does the same things as me but for differant reasons but ultimately our tactics feel the same.

 

and to answer, the reason why i have lots of "anti infantry hate" is because infantry are ultimately what wins games, if you have no troops you cant capture objectives. simple as that and in 5th thats what games are deterimined by. and the game meta has change accordingly, troop choices / infantry are becoming more and more popular that they once were in previous editions. so i have to change and adapt to situation.

 

hence... the anti infantry hate.

[mad-doc]

Double tapping means using rapid fire to shoot two times.

 

Comes from 4th edition i guess because you could choose to shoot rapid fire weapon only once and then charge.

So there was the question of double tapping or not. Now its double tap or pistol&charge.

[DemetriiTZ]

From personal preferences, mostly, for me. I hate plasma. I hate being forced to rapid-fire plasma, and I feel like too many easy counters are available to keep plasma from being as effective on infantry and hard stuff as it was in 4E. I feel like, a lot of the time, plasma pings off of an enemy due to a huge abundance of cover saves, and firing all those fancy guns and doing nothing really sucks. A meltagun, on the other hand, can pop both infantry and vehicles equally effectively, and forces you to always come closer (For me, it keeps my mentality focused, and discourages hiding, and playing the waiting game of 4E Death Guard). Coming closer means a lot of those cover save issues are negated, due to proximity. The other reason is, a 12'' range means, if you can shoot 'em with your melta from the beginning of your move, you can assault.. and if your melta pings off of cover, you have the option of charging in and hiding in close combat, avoiding retaliation fire.

 

As for plasma as meta for Terminators.. Not really, anymore, with the Thunderhammer/Stormshield combo of 5E Codex: Space Marines.

 

As for flamers.. I feel like flamers more effectively do the task of a bunch of rapid-fired bolters. Catch 6 - 8 Marines with a tank shock, line 'em up, and drop a pair of flamers on 'em, and you can cook Power Armor with as much effectiveness as plasma. I'd pick 16 - 18 automatic cover-ignoring S4 AP5 hits over 2 - 4 S7 AP2 shots, which can backfire and burn me. On top of that, you can fire pistols, and charge in afterwards. To me, there's simply no versatility to a plasma gun. It either works really well and cooks what you shot at, or it fails miserably (or explodes and kills you), and you have no other options afterwards. You can't move into assault, and if you move at all next turn, your range is reduced. I actually prefer plasma in smaller games ( 1000ish or so ), where AV14 is rarer, and you can afford to spam plasma squads. Anything above 1500? Assault weapons, 100%.

 

Just my opinion, and my strategies, advice, and tactics revolve around it.

[AkiraCho]

je just about summed itup for me

 

only thing i can say is that with plasma you can irgnore it and leave them alone with 2 bolters,its cheaper, and you know what if they are going to be in cover anyway and they are gonna get a save anyway bolters arnt so bad at all.. plasma isnt evern necessary its there if you have too many points but not enought o buy anything more useful.

[AkiraCho]

oh and i wanted to add to the focus thing. with short ranged aggressive weapons. another thing is to always put them in pairs. meltas should be reserved for stronger or tougher nuts that need to be cracked.

 

flamers are obviously for basic troops or the masses. so you should keep them divided dont mix and match specials, why would you have a flamer cook a squad and when 2 flamers would spell doom have a melta kill 1 thing.

 

like wise if it were a dread and you needed it dead so you would not be died in combat, suprise a melta misses and you will be sitting there staring at a dread with a flamer

 

match up weapons so they do the job they are ment to do well, PM squads are too expensive an investment for that "jack of all trades" nonsense.

 

i dont love plasma, but they do have a special kick. however they are in NO WAY essential in a PM squad, if you have the option for other things you should always pick otherwise.

 

as demi said, cover in 5th ed is abundant. why waste points on the most expensive special gun? just let the meltas and flamers do their job.

 

 

thank you for claifying what double tapping is. hm.. i do do that occassionally. usually when i cant assault right after myself due to distance. however PMS have the gift of being able to do well double tapping or assaulting. the only times id have to say you MUST assault are against units with Furious charge.

 

but in general melee is safer to be in than ranged battles, due to the fact that there are more vicious guns out there like battle cannons and demolishers, meltas, and such. in melee all you should fear is power fists and monsterous creatures. the monsterous creature can be dealt with with firepower. and its only 1 power fist dont fret.

[nurglez]

some very good points, i used to always run my PM squads 7-10 man, champ power fist 2 plasma, and they would do all right but not great.

 

Now having 2 squads with a champ powerfist, 2 flamers and 2 squads with 2 melta, they are focused, but still able to mess up what they arent focused on.

 

totally agree with the few people above me, loving this thread :D

[AkiraCho]

if you love it so much why dont you marry it nah im kidding. but im glad you like the thread haha. ive had a problem with current plasma, why is it so darned expensive, and has anyone had real luck with it??

 

because seriously theres nothing that plasma can do that melta or flamer cant do just as well if you ask me can anyone prove me wrong or a situation where plasma was a lot better? was it worth the points?

[DemetriiTZ]

Plasma seems to have some obvious pros and cons:

 

Pro:

1. Increased range, when standing still. Ability to kill heavy infantry far beyond their operating assault range.

2. Increased number of shots, when within 12'' of an enemy. Discourages approaches by heavy, expensive infantry and MCs.

3. Matches well with bolter range, when standing still or rapid-firing.

 

Con:

1. Unable to handle certain issues.. AV14, T4 models with several wounds (no insta-death), etc. The problem immediately begs the response, " Well, everything has a shortcoming! Plasma is no different! Maybe plasma is better for killing heavy infantry! " I counter a statement like this by pointing out that any heavy infantry will usually be slow, and thus housed in a vehicle. Most vehicles carrying heavy infantry are untouchable to plasma (either practically, or literally). Assault Terminators inside a Land Raider are a fine example.

2. Increased range demands stationary stances. You have to either start the plasma gunners where they'll be for the whole game, or else spend several turns (depending on distance/how long their transport survives/how many turns they have to footslog) with reduced range.

3. Costs more than the other pair of options, and denies certain options when you use them: If fired, you cannot charge. If you move to improve firing lanes available, you sacrifice distance. If you stay still, you are at a disadvantage versus a highly mobile army. If you are faced with squads of expensive heavy infantry or numerous Monstrous Creatures, protected by high toughness, several wounds, or AV14 transports, you have no viable answer. Plasma is a meta choice, it seems, for a problem which rarely arises: Terminators (and TEQ) who footslog. A very expensive meta.

4. Plasma can (and will) blow up and kill you, incinerating a 38 point model (or more, if attached to a Plague Champion with a powerfist).

 

 

My army is only effective if and when I can close ranks with my foe; I advise melta accordingly, if you follow my practices. The reduced range isn't an issue when you're always on the move, and always ready to assault, if able. My personal stance is that a melta's reduced range is the only real 'con', and is offset by the fact that you are able to assault, and are paying less for a weapon which can kill ANYTHING in 40K. You have to ask yourself A ) How stationary you want your army to be, and how often your plasma gunners make use of the 24'' range, and B ) How often do you find yourself in situations where a melta and a charge would have solved the problem as effectively, if not more so?

[AkiraCho]

look demi, both of us use very aggressive DG armies

 

plasma is used to capturing objectives, if you are sitting a squad on the hill, obviously the best gun you can get is the plasma, but even then you dont need it, the bolter should do just fine up there for no points, and the melta and flamers should run around killing the things that plasma cant.

 

because as demi said, plasma is only useful for heavy infantry and not much else. so meltas can take care of that and so can power fists but that forces the troops to be in your face, the extra "plasma" squad should just sit back and pour fire where they can. dont bother with the gun its not necessary.

[vomitus]

Thanks for this superb tactica! It really made me think and understand why I never was really satisfied with my 3 ten man strong plasmaguns loaded Plague Marines squads, all three with champs, with fists. Dropped all of the plasmas, five units of seven now, three of them with flamers, two with melta. And two land raiders and three rhinos. I think the purpose of each unit is much clearer now. Two demonprinces have been a part of my list for a long time. Now it seems to work. Against tyranids at least...

 

What then with Eldar? 3d6 and guaranteed perils of the warp on the princes. How would you guys counter good, mobile and effective eldar lists?

 

Thanks again!

 

V

[DemetriiTZ]

An Eldar Tactica is forthcoming. As for Perils from 3d6 Psychic Tests, look at it this way:

 

Statistically, you have a 3+ chance to make a psychic test and avoid a Perils check. You then have, assuming you get nailed with Perils, a 16.6% chance of dodging the Perils (double 5+ rolls). You have a 30% chance of suffering one wound. Runes of Warding is a pain, but it's actually less effective, statistically, at stopping you from a successful use of a psychic power. An Eldar Tactica is forthcoming. :pinch:

[vomitus]

Thanks, DemetriiTZ, I think I must have rolled the wrong dice or it's just Eldar spells. Except for one game recently where I rolled as expected, in all my games against one of my regular Eldar opponents I have rolled at least one 5 and a 6. But I guess that's just crazy superstition. It will even out eventually...

 

Then again, with two princes, both scorcerors, that's a potential 20 tests in 5 turns. If the risk of suffering one wound is 30 per cent per test, the princes will suffer 6-7 wounds during those turns. So use with care...

 

I cant wiat for your Eldar tactica. Especially the mobile list is hard to cope with. 2x9 warp spiders wounds us on 3 and they jump away. Harlequins must be flamed and charged of course. But that isn't always that easy. Of course sitting in a land raider might be smart. Wraithlords are also painful. And key units each round with guide/fortune/doom...

 

V

[Obeisance]

Awesome thread.

 

Keep on writing.

 

I feel you should go more in depth about what troops-choices to take. All the other choices seem to be no-brainers.

[Latro_]

Nice tactica, I'v just dug out the DG army i never finished but have recently found a quick way to get em painted.

 

I was gonna follow the mech plan too, it just feels right in 5th ed. Prob is you get the kill points for the rhinos right? (40k is a bit shaky, been into fantasy last couple of months).

 

Anyways, Whats your take on Predator annihilators and defilers in the list? I'v got some really beefed up conversions but they just seem to be a bit rubbish in 5th ed, esp the predator. The original idea way back when(4+ years ago) was the pred provided some anti tank too offset the PM's lack of range, that seems to be a bit redundant (but perhaps not entirly so) in a mech list.

 

I'm gonna use it anyway due to how much i'v converted it, but would be nice too see ya thoughts on them and the other options open the a DG list.

 

Also summoned daemons, thought? I was considering taking a few medium sized units as extra bodies since they're so much cheaper than a PM. In a vanilla CSM army they do seem like a total waste of pts, however I can see a use in a DG army esp to add to the mess once you get close with rhinos, mobile cover saves, jumping in with a flamer rush etc.

[AkiraCho]

Oy vey! so much to say so many things to say!!!

 

Ok first thing ill start with is.

 

no brainers (recap)

1.always put 2 of the same special weapon together it gives your squad focus.

2.every squad deserves a power fist, you are paying near land raider points and this squad IS tought enough to stick around, why let it die to a monster it cant beat without a fist?

3.10 man squads are not worth it if you give them meltas, i say this because meltas = tank weapon, marines = anti infantry, go with flamers.

4.7man squads are just fine! and fluffy

5.dual flight princes are essential. for many many reasons and they are cost effective and cost friendly.

 

okay!

 

pradators, i love them, they work just fine, they do indeed give your army much needed ranged support. they can be used interchangably with the land raider. it isnt as tough but its cheaper and you can get almost 2 for the price of one raider. but they cant carry troops. over all not a bad buy, its less agressive than the raider, but it is definately there to be an additional target and distraction that cant be ignored.

 

 

eldar are painful. wraith lords must be nuked with laz cannons and meltas asap. the rest will be dealt with using power fists and counter charging demon princes and yeah demon princes can be used to intercept wraith lords.

 

flight princes can be used as an answer to warp spiders as well.

 

you NEED lazcannons to deal with eldar, be they land raider or predator (in this case the predator is better because you wont feel as bad about lance hits) until you can take down the skimmers stay away and keep your tanks at the best cover/range you can. COVER IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL FOR YOUR TANKS.

 

 

demons definately are useful, they are cheap bodies on the field. i personally dont like them because they are light weights but they are indeed cheap cheap cheap bodies that can go where you need them when you need them. they tie up LOS which can help a lot. they detract from your number of PMs tho, thats your call.

[vomitus]

What would you add in a 2000 points list? I tried out a vindicator the other day. If it wasn't for two defilers rolling really bad against my armour, it would have died early. Then again, a vindicator is a great annoyance and must be dealt with, possibly letting the rhinos and land raiders stay unharmed a little bit longer...

 

Is it better to expand your units?

A sixth unit of 5 plague marines and a rhino clocks in at 150 points exactly.

A small unit of terminators?

A greater daemon? plus...

 

DemetriiTZ and AkiraCho. What about 1500 - what would you prefer? I would probably run with two raiders and I always use two princes (maybe not in less than 1000 points though)