Brother Crassus Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 I think it's the "artist's" descision. I don't follow the "norm" with my Ravens. By the way how did you paint your Blood Ravens? Pretty simple The red was a base of merchite red foundation add in vmc flat red for highlights vmc vermillion then add an orange final highlight if you want to go that bright. wash the armor with baal red, then black-line. shoulders were vgc bleached bone with a ton of white dumped in for highlights to make it look more white than bone. black is standard. gold is vmc brass, washed with vgc brown ink, highlighted with brass then brass mixed with mithril silver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 If you read the fluffy bits in the new codex, it mentions the colors of helmets for sgts. as red, no mention of white stripes for vets. The painters have followed the instructions they were given, I think. Pg. 21 is cited as my example: "Typically, sergeants have red helmets. Veterancy is indicated by a white laurel." It can be indicated by a white Laurel but that is absent from many of the Veteran Sergeants in the new codex. The new codex material is lacking on the specific nuances of markings, which have been fully explained in Insignium Astartes. Perhaps that material has been retconned but the more likely explenation is that Mat Ward and his team just didn't do the proper research into what they were doing. Given the poor editing quality and multiple fluff mistakes in the codex this seems the most likely answer. Also, look at the overleaf picture of the second company, on pages 18-19. The sgts. that are wearing helmets are wearing red helmets without any white stripes. Not entirely conclusive, but I would assume, seeing as the codex now assumes each and every sgt. to be a veteran sgt., that it means the white stripe isn't part of the official fluff anymore. No, that's just Mat Ward's poor quality of work showing, just cause it's put into print as pictures for cripes sake, doesn't mean it's a retcon of the existing fluff. The sergeants aren't even described as Veteran Sergeants, those who clearly are such as the Vanguard and Sternguard Sergeants have white helmets instead of red, which is contradictory to the material in the 5th Edition Codex. Are you telling me that Veteran Squads now don't designate Sergeants at all? I doubt it. Now, in all fairness, the new codex doesn't mention a thing about the RG's different marking styles or what-not, which could easily lead a person such as myself to think that they would follow Codex markings/colors. So an absense of material is the same as contradictory material? Erm... no I'm afraid not, that doesn't fly. There is very little material on most Chapters of Legend in the new codex, does that mean their IA material is now overwritten? Of course not, it just means nobody bothered to include it like they did the Ultramarines, who incidentally got a large chunk of their IA copy/pasted right into the Codex. The Raven Guard IA says the Chapter follows a different marking convention, nowhere in the Codex is this contradicted. Some images of painted models in the Codex do not fit with that information, and some of the artwork doesn't either... but there's no indication of what that artwork or those models are representing, nowhere does it specifically say that those unusual colors represent a change to codex markings. In fact if the RG had adopted codex markings than both shoulder pad trims would be a specific color. They aren't. The only logical conclusion is that whoever was in charge of the GW Space Marine painter images, and the Eavy Metal team got lazy and didn't do their research as the markings shown in the codex. As incidentally the markings do not match either the normal codex form of markings or the specified form of markings used by the Raven Guard, so what are they? We could assume a lot of things, but those are just assumptions, there is no actual written confirmation that the Raven Guard markings have been changed to something else. Or here's something to think about, in the back of the 4th Edition Codex the Raven Guard army is shown with all the Assault Marines wearing red trims on their right pads, and all the Tactical Marines are wearing ORANGE on their right pads. Does that mean the Tactical Marine color has changed to Orange? NO, it just means whoever painted those models got it wrong... or had a thing for Orange... whatever, it doesn't mean it's a retcon. The entire argument for the different coloured rims being used to indicate the squad type come from the assumption that the Raven Guard pads are all part of the same company - no where on the diagrams is this indicated. ... your... joking right? What possible point would there be to have each color "specifically" assigned to a squad type if they were all different companies? Disregarding the fact that the colors just "coincidentally" happen to be the same for each squad type in the pre and post heresy parts of the diagram. Yea that's just a coincidence. That would just be stupid in the extreme, the logical assumption is that the colors represent squad types, not companies, otherwise they would all be tactical squads and it would specifically be indicated the color represented company, like all other markings diagrams do. Your interpretation twists the material in a blatantly illogical way, that I'm sorry is just plain rediculous. Vash, I'm sorry the color of my rims offended you. How about the next army I paint up will be 100% fluff marked and all, and we'll call it even? Did I say I was offended? No, I just felt it should be pointed out, I'm really interrested in the fluff and I figured I might as well point out the proper and correct method for marking Raven Guard. Honestly adding green, yellow and red trims does not in any way detract from the cohesiveness of the army, I've done it, and seen other armies do it, it works and looks good and best of all it makes the units easy to identify from a distance. It's especially helpfull to break up the monotony of a mostly black scheme and serves that purpose admirably. But if you really don't like that method then by all means do what you wish, I just wanted to make sure you were aware of the official fluffy RG markings. They are very nicely painted models after all. Personally I change official markings myself when I don't like them, my Ultramarines 5th Company has gold trims cause I felt black looked lame. Insignium Astartes says the Codex dictates markings should be regularly changed to confound the enemy, or in other words, do what you think looks good. I just like to make sure everyone is aware of the official RG markings, whether anyone chooses to use them or... not. Didn't mean to imply I didn't like the army, it's much better painted than I could manage, it's a shame your going to sell it. I'm shocked so many people jumped to the defensive as though I was trying to force you to use the IA markings with a gun held to your head, quite an over-reaction to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Kashnizel Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I think it's the "artist's" descision. I don't follow the "norm" with my Ravens. By the way how did you paint your Blood Ravens? Pretty simple The red was a base of merchite red foundation add in vmc flat red for highlights vmc vermillion then add an orange final highlight if you want to go that bright. wash the armor with baal red, then black-line. shoulders were vgc bleached bone with a ton of white dumped in for highlights to make it look more white than bone. black is standard. gold is vmc brass, washed with vgc brown ink, highlighted with brass then brass mixed with mithril silver. Thanks, I once painted BLs but my scheme was...shiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zekk_Sirius Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 ... your... joking right? What possible point would there be to have each color "specifically" assigned to a squad type if they were all different companies? Disregarding the fact that the colors just "coincidentally" happen to be the same for each squad type in the pre and post heresy parts of the diagram. Yea that's just a coincidence. That would just be stupid in the extreme, the logical assumption is that the colors represent squad types, not companies, otherwise they would all be tactical squads and it would specifically be indicated the color represented company, like all other markings diagrams do. Your interpretation twists the material in a blatantly illogical way, that I'm sorry is just plain rediculous. No, I'm not. And I don't find it illogical at all for a simple reason: colour representing company, gives them both squad-type markings and company indicators. Your method that they need two markings (the rim of the shoulderpad, and a design inside it) to make sure everyone knows what squad type they are is... well plain ridiculous. You think they should have two markings to tell everyone their a Tactical Squad, but nothing to indicate company at all? And then, when GW employs this method (oh look, all Shrike's force have red (3rd) company rims regardless of type)... you say they're doing it wrong? I agree, the diagram for the Index Astartes Raven Guard is confusing, but really, use some common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meta-ridley Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 The codex wasn't even around pre-heresy, so therefore the codex markings of red = 3rd co., green = 4th co. wouldn't have existed. The fact that the colours are the same for both the pre and post heresy for THE SAME SQUAD TYPE would therefore suggest that the colour indicates squad type. Again I reiterate the point. the codex marking sweren't around before the heresy, therefore meaning that the colours on the pre-heresy shoulders are not codex company, as these DID NOT EXIST. When a lot of the other first founding chapters have differing company and squad markings to the codex (BA, DA, SW, IH, sallies) why is it so implausible that the RG have different ones as well. We all know how much GW manage to ignore their own fluff in favour TROLC (the rule of looking cool). The guys behind the RG in the codex, as vash said, probably just thought "we'll paint them all red, that'll look cool." Remember here that the RG aren't exactly a very codex chapter. The RG actually don't have squad markings (by that I mean the arrow, cross etc.), they use the colour for quick id of suads, which would be very useful to a chapter that relies heavily on hit and run, fast tactics. Meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zekk_Sirius Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 The codex wasn't even around pre-heresy, so therefore the codex markings of red = 3rd co., green = 4th co. wouldn't have existed. The fact that the colours are the same for both the pre and post heresy for THE SAME SQUAD TYPE would therefore suggest that the colour indicates squad type. Again I reiterate the point. the codex marking sweren't around before the heresy, therefore meaning that the colours on the pre-heresy shoulders are not codex company, as these DID NOT EXIST. Right, because companies and Chapters didn't exist before the Codex, and neither did using markings to identify companies... :D When a lot of the other first founding chapters have differing company and squad markings to the codex (BA, DA, SW, IH, sallies) why is it so implausible that the RG have different ones as well. Where are their company markings then? ALL the other Chapters you mentioned have them. We all know how much GW manage to ignore their own fluff in favour TROLC (the rule of looking cool). The guys behind the RG in the codex, as vash said, probably just thought "we'll paint them all red, that'll look cool." Or maybe, just maybe you're wrong? I mean, Shrike is Captain of the 3rd Company... and oh look, his company all have red rims. Jeez, must be another GW mistake... I mean it was clearly marked how all those different colours belong to the same company... oh wait, no it isn't. But it's there because fans can never be wrong. :) Remember here that the RG aren't exactly a very codex chapter. Really? Their in the Codex: Space Marines list, they use the exact same unit types, and they were one of the Chapters that supported the introduction of Guilliman's Codex. Please, because they like to sneak around doesn't make them non-codex. The RG actually don't have squad markings (by that I mean the arrow, cross etc.), they use the colour for quick id of suads, which would be very useful to a chapter that relies heavily on hit and run, fast tactics. They do have arrows, crosses etc. The picture from their Index Astartes clearly shows this. At the end of the day, their YOUR models. You paint them however you want, and whatever you prefer. But you shouldn't walk in proclaiming the units are marked incorrectly based on YOUR interpretation. The Index Astartes: Raven Guard doesn't say which companies the different colours belong to; your interpretation is NOT fact. And neither is mine. I prefer mine because it gives them company & squad type markings, rather than having them need to mark a Tactical unit twice so they can keep up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imalwayscold Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Oh my, and to think about simple shades of the rainbow causing so much fuss! Well aside from the squabbling it is a splendid army and Im hoping to see some more posts of your Raven Guard (or any other of your well painted armys) in the near future! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Kashnizel Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I don't think Brother Cassus enjoys checking his thread to see people arguing over a color scheme. If you want to argue about it, create another thread. He likes his scheme and that's all that matters. By the way Cassus when do you think you'll post the next part of your army? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Crassus Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 I don't think Brother Cassus enjoys checking his thread to see people arguing over a color scheme. If you want to argue about it, create another thread. He likes his scheme and that's all that matters. By the way Cassus when do you think you'll post the next part of your army? Next chunk should be up shortly. I need to put some finishing touches on Shrike, the vanguard and the thunderfire cannon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Right, because companies and Chapters didn't exist before the Codex, and neither did using markings to identify companies... :rolleyes: Markings existed before the Heresy, but there's no indication that the Company Color on the shoulder pads existed, not even the pre-heresy material on the Ultramarines included such a method of marking. Company/Chapter number was represented by other forms of marking if at all. When a lot of the other first founding chapters have differing company and squad markings to the codex (BA, DA, SW, IH, sallies) why is it so implausible that the RG have different ones as well. Where are their company markings then? ALL the other Chapters you mentioned have them. Blood Angels use colored blood drops, Dark Angels Deathwing and Ravenwing lack any Company Color, the Space Wolves don't even have officially numbered companies so no trim color there either, and the Iron Hands have independant Clan Companies, so again no company color, lastly the Salamanders represent Company by the color of the Chapter Symbol the Salamander Head, 2nd Company is a White Head, 3rd is Green if I recall correctly. Or maybe, just maybe you're wrong? I mean, Shrike is Captain of the 3rd Company... and oh look, his company all have red rims. Jeez, must be another GW mistake... I mean it was clearly marked how all those different colours belong to the same company... oh wait, no it isn't. But it's there because fans can never be wrong. Um nope, in the 4th Edition Codex the army in the back with Shrike has both red and orange pads and guess what? All the Assault Marines have red, all the Tactical Marines have orange... how odd. The Raven Guard with the red pads in the Codex, does it ever say they are all members of the 3rd Company? No it doesn't... how odd, cause clearly unless it says so they must not be. Really? Their in the Codex: Space Marines list, they use the exact same unit types, and they were one of the Chapters that supported the introduction of Guilliman's Codex. Please, because they like to sneak around doesn't make them non-codex. Actually the Raven Guard are more unorthodox than just sneaking around, the whole Chapter is covert ops specialists, which is far beyond the conventions of the Codex, the Ultramarines raised hell when a few squads of Tyranid Hunting specialists were proposed, the entire Raven Guard Chapter specialises in covert warfare... if such a thing were proposed for the Ultramarines Calgar would probably have a heart attack. Not to mention further specialist units such as Shrike's Wing existed contrary to normal Codex doctrine, different markings etc. It doesn't actually take that much to be a divergent Chapter, look at the Dark Angels and Blood Angels, they aren't codex chapters yet follow the Codex more closely than the Raven Guard do in many ways. They do have arrows, crosses etc. The picture from their Index Astartes clearly shows this. Pre-heresy they did not, the idea of using specific symbols was from the Codex and appears only in post-heresy pictures, but oddly enough the colors remain the same for the particular squads... coincidence? I don't think so. At the end of the day, their YOUR models. You paint them however you want, and whatever you prefer. But you shouldn't walk in proclaiming the units are marked incorrectly based on YOUR interpretation. The Index Astartes: Raven Guard doesn't say which companies the different colours belong to; your interpretation is NOT fact. And neither is mine. Look just cause the diagram doesn't specifically say it doesn't mean its not fact, it's pretty darn obvious, I mean do I really have to tell you not to touch a stove cause it's hot? No, it's a stove, therefore it's hot, therefore you don't touch it. It's the same kind of logic, the pre-heresy markings are related to squad type, the post heresy markings keep the same colors as the squad types from the pre-heresy scheme. You can't seriously say that it's just a coincidence, that's just nonsense. Nobody said anyone MUST use the IA markings, your acting like we're holding a gun to Brother Crassus' head and forcing him to do it that way, no that's not the case. Seriously chill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Kashnizel Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Why don't we focus on the MODELS and not the shoulder pad trim. Cassus already stated that he didn't want to put any colour on the shoulder trims so lets leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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